Bible reasons supporting free will

[golfjack]

Consider the following ten Bible reasons validating the fact that God gives each individual the right to choose good or evil. Moses said to Israel, I have set before you life and death..... choose life ( Deut. 30:19).

Joohn 3:16 is the champion verse of free will: For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOEVER believes in Him ( WHICH IS AN ACT OF FREE WILL) should not perish but have everlasting life.

Ten Bible reasons supporting free will:

1. Romans 2:6-16, To say that God saves some and sends the oters to hell would make God a respector of persons, which the Bible declares He is not.

2. Malachi 3:6, Adam was given a choice in the Garden of Eden. The choice was to eat or not to eat the forbidden fruit. He chose to eat it, and angels with flaming swords drove Adam and Eve out of the garden to live under the Genesis curse If God left it up to Adam to choose in the beginning, then it is the same for every man today, for the Word declares, I am the Lord, I do not change.

3. Romans 9-11, There is not one verse in the Bible, outside of Romans chapters 9 through 11, that states exclusively God's position on the Jewish people, which is that ( Jewish) man is not a free moral agent all the days of his life either to serve God or Satan.

4. Joshua 24:15, There are Bible verses to prove that ( Gentle) man is a free moral agent: Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve.

5. Psalm 119:30, I have chosen the way of truth.

6. Isaiah 7:15, Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good.

7. Isaiah 66:3, They have chosen their own ways.

8. Matthew 16:24, If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself ( free will), and take up his cross, and follow Me.

9. 1 Cor. 7:37, Has power over his own will.

10. Rev. 22:17, Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

If divine election is true for Gentles, as some major denominations teach, why go to church? Why witness? Why evangelize? If God has already determined who is going to go to heaven and who is going to go to hell, why pray? Why read the Bible?

If divine election is true, how can you say, God is love? How can the Holy Spirit write in John 3:16 that God so loved the world....if He is going to send most of you to an everlasting hell ( see Matt. 7:13-14).

Divine election is a fact for some of the Jewish people who are a remnant according the election of grace ( Rom. 11:5). Divine election simply is not so for Gentles.

Here is something for you Reformers and Part Calvanists to chew on.


May God bless, golfjack

 

[JM]

Did these folks have a choice?

“Jehovah hath made everything for its own end; Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil,†Prov. 16:4.

“A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence; for they stumble at the word, being disobedient; whereunto also they were appointed,†I Peter 2:8.

“For there are certain men crept in privily, even they who were of old written of beforehand to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ,†Jude 4.

“But these, as creatures without reason, born mere animals to be taken and destroyed, railing in matters whereof they are ignorant, shall in their destroying surely be destroyed,†II Peter 2:12.

“For God did put in their heart to do His mind, and to come to one mind, and to give their kingdom unto the beast, until the word of God should be accomplished,†Rev. 17:17.

We also see “vessels of wrath†which by the Lord were “fitted unto destruction,†were “endured with much long suffering†in order that He might “show His wrath, and make His power knownâ€Â; and with these are contrasted the “vessels of mercy, which He afore prepared unto glory†in order “that He might make known the riches of His glory†upon them (Rom. 9:22, 23).

“God gave them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting,†Rom. 1:28; and the wicked, “after his hardness and impenitent heart treasures up for himself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,†Rom. 2:5.

“God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie,†II Thess. 2:11.

“Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish; For I work a work in your days, A work which ye shall in no wise believe, if one declare it unto you,†Acts 13:41.

“For this cause they could not believe, for that Isaiah said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and He hardened their heart; Lest they should see with their eyes, and perceive with their heart, And should turn, And I should heal them,†John 12:39, 40.

“Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the Devil and his angels,†Matt. 25:41

“For judgment came I into this world, that they that see not may see; and that they that see may become blind,†John 9:39.

“I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou didst hide these things from the wise and understanding, and didst reveal them unto babes,†Matt. 11:25.

“Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast your pearls before swine,†Matt. 7:6.

The Holy Spirit has been pleased to repeat six times over in the New Testament this passage from Isaiah (Matt. 13:14, 15; Mark 4:12; Luke 8:10; John 12:40; Acts 28:27: Rom. 11:9, 10).

“But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let you pass by him; for Jehovah thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that He might deliver him into thy hand, as at this day,†Deut. 2:30.

“For it was of Jehovah to harden their hearts, to come against Israel in battle, that He might utterly destroy them, as Jehovah commanded Moses.†Joshua 11:20.

“For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth,†Rom. 9:17 (see also Ex. 9:16)

We can be sure at least one was elected never to come to Christ, the son of perdition in John 17, he was lost for fulfill Scripture.

Non-Calvinists still have a problem to deal when they deny election. If election is based on the foreknowledge of God knowing that you would accept the Gospel, then God still created a mass of people that would only be sent to hell for not believing the Gospel. Another point, if Jesus died for everyone the God would give everyone a chance to accept the Gospel, but He doesn't. We all agree no salvation exists outside of Jesus Christ, so the many pagan nations and peoples who never heard the Gospel are left without the means by which to be saved....this is election.

"... And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? ..."

"Now when they had gone through Phrygia and the region of Galatia, they were forbidden by the Holy Spirit to preach the word in Asia" (Acts 16:6)

Just look at the way Paul was converted, he was knocked off a horse and told to go! The idea of election (as listed above in the quotations I used) is clear. We clearly see those who were not elected, hence, you have a group of elect sinners.

Did Jesus die for all (not just the elect) and then not supply a way for all to least deny the Gospel?

If you have read the Book of Romans or human works such as the Five Pionts of Calvinism by Steele or the Reformed Doctrine of Predestination by Boettner and still don't believe in election, I can do nothing.

j

 

[unred typo]

JM wrotein black)Did these folks have a choice?
unred reply (in blue): Yes, they had a choice but after they chose to act against God, he had no choice but to punish them. Did I have a choice not to answer this post? Yes, but I foolishly made the decision to get out my blue crayon and do this blow by blow. I’m back. Did you miss me, btw?

“Jehovah hath made everything for its own end; Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil,†Prov. 16:4.
This is the opposite of what you suppose. It says that God made all people, not knowing yet who would be wicked, and not preordaining their wickedness, but knowing that some would choose to be wicked, created all of them in spite of this unknown evil, knowing they could not become more powerful than himself and preordaining that those who refused to follow him would be eventually destroyed and come to an end.
.
“A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence; for they stumble at the word, being disobedient; whereunto also they were appointed,†I Peter 2:8.
The message here is if you choose to be disobedient, you are appointed to stumble and not find salvation in Christ, so choose to obey and be saved instead.


“For there are certain men crept in privily, even they who were of old written of beforehand to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ,†Jude 4.
God knew there would be followers of Satan drawn away by various temptations who would deny the Lord and lead others away as well so he warned of this long before.

“But these, as creatures without reason, born mere animals to be taken and destroyed, railing in matters whereof they are ignorant, shall in their destroying surely be destroyed,†II Peter 2:12.
People choose to be ignorant. It’s not that they are mentally or spiritually impaired but that they are so self absorbed and careless about anything but their own pleasure that they give no thought to the pain and plight of others and in fact, when they do notice, it is to take advantage of the weak and disadvantaged by robbery, murder and rape. Those acting like animals will be treated as animals.

“For God did put in their heart to do His mind, and to come to one mind, and to give their kingdom unto the beast, until the word of God should be accomplished,†Rev. 17:17.
God uses evil people to accomplish his will. It is not that he causes them to be evil, but that, because they have chosen to be evil, sends them to follow the beast as he has predicted. We have been forewarned of what is going to happen. If you don’t want to be in that doomed crowd, make up your mind now to follow Christ and not be evil.

We also see “vessels of wrath†which by the Lord were “fitted unto destruction,†were “endured with much long suffering†in order that He might “show His wrath, and make His power knownâ€Â; and with these are contrasted the “vessels of mercy, which He afore prepared unto glory†in order “that He might make known the riches of His glory†upon them (Rom. 9:22, 23).

And we also see that when these “vessels of mercy†disobey and choose to rebel, they are made into “vessels of wrath,†becoming an example of how God punishes evil without respect of persons.


“God gave them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting,†Rom. 1:28; and the wicked, “after his hardness and impenitent heart treasures up for himself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,†Rom. 2:5.

It was their evil actions that caused God to judge and punish them by giving them a mind to do things that would debase them in the eyes of others. Nebuchadnezzar was debased before all his kingdom for a time, turned into a beast, to be exalted again when his punishment was over.

“God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie,†II Thess. 2:11.
You left out the first part of this verse, “for this causeâ€Â. Verse 10 even destroys your doctrine. You unfortunately abbreviated the reference so that it was not easily looked up. Are you purposefully being deceptive and dishonest with these scriptures? Read 2 Thessalonians 2 and realize that they perished because they knew the truth but hated it and refused to accept the truth that was given to them. Do you love the truth or do you love this evil doctrine more?

“Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish; For I work a work in your days, A work which ye shall in no wise believe, if one declare it unto you,†Acts 13:41.
Those who refuse to accept the truth because it interferes with their selfish prideful plans, ironically, will be deceived.

“For this cause they could not believe, for that Isaiah said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and He hardened their heart; Lest they should see with their eyes, and perceive with their heart, And should turn, And I should heal them,†John 12:39, 40.

Read verses 37 and 38. They are being blinded to fulfill a prophesy about the days of Christ. If they had not been blinded to his greatness, they would have tried to make him a king and he came to die and establish a spiritual kingdom not an earthly one. After he rose and the message was preached, some of the same blinded ones understood and were saved. Paul, being the foremost example.

“Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the Devil and his angels,†Matt. 25:41
Exactly. The eternal fire was not prepared for man.


“For judgment came I into this world, that they that see not may see; and that they that see may become blind,†John 9:39.

He came to do miracles and still be rejected. That was the plan. The blindness was temporary.


“I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou didst hide these things from the wise and understanding, and didst reveal them unto babes,†Matt. 11:25.

The Pharisees were wise and understanding of how to manipulate people so God hid the mission of his Son from them. He also hid the true situation from Satan and his minions or “they would not have crucified the King of Glory.†Only a few were blessed to know what was really happening while Jesus was being rejected of men.

“Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast your pearls before swine,†Matt. 7:6.
What are you saying? “I thank thee Father that I am not as one of these swine?â€Â

The Holy Spirit has been pleased to repeat six times over in the New Testament this passage from Isaiah (Matt. 13:14, 15; Mark 4:12; Luke 8:10; John 12:40; Acts 28:27: Rom. 11:9, 10).

Their eyes have they closed. Sounds like they didn’t want to see. They only wanted a temporal savior who would make their lives easier and more worry free. Like the woman at the well who later repented and realized her greatest need was spiritual, these same people could have been saved at a later time, according to how they responded to the calling of the Spirit on their hearts.

“But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let you pass by him; for Jehovah thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that He might deliver him into thy hand, as at this day,†Deut. 2:30.
Sure. God can do that. Does do that on occasion. If it were not something unusual that God had done, it would not have been mentioned. Notice it does not say God allowed him to have no chance to repent of it, nor does it say he was preordained to hell for doing it. His own deeds probably rendered him guilty of crimes worthy of death long before he was put in this position.

“For it was of Jehovah to harden their hearts, to come against Israel in battle, that He might utterly destroy them, as Jehovah commanded Moses.†Joshua 11:20.
Sure. They are being punished and drawn to their own destruction like a moth to the flame. God could have caused them to die in their sleep of terminal chicken, but instead he chose to give them enough guts to come to battle and give a needed faith boost to Israel’s army.

“For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth,†Rom. 9:17 (see also Ex. 9:16)
Yes, God sure knows how to pick them. Pharaoh’s most willful child comes to the throne. It was not the firstborn, for we know he didn’t die of the plague. Just to be sure he didn’t back down or whimp out, God made his heart hard to the obvious danger he was in by messing with the God of all creation. Notice the purpose was to frighten the world and make his name known as a witness to all so that they might believe in him.


We can be sure at least one was elected never to come to Christ, the son of perdition in John 17, he was lost for fulfill Scripture.
He was, no doubt, a doomed soul who was reprieved from an early grave and given a mission of perdition. When God sees that you’re hopeless, you’re outta here, unless he can use you to fulfill some deed of evil that will cause others to see the light. I believe the term is ‘living on borrowed time.’ Dead man walking. Any number of men could have been chosen for his role as betrayer of Christ. He fit the part best.

Non-Calvinists still have a problem to deal when they deny election. If election is based on the foreknowledge of God knowing that you would accept the Gospel, then God still created a mass of people that would only be sent to hell for not believing the Gospel. Another point, if Jesus died for everyone the God would give everyone a chance to accept the Gospel, but He doesn't. We all agree no salvation exists outside of Jesus Christ, so the many pagan nations and peoples who never heard the Gospel are left without the means by which to be saved....this is election.
That’s why I rejected all that nonsense. People are given a chance to follow Christ by the Holy Spirit speaking to their hearts, if they have not heard the gospel. The laws are written on their hearts and they are all taught of God to love one another, which is the message that Christ brought that must be accepted. God is love, and he that dwells in love, dwells in God and he in them. Throughout the world we see some dwell in love, while others dwell in hate.

"... And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? ..."
And how does this in any way remotely prove the theory of predestination? They only need a preacher to tell them that they are indeed forgiven. God himself teaches us to love and forgive one another and he doesn’t need us or a book to do that. When you have doctrines like TULIP, they are better off without your preaching.

"Now when they had gone through Phrygia and the region of Galatia, they were forbidden by the Holy Spirit to preach the word in Asia" (Acts 16:6)
And how does this in any way remotely prove the theory of predestination? They were probably not ready for Paul’s preaching since he is hard to be understood. Another preacher was probably already at work and Paul’s misunderstood words may have confused them just as Calvin’s words have clouded so many hearts.

Just look at the way Paul was converted, he was knocked off a horse and told to go! The idea of election (as listed above in the quotations I used) is clear. We clearly see those who were not elected, hence, you have a group of elect sinners.
And how does this in any way remotely prove the theory of predestination? Paul was chosen to preach for the same Jesus he once persecuted. Good choice, since Saul was zealous for God but ignorant of the truth of who Jesus was. Once he knew that Jesus was the Son of God, he was zealous for him as well. If anything, Paul’s conversion disproves the way you view election.

Did Jesus die for all (not just the elect) and then not supply a way for all to least deny the Gospel?
I have explained how Jesus died for all and made it possible for all to be reconciled by that death by following the teachings of Christ and repentance of their sin and forgiveness of others through the Holy Spirit leading those who don’t even know his name but know him personally by the laws written on their hearts and the witness of the same Spirit confirming the living word of God that brings us to conviction and fellowship in love.

If you have read the Book of Romans or human works such as the Five Pionts of Calvinism by Steele or the Reformed Doctrine of Predestination by Boettner and still don't believe in election, I can do nothing.

I believe in election, but not in the way you have so wrongly defined it. Jesus was elected to bear the sin of the world, Israel was elected to be a witness of God to the world, Moses was elected to lead the children of Israel out of Egypt, John the Baptist was elected to prepare the way of the Lord, Samson was elected to avenge the oppression of the Philistines, Jonah was elected to go to Nineveh, and many others too numerous to mention. Only a relative few are chosen for specific things. Some people who were sealed by the Spirit while Jesus was preaching, were believers who had been blinded to prevent the Lord from being the cause of a civil uprising to put him in as an earthly King.

None, no not one, are chosen before they were born to be condemned for eternity. You won’t find that in scripture unless you twist it to mean that. If you want to follow the human works that teach such blasphemy, go ahead. But what profit would it be to teach such drivel even if it were true? So sinners can shake their fist at such an unjust god? Who would blame them? Please explain of what possible good it is to tell people who are not “chosen†that they aren’t “chosen� Of course, that would be the ‘good news’, wouldn’t it? The bad news is there’s nothing they can do about it. Good grief. What a monster your god is.

Sorry for the length of this post. If people would just pick out one or two examples of their best scripture proofs instead of trying to overwhelm the would-be opponents with a discouraging mountain of often repetitious and unrelated verses, it would make these topics more interesting to participate in. I think the idea of the redundant post is to dominate by ‘monotomizing’ the debate. (Yeah, I just made it up.) It makes one wonder if some people don’t really want/expect an answer and would rather just remain unchallenged.
:-D not today....

 

[JM]

I made myself the promise not to get entangled in fruitless debates over the Doctrines of Grace, so I decided to hold off a little a let the critics speak their minds and then respond. Sorry for taking so long.

Consider the following ten Bible reasons validating the fact that God gives each individual the right to choose good or evil. Moses said to Israel, I have set before you life and death..... choose life ( Deut. 30:19).

Will do, but lets deal with Deut. 30 first. The Holy Spirit spoke thru Moses these words, “blessing and curse†and it is with these simple words we come to understand the context of v. 19. Clearly Moses is speaking of the Law I think we all agreed on this point. However, I disagree with the idea being presented, that being we can keep the Law as a means of salvation. The purpose of the Law is not salvation, but to show us our sin, it is a school master to bring us to Christ, not save us from our sins. The only folks in the Bible that please God please God by faith for without faith no one pleases God, the only folks in the Bible that do God’s will are those who are regenerated/born again believers. If we allow this v. to stand as the op suggests then faith is not required for salvation, rather, the following of the Law is what leads to eternal life.

Joohn 3:16 is the champion verse of free will: For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOEVER believes in Him ( WHICH IS AN ACT OF FREE WILL) should not perish but have everlasting life.

Word means many things. When the Michael Jackson verdict was announced a few years back the news anchor said, “the whole world is watching while this trail comes to it’s end…†Was the whole world really waiting to hear the verdict? Common sense tells us to interpret the text in context, it’s one verse in a big Bible, you need to qualify the use of the word.

Ten Bible reasons supporting free will:

1. Romans 2:6-16, To say that God saves some and sends the oters to hell would make God a respector of persons, which the Bible declares He is not.

False. Romans 2 is teaching that not only the rich or wise are chosen, the poor and down trodden are as well. God is no respector of persons when it comes to their earthly status.

2. Malachi 3:6, Adam was given a choice in the Garden of Eden. The choice was to eat or not to eat the forbidden fruit. He chose to eat it, and angels with flaming swords drove Adam and Eve out of the garden to live under the Genesis curse If God left it up to Adam to choose in the beginning, then it is the same for every man today, for the Word declares, I am the Lord, I do not change.

How much freedom of will Adam had is always under question because he was made, not born, without the stain of sin. To say we have the same ability to make choices that Adam has is to ignore a mass of scripture and the historical understanding of original sin. [Don’t forget the Church at large agreed with Augustine on original sin.] When God declare that He doesn’t change, He is speaking of His nature, the redemptive plan layout in scripture does include changes according to the decrees and will of God unless you believe Christians are to follow the ceremonial Law? Didn’t think so.

3. Romans 9-11, There is not one verse in the Bible, outside of Romans chapters 9 through 11, that states exclusively God's position on the Jewish people, which is that ( Jewish) man is not a free moral agent all the days of his life either to serve God or Satan.

Genesis 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me: but God meant it unto God, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.
Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.
Proverbs 19:21 There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.
Acts 4:27-28 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

You get the picture. God is always and forever Lord over all.

4. Joshua 24:15, There are Bible verses to prove that ( Gentle) man is a free moral agent: Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve.

The statement was made in a rhetorical sense, to a crowd of mixed Israelites, some were believers and some were not. Those who belong to God will produce fruit worthy of their calling, those who belong to their father the devil will produce fruit worthy of their calling.

5. Psalm 119:30, I have chosen the way of truth.

When a person is raised from spiritual death to spiritual life [this is what it means to be born again], they’re set free [indeed]. They have spiritual eyes to discern what is good and what is evil, “not by the free will of man, as left to itself, but under the influence and by the direction of the Spirit and grace of God; whereby a soul sees a preferableness in Christ to every thing else, and which determines the choice of him.†GILL

6. Isaiah 7:15, Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good. 8. Matthew 16:24, If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself ( free will), and take up his cross, and follow Me. 9. 1 Cor. 7:37, Has power over his own will.

I see you’re having trouble understanding what the Bible teaches concerning man, so please allow me to explain. All men are inhibited by a sinful nature which inhibits them from being able to believe or repent. Quote: The person who believes in free grace has no argument with the truth that sinners are responsible. What he denies is that God requires no more than man is able to do. For instance, God requires perfect obedience to His law from those who possess no ability or desire to obey it (Romans 8:7). The Bible does teach that man has a choice and that he acts freely in the exercise of that choice. The issue concerns whether a person, controlled by a sinful nature, will ever make the proper choice. The Bible teaches that man's will is bound and controlled by his sinful nature; so that he cannot and will not choose Christ, believe the gospel, or forsake sin unless God, in sovereign grace, changes his nature (John 3:19-21, 6:44, 6:65; 1 Corinthians 1:18, 2:14; Romans 3:11).[/quote] Once a person is set free from sin as the Psalmist was, he is free indeed. [Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.] In the Bible Study forum you’ll find a few posts about the power of indwelling sin in the life of the believer. Paul explains in Romans 7, “For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.†The apostle also calls it a law of sin. These passages are speaking to born again believers.

7. Isaiah 66:3, They have chosen their own ways.

Yes! Sinful man acts sinfully, you got it. When man “acts freely†it’s in accordance with his nature, which is sinful.

10. Rev. 22:17, Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

The problem is finding a person who desires to come to Christ who is still unregenerate…but Rev. 22 is speaking to the “Bride†the Church. You didn’t quote the whole passage.

If divine election is true for Gentles, as some major denominations teach, why go to church?

A simple, Biblical answer, it’s a mark of a true believer, “we have known that we have passed out of the death to the life, because we love the brethren; he who is not loving the brother doth remain in the death.†1Jo 3:14 We fellowship with our brothers and sisters.

Why witness? Why evangelize?

We love God and we are commanded to, “go into all nations.†We are the instrument, the tool with which God uses to bring in His elect.
Quote: 1) Because God has commanded it. 2) Because we believe that God has ordained the means of bringing many sons to glory as well as the end. 3) Evangelism gives Calvinists the glorious opportunity to praise the God whom they believe unconditionally elected them to salvation. 4) Evangelism gives us the opportunity to unburden our souls for the lost. 5) Evangelism gives us an opportunity to serve God. 6) Evangelism gives us an opportunity to bear reproach for the name of Christ.

If God has already determined who is going to go to heaven and who is going to go to hell, why pray?

Phi 2:13 “for God it is who is working in you both to will and to work for His good pleasure.†If God cannot control the freewill of man influencing them to come to Christ, why do we pray to Him at all to save the lost?

Why read the Bible?

Because you love God and you want to get to know Him.

If divine election is true, how can you say, God is love?

God is also eternal, faithful, foreknowing, good, holy, immutable, impartial to man's earthly status, incomprehensible, infinite, jealous, pure justice, longsuffering, merciful, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, righteous, self-existent, self-sufficient, sovereign, transcendent, truth, wise and wrathful. To place one attribute over another ignores the majesty of God almight.

How can the Holy Spirit write in John 3:16 that God so loved the world....if He is going to send most of you to an everlasting hell ( see Matt. 7:13-14).

The same question needs to be answered by the freewillers. Can God who loves the entire human race send most of them to hell for not accepting His free gift?

Divine election is a fact for some of the Jewish people who are a remnant according the election of grace ( Rom. 11:5). Divine election simply is not so for Gentles.

The remnant spoken of are the elect of God found among national Israel.

Here is something for you Reformers and Part Calvanists to chew on.

Not much to chew on.

May God bless, golfjack

Peace,

jm

 

[JM]

Unred display a reluctance to give up his tradition by inserting the idea of “choice†in the scriptures posted. I’ll be as brief as possible, this will be my last post in this thread and it’s not a matter of being “gutless†but not being able to stomach the logical inconsistencies I’m forced to read.

Did these folks have a choice?
unred reply (in blue): Yes, they had a choice but after they chose to act against God, he had no choice but to punish them. Did I have a choice not to answer this post? Yes, but I foolishly made the decision to get out my blue crayon and do this blow by blow. I’m back. Did you miss me, btw?

What you posted is based on the assumption of freewill, you haven’t proven that man can act contrary to his nature, and then you attempt to limit God by posting, “he had no choice but to punish them.†The will is created by God, although you “feel†as if your actions are truly free, you responded to my post on impulse. As for missing you, I’ve been gone as well, lol.

“Jehovah hath made everything for its own end; Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil,†Prov. 16:4.
This is the opposite of what you suppose. It says that God made all people, not knowing yet who would be wicked, and not preordaining their wickedness, but knowing that some would choose to be wicked, created all of them in spite of this unknown evil, knowing they could not become more powerful than himself and preordaining that those who refused to follow him would be eventually destroyed and come to an end.

Sorry, but you added the idea of God not knowing. The text reads, “Jehovah hath made everything for it’s own end…†We know that God created everything, for what? “it’s own end.†We are then told “even the wicked for the day of evil.†The text cannot be any more clear. You added to the text to fit your presupposition of God not knowing. Comparing the AV rending with Young’s Literal we see the AV is correct and should be understood as “God made everything for His purpose, yes, even the wicked who work for the day of evil.†Don’t take my word for it, look it up, the idea of God not knowing was inserted into the text. This is true about the “son of perdition†who was lost to fulfil Scripture, wicked angels and wicked men.
.

“A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence; for they stumble at the word, being disobedient; whereunto also they were appointed,†I Peter 2:8.
The message here is if you choose to be disobedient, you are appointed to stumble and not find salvation in Christ, so choose to obey and be saved instead.

Where is the choice? Again, you inserted this into the text, you’re tampering with Holy Scripture. God help me! I’ll quote the text once again, “1Pe 2:8 and a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence--who are stumbling at the word, being unbelieving, --to which also they were set;†YLT We can see those who are unbelieving were set to that unbelief. There is no idea of choice being offered in this text.

“For there are certain men crept in privily, even they who were of old written of beforehand to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ,†Jude 4.
God knew there would be followers of Satan drawn away by various temptations who would deny the Lord and lead others away as well so he warned of this long before.

Young’s reads, “…long ago having been written beforehand to this judgment…†The idea is plan, it’s very plan. Dr. John Gill wrote, “…a prophecy concerning them must be founded upon an antecedent ordination and appointment of God…†The EMT translates this passage in line, “...marked out for this condemnation…†Very, very plan. The ungodly were marked out for this [being ungodly, turning from grace, giving into lasciviousness, denying Jesus Christ] condemnation…that was their choice based on their ordination which they were appointed to it.

“But these, as creatures without reason, born mere animals to be taken and destroyed, railing in matters whereof they are ignorant, shall in their destroying surely be destroyed,†II Peter 2:12.
People choose to be ignorant. It’s not that they are mentally or spiritually impaired but that they are so self absorbed and careless about anything but their own pleasure that they give no thought to the pain and plight of others and in fact, when they do notice, it is to take advantage of the weak and disadvantaged by robbery, murder and rape. Those acting like animals will be treated as animals.

The text tells us why they were ignorant; they were “born mere animals.†They are fallen sinful man acting within the limits of their nature and God, without allowing you to go beyond what is wrote, allows them to remain in this state.

“For God did put in their heart to do His mind, and to come to one mind, and to give their kingdom unto the beast, until the word of God should be accomplished,†Rev. 17:17.
God uses evil people to accomplish his will. It is not that he causes them to be evil, but that, because they have chosen to be evil, sends them to follow the beast as he has predicted. We have been forewarned of what is going to happen. If you don’t want to be in that doomed crowd, make up your mind now to follow Christ and not be evil.

If you would’ve stopped with the first sentence, all would be fine, but then you continue with a notion I didn’t present or suggest. That being, God causes evil. This passages deals with what God did, He “put in their heart to do His mind.†This gives us the idea of God directing the heart and mind, “until the word of God should be accomplished,†or the will of God be done by God’s directing. The Red Herring is the idea that God causes us to sin, I’d love to interact with you in the future on this topic, but I’m still learning and wouldn’t be able to offer much of a classic Reformed position.

We also see “vessels of wrath†which by the Lord were “fitted unto destruction,†were “endured with much long suffering†in order that He might “show His wrath, and make His power knownâ€Â; and with these are contrasted the “vessels of mercy, which He afore prepared unto glory†in order “that He might make known the riches of His glory†upon them (Rom. 9:22, 23).
And we also see that when these “vessels of mercy†disobey and choose to rebel, they are made into “vessels of wrath,†becoming an example of how God punishes evil without respect of persons.

Yes, the context of the “vessels of mercy†is directly related to, “which He prepared beforehand to glory.†And, “before having done anything good or evil that God’s purpose in election might stand.†Romans 9:11 God’s purpose, not man’s purpose. Prepared BEFOREHAND to glory, not based on the works we perform, or by instrument in which we are saved.

“God gave them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting,†Rom. 1:28; and the wicked, “after his hardness and impenitent heart treasures up for himself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,†Rom. 2:5.
It was their evil actions that caused God to judge and punish them by giving them a mind to do things that would debase them in the eyes of others. Nebuchadnezzar was debased before all his kingdom for a time, turned into a beast, to be exalted again when his punishment was over.

Romans 1:28 is perfect example of God restraining the sinful nature of man and then removing His common grace to allow man to be as bad as they really want to be. God was in control before He gave them up, God is in control after by allowing them to sin according to their fallen nature. [see also “..marked out for this condemnation…â€Â]

“God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie,†II Thess. 2:11.
You left out the first part of this verse, “for this causeâ€Â. Verse 10 even destroys your doctrine. You unfortunately abbreviated the reference so that it was not easily looked up. Are you purposefully being deceptive and dishonest with these scriptures? Read 2 Thessalonians 2 and realize that they perished because they knew the truth but hated it and refused to accept the truth that was given to them. Do you love the truth or do you love this evil doctrine more?

Let’s allow the scripture to interpret scripture and not unred’s unread opinion on the passage. Rather then “destroy†the Biblical doctrine of Grace it shows us the sinful face of man. You’ll notice a reoccurring theme bring presented in this post, man is fallen and acts according to that fallen nature…until a work of God removes the heart of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh natural man “is a slave to sin.†Verse 10 and 11 illustrates more then God’s permission for man to sin but the voluntary willingness of the sinner to sin. “For the carnal man receives not the things of the spirit,†it is while in this natural state that God sends a delusion, “giving them up to a reprobate mind.†The Calvinist understanding of freedom of the will is simple, we can act according to our nature, that’s it. If we are not yet born again we sin and we sin willingly.

“Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish; For I work a work in your days, A work which ye shall in no wise believe, if one declare it unto you,†Acts 13:41.
Those who refuse to accept the truth because it interferes with their selfish prideful plans, ironically, will be deceived.

Plain and simple, they in no wise believe even when it’s declared to them. In the natural fallen state we are selfish and prideful. You haven’t made a case from this passage for total libertarian freewill.

“For this cause they could not believe, for that Isaiah said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and He hardened their heart; Lest they should see with their eyes, and perceive with their heart, And should turn, And I should heal them,†John 12:39, 40.
Read verses 37 and 38. They are being blinded to fulfill a prophesy about the days of Christ. If they had not been blinded to his greatness, they would have tried to make him a king and he came to die and establish a spiritual kingdom not an earthly one. After he rose and the message was preached, some of the same blinded ones understood and were saved. Paul, being the foremost example.

Exactly. They were blinded by God for His purpose.

“Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the Devil and his angels,†Matt. 25:41
Exactly. The eternal fire was not prepared for man.

Ahhhh, I knew my study of the Law would help in understanding the New Testament. According to Jewish law anything permanently condemned and committed to death was called "accursed.†This same idea is being applied to the wicked sinner and their sentence of eternal death. They are without Christ and Lawbreakers.

“For judgment came I into this world, that they that see not may see; and that they that see may become blind,†John 9:39.
He came to do miracles and still be rejected. That was the plan. The blindness was temporary.

Where in this passage does it say it was temporary? Without changing the subject, you did open the door for elaboration, lets look at another passage on “temporary blindness.†Romans 11:25 should help shed light on this topic when we read, “…blindness in part is happened…†speaking of national Israel. No matter which way you slice it blindness results in souls continuing in sin as we find with national Israel who rejects Christ [the only way of salvation] to their own destruction.

“I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou didst hide these things from the wise and understanding, and didst reveal them unto babes,†Matt. 11:25.
The Pharisees were wise and understanding of how to manipulate people so God hid the mission of his Son from them. He also hid the true situation from Satan and his minions or “they would not have crucified the King of Glory.†Only a few were blessed to know what was really happening while Jesus was being rejected of men.

We agree. The “things†being hide were the teachings of Jesus Christ unto salvation.

“Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast your pearls before swine,†Matt. 7:6.
What are you saying? “I thank thee Father that I am not as one of these swine?â€Â

We see Jesus restricting the teachings of the faith. The “dogs†are unbelievers, heathens if you will, same goes for the “swine.†We are to be cautious when rebuking these folks for they are not saved, “for they that are after the flesh do mind things of the flesh†and the natural mind cannot be subject to the Law of God. In short, the natural man recieveth not the things of the spirit because they are in there natural state and it is useless to argue this point with them.

The Holy Spirit has been pleased to repeat six times over in the New Testament this passage from Isaiah (Matt. 13:14, 15; Mark 4:12; Luke 8:10; John 12:40; Acts 28:27: Rom. 11:9, 10).
Their eyes have they closed. Sounds like they didn’t want to see. They only wanted a temporal savior who would make their lives easier and more worry free. Like the woman at the well who later repented and realized her greatest need was spiritual, these same people could have been saved at a later time, according to how they responded to the calling of the Spirit on their hearts.

Matthew 13 tells us they were hearing but didn’t understand, looking but didn’t see with the reason being Christ hide the teachings in parable. Mark 4 tells us the same thing with the qualifier, “lest they understand.†The teaching was hide so they couldn’t understand, only those with spiritual eyes could understand. John 12 adds to our understanding by writing, “He blinded.†The He is God. Acts 28 speaks of the wiliness of the sinner to sin, God not only allows this to happen, He gives them up to it without trying to rescue them…â€Âtheir eyes they have closed†because “He blinded†them.

“But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let you pass by him; for Jehovah thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that He might deliver him into thy hand, as at this day,†Deut. 2:30.
Sure. God can do that. Does do that on occasion. If it were not something unusual that God had done, it would not have been mentioned. Notice it does not say God allowed him to have no chance to repent of it, nor does it say he was preordained to hell for doing it. His own deeds probably rendered him guilty of crimes worthy of death long before he was put in this position.

The idea that it was unusual is based on what is not written to us in the Holy Record. It doesn’t say it was unusual. You can’t make a case on what is not written. I could easily say, using your logic that it was well within the normal acts of God, so much so, that it is mentioned only rarely [but it isn’t mentioned only rarely]. This is because His people knew His ways. Like I wrote you couldn’t make a case on what isn’t mentioned in scripture. You thinking also calls into question what the Church [all orthodox Christian Churches] has taught since the time of Christ, that God acts outside of His own nature, in “unusual ways†that are contrary to essence.

“For it was of Jehovah to harden their hearts, to come against Israel in battle, that He might utterly destroy them, as Jehovah commanded Moses.†Joshua 11:20.
Sure. They are being punished and drawn to their own destruction like a moth to the flame. God could have caused them to die in their sleep of terminal chicken, but instead he chose to give them enough guts to come to battle and give a needed faith boost to Israel’s army.

We are in agreement. They were drawn into battle like a “moth to the flame†and “He chose†to give Israel faith.

“For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth,†Rom. 9:17 (see also Ex. 9:16)
Yes, God sure knows how to pick them. Pharaoh’s most willful child comes to the throne. It was not the firstborn, for we know he didn’t die of the plague. Just to be sure he didn’t back down or whimp out, God made his heart hard to the obvious danger he was in by messing with the God of all creation. Notice the purpose was to frighten the world and make his name known as a witness to all so that they might believe in him.

Consider what has been written on this passage. Unred admits that God overrules the heart of Pharaoh, making it hard enough to perform the will of God. This means man’s freewill isn’t free anymore. With God hardening Pharaoh’s heart we can conclude that God withdraws the “wooing†of the Holy Spirit, thus leaving the sinner to his own end, which is to continue sinning. Does God desire the salvation of Pharaoh after hardening his heart and withdrawing the Spirit? Nope.

We can be sure at least one was elected never to come to Christ, the son of perdition in John 17, he was lost for fulfill Scripture.
He was, no doubt, a doomed soul who was reprieved from an early grave and given a mission of perdition. When God sees that you’re hopeless, you’re outta here, unless he can use you to fulfill some deed of evil that will cause others to see the light. I believe the term is ‘living on borrowed time.’ Dead man walking. Any number of men could have been chosen for his role as betrayer of Christ. He fit the part best.

Unred, using my e-sword Bible search program to scan several translations of the Bible, I failed to find “living on borrowed time.†[kidding] The son of “utter destruction†was lost to fulfil scripture…that’s how it reads.

Non-Calvinists still have a problem to deal when they deny election. If election is based on the foreknowledge of God knowing that you would accept the Gospel, then God still created a mass of people that would only be sent to hell for not believing the Gospel. Another point, if Jesus died for everyone the God would give everyone a chance to accept the Gospel, but He doesn't. We all agree no salvation exists outside of Jesus Christ, so the many pagan nations and peoples who never heard the Gospel are left without the means by which to be saved....this is election.
That’s why I rejected all that nonsense. People are given a chance to follow Christ by the Holy Spirit speaking to their hearts, if they have not heard the gospel.

Not everyone has heard the Gospel, so what you’re saying is that God speaks to the hearts of man outside the preaching of His word, men are saved outside of the Gospel. That’s the logical conclusion of what you wrote.

The laws are written on their hearts and they are all taught of God to love one another, which is the message that Christ brought that must be accepted.

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. What you are suggesting is pure fancy on your part. The law being written on our hearts are only for those who are members of the New Covenant. Universalism heretical and is a no, no on this forum.

God is love, and he that dwells in love, dwells in God and he in them. Throughout the world we see some dwell in love, while others dwell in hate.

Again, there is only one way of Salvation and that is thru Jesus Christ. At the end of Matthew we are told to make disciples of all nations, that means we are to instruct them in the faith, so they know who Jesus Christ is. Living in “love†doesn’t save for without faith it is impossible to please God and we remain children of wrath. You’re boarding on Universalism and performance based salvation.

"... And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? ..."
And how does this in any way remotely prove the theory of predestination? They only need a preacher to tell them that they are indeed forgiven. God himself teaches us to love and forgive one another and he doesn’t need us or a book to do that. When you have doctrines like TULIP, they are better off without your preaching.

Think about it for a while. If God desires all men to come to Him thru Christ [this is the Biblical and Historical Gospel] then He has failed to make that offer known to every single person in the world.

"Now when they had gone through Phrygia and the region of Galatia, they were forbidden by the Holy Spirit to preach the word in Asia" (Acts 16:6)
And how does this in any way remotely prove the theory of predestination? They were probably not ready for Paul’s preaching since he is hard to be understood. Another preacher was probably already at work and Paul’s misunderstood words may have confused them just as Calvin’s words have clouded so many hearts.

It has become obvious that you are more interested in talking about Calvin and building a case on straw men then dealing with the passage. The Holy Spirit did not allow the Gospel to be preached in Asia. To claim “another preacher was probably already at work†in Asia is outside the scope of the text and cannot be supported by the Holy Bible which should be a clear indication of your willingness to resort to tradition then build your doctrine on the word of God.

Just look at the way Paul was converted, he was knocked off a horse and told to go! The idea of election (as listed above in the quotations I used) is clear. We clearly see those who were not elected, hence, you have a group of elect sinners.
And how does this in any way remotely prove the theory of predestination? Paul was chosen to preach for the same Jesus he once persecuted. Good choice, since Saul was zealous for God but ignorant of the truth of who Jesus was. Once he knew that Jesus was the Son of God, he was zealous for him as well. If anything, Paul’s conversion disproves the way you view election.

You wrote it yourself, “Paul was chosen.†Again, you really need to think about what you wrote, perhaps look up the word chosen using Thayer’s Greek. Paul was a sinner who prior to regeneration persecuted the Church with true sinful zeal and he loved his work. After his regeneration Paul was converted by God.

Did Jesus die for all (not just the elect) and then not supply a way for all to least deny the Gospel?
I have explained how Jesus died for all and made it possible for all to be reconciled by that death by following the teachings of Christ and repentance of their sin and forgiveness of others through the Holy Spirit leading those who don’t even know his name but know him personally by the laws written on their hearts and the witness of the same Spirit confirming the living word of God that brings us to conviction and fellowship in love.

If you explained it I missed it. What I did get from your post thus far: 1) we don’t need a knowledge of Christ to be saved because the New Covenant is written on everyone’s heart, 2) the Holy Spirit draws all men but isn’t able to convince anyone, 3) as members of the New Covenant we don’t need to know what the details of the covenantal agreement are as long as we “love.†That’s not the Gospel.

If you have read the Book of Romans or human works such as the Five Pionts of Calvinism by Steele or the Reformed Doctrine of Predestination by Boettner and still don't believe in election, I can do nothing.
I believe in election, but not in the way you have so wrongly defined it. Jesus was elected to bear the sin of the world, Israel was elected to be a witness of God to the world, Moses was elected to lead the children of Israel out of Egypt, John the Baptist was elected to prepare the way of the Lord, Samson was elected to avenge the oppression of the Philistines, Jonah was elected to go to Nineveh, and many others too numerous to mention. Only a relative few are chosen for specific things.

Huh? You just gave a list of people and things that were elected. I agree with that list. Then you go on to say “only a relative few are chosen for specific things.†Huh? Think about the list you posted. God declares the “end from the beginning†I guess He just doesn’t know any of the details then, riiiiiiight.

Some people who were sealed by the Spirit while Jesus was preaching, were believers who had been blinded to prevent the Lord from being the cause of a civil uprising to put him in as an earthly King.

Interesting. Please post your Biblical support for this idea that we may have a look see.

None, no not one, are chosen before they were born to be condemned for eternity.

Even the Roman Catholics, Arminians, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, and Calvinists agree that God knows who is saved and who isn’t before He created the world. This is why Arminianism is considered orthodox Christianity. What you suggest is call Open Theism which has been rejected by the Church for 2000 years. God knows the future, period.

You won’t find that in scripture unless you twist it to mean that.

As shown above it is not I who twists the scriptures.

If you want to follow the human works that teach such blasphemy, go ahead.

Unred = Open Theist.

But what profit would it be to teach such drivel even if it were true?

The sovereignty of God.

So sinners can shake their fist at such an unjust god?

Unjust by whose standards? You’re judging God.

Who would blame them? Please explain of what possible good it is to tell people who are not “chosen†that they aren’t “chosen� Of course, that would be the ‘good news’, wouldn’t it? The bad news is there’s nothing they can do about it. Good grief. What a monster your god is.

Reading the Bible is time well spent. Paul answers unred’s objection with, “As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will heardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?†Those who blame God do not understand the Doctrines of Grace. Paul answers unred’s objections with clarity, charity and simplicity.

Sorry for the length of this post. If people would just pick out one or two examples of their best scripture proofs instead of trying to overwhelm the would-be opponents with a discouraging mountain of often repetitious and unrelated verses, it would make these topics more interesting to participate in. I think the idea of the redundant post is to dominate by ‘monotomizing’ the debate. (Yeah, I just made it up.) It makes one wonder if some people don’t really want/expect an answer and would rather just remain unchallenged.

It would seem no matter where the believer of Grace turns he is surround by Arminians and Open Theists trying to drown out God’s sovereignty like the bleating of the sheep from Animal Farm. “We can’t be as bad as the Bible says we are!†Is there slogan and they repeat it as often as they can. What more proof is need to the self-centeredness of man then this objection? The post above was meant to sway you, tilt you in the direction of libertarin freewill, that man is in control of his future, but his is false. Freewill is sin. Anytime man exercises what he believes to be freewill it is used for sin. Man is a slave to sin until God regenerates them. Where is God’s choice? Why is God not given any power to decide who is saved and who isn’t? It’s sad when we are reduced to man’s tradition over the word of God.

not today....;

Sempar Reformanda!

jm

 

[unred typo]

[quotedb21]not today.…:

Sempar Reformanda!

Jm[/quotedb21]
Right… you’re going to get away with that mess of confused doctrines this time because I’m going on a little adventure and won’t be able to deal with it as I would like to. I see your main method of drowning your opponents in mountains of religious rhetoric mixed with regurgitated scripture is still your preferred defense for your cherished errors. No problem. But I’m not doing another blow by blow with my blue crayon anyway since I see how in your reply you have not retained the color of my answers and have made a confusing issue even more obscure. After over 5,000 posts, it seems you should know this by now. Or maybe you do.

JM wrote:It would seem no matter where the believer of Grace turns he is surround by Arminians and Open Theists trying to drown out God’s sovereignty like the bleating of the sheep from Animal Farm. “We can’t be as bad as the Bible says we are!†Is there slogan and they repeat it as often as they can. What more proof is need to the self-centeredness of man then this objection? The post above was meant to sway you, tilt you in the direction of libertarin freewill, that man is in control of his future, but his is false. Freewill is sin. Anytime man exercises what he believes to be freewill it is used for sin. Man is a slave to sin until God regenerates them. Where is God’s choice? Why is God not given any power to decide who is saved and who isn’t? It’s sad when we are reduced to man’s tradition over the word of God.

I’m not an “Arminian,†or Open Theist. When it comes to labels, I’m more of ‘a man without a country’, since I prefer to be a stranger and pilgrim to this earth’s religions. I am not without God, however. My God is more gracious and merciful than yours. He provided a way for all to be saved. No one is left out, no, not one.

The Bible doesn’t say we are as bad as you say it does. It says we would have been lost without the blood to remove our sin, not that we are totally depraved. Those who make no effort to love one another, but only follow their own evil desires at any cost of another’s suffering, are wicked and godless. Even these, we are told, may turn from their wickedness and be accepted by God. The fact that God calls us to repent is proof enough that we are capable of doing it. Your god is so dense that he would ask a turtle to fly and not give it wings.

Where is God’s choice? God has sovereignly chosen that man’s own choice will determine his fate. Man is a slave to whom he chooses to obey. God has freed all men from the power of Satan, and written the laws of love on their hearts and given the Holy Spirit to interpret them in their lives, so they are without excuse. If you continue to follow Satan when you have been bought with a price to serve the Lord, it’s your own fault. If you resist the devil, he will flee. If you think man is spiritually dead and unable to hear the gospel, why do you think God spoke to us on a human level instead? He became flesh to communicate his love to us and make the Spirit available to all, not just a few chosen ones. If anyone doesn’t hear, it’s because he doesn’t want to. If he doesn’t want to it is because he has chosen to put his own desires and pride in place of obedience to God. God has called those who will obey. If you refuse to obey, he didn’t call you.

 

[JM]

I couldn't resist...it's called a rebuttal. I used scripture and logic, you didn't like it, it's not my fault.

‘a man without a country’

The idea that we are without a theological designation is naive. If you don’t like the label, that doesn’t mean you don’t fit the description. Example: if you believe in libertarian freewill, conditional election, unlimited atonement, God the Holy Spirit can be effectively resisted and that you can fall from Grace and lose your salvation…you my friend, are an Arminian. If you believe the first four are true you’re an Amyraldian, etc.

A theological label does exist for you.

If it looks like a duck, acts like a duck, walks like a duck and squawks like a duck…it’s a duck.


:

Just found this and wanted to add it: "And for the umpteenth time, that makes as much sense as saying "I am neither a Republican nor a Democrat! I'm blue!" Category error..."

http://aomin.org/

:

 

[AnglicanaEcclesia]

Consider the following ten Bible reasons validating the fact that God gives each individual the right to choose good or evil.

Is it possible for people to keep the Law perfectly?

 

[unred typo]

Jm wrote:A theological label does exist for you.
If it looks like a duck, acts like a duck, walks like a duck and squawks like a duck…it’s a duck.


Really you may call me whatever you wish. I have no prejudice against ducks. But if I’m not a democrat and you call me a republican does that mean I have to vote that way? I guess your label vocabulary is as limited as your atonement. You are a farmer who divides all his crops into 2 categories, ‘profitable’ and ‘Mama’s idea.’ Or a drill sergeant who divides the entire population into ‘Marines’ and ‘ballerinas’. I see that you can dance around the truth. Does that make you a ballerina?

Thanks for the link, too, JM. I gleaned a couple of verses there. I want you to take a good look at these two gems:
"You hate all who do iniquity" the Psalmist tells us (Psalm 5:5), and "the one who loves violence His soul hates" (Psalm 11:5).

What kind of unconditional atonement does God give to those whom he hates? None. It’s all conditional. I know you wanted to be special but I have to warn you, it is a farce. You will be judged by your works, not your election. If you want to be forgiven, you must turn from your wickedness and follow Christ. Then you will be walking in God’s love and not under his wrath. What is free and unconditional is the blood. It washes away all sin, and completely cleanses every sinner who repents and continues in his walk of following Christ.


While I'm away, you can chew on these:
2 Chronicles 7:14
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Ezekiel 18:21
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Ezekiel 18:24
But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Ezekiel 18:27
Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

Here God makes an oath on his own life that he tells the absolute truth:
Ezekiel 33:11
Say unto them, As I live, says the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn you, turn you from your evil ways; for why will you die, O house of Israel?

That's enough for now.


Jm wrote:I couldn't resist...it's called a rebuttal. I used scripture and logic, you didn't like it, it's not my fault.

Actually, I loved it and I can’t wait to take each and every point and snap the end off. Unfortunately, I can’t be around for a few days. I’ll be bach. You be pop rock. I only have 2 labels.

:-D

 

[JM]

Really you may call me whatever you wish. I have no prejudice against ducks. But if I’m not a democrat and you call me a republican does that mean I have to vote that way? I guess your label vocabulary is as limited as your atonement. You are a farmer who divides all his crops into 2 categories, ‘profitable’ and ‘Mama’s idea.’ Or a drill sergeant who divides the entire population into ‘Marines’ and ‘ballerinas’. I see that you can dance around the truth. Does that make you a ballerina?

None of this needs a response.

(Psalm 5:5) (Psalm 11:5)

You miss quoted, “The foolish shall not stand in they sight: thou hatest all the workers of iniquity.†The context is the foolish, like the foolish virgins who lacked saving faith. The quote from Psalm 11 also lacks context. The verse gives us two groups of people, the righteous who God trieth and the the wicked who love violence. Are believers ever called wicked? Nope.

If you want to be forgiven, you must turn from your wickedness and follow Christ. Then you will be walking in God’s love and not under his wrath. What is free and unconditional is the blood. It washes away all sin, and completely cleanses every sinner who repents and continues in his walk of following Christ.

“The ignorant Arminian doesn’t know the difference between Calvinism and Hyper-Calvinism.†Martin Lloyd Jones.

I can’t figure out if you are willingly confusing Hyper-Calvinism with Calvinism or you honestly just don’t understand the difference.

2 Chronicles 7:14

You can’t be serious? You highlighted the “if†and missed the context of “my people†and “called by my name.†Those who are called by God’s name will in fact pray, seek God and turn from wicked ways. They are called.

Ezekiel 18:21

The problem is finding those in scripture that will turn from their sins and keep the statues of the Mosaic Covenant on their own steam.

This is impossible for two reasons:
1) no one can keep the statues perfectly, “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;†and “For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.â€Â

2) no one can come to Christ unless first called, “Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.†And “And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. “

You have to be called and those who are called are in fact raised on the last day.

Ezekiel 18:24 Ezekiel 18:27

Once again you show your ignorance of Calvinist doctrine. Election doesn’t equate salvation; please see my thread on Arminianism vs. Calvinism where you can read a few things about what we actually believe instead of posting straw men to argue with. Election will ultimately result in salvation, election is “unto salvation†and not salvation itself. Quote: “…"die" in Ezekiel 18 does not mean "damnation" just as "live" does not mean eternal life. The chapter is discussing temporal rewards and punishments, not the eternal state. It is directed towards the "house of Israel" and concerns its current "Babylonian captivity" and the coming Babylonian destruction of Jerusalem (verse 31).
The people are claiming their captivity and the coming destruction are due to their ancestors’ sins, not their own (verse 2). Ezekiel is correcting their misconception and telling them that they are being judged for their own sins (verse 4). But God will relent if they "repent and turn from their transgressions" (verse 30).†[end quote]

Here God makes an oath on his own life that he tells the absolute truth:

Huh?

Ezekiel 33:11

Your theology doesn’t offer any answer. Why did God create a mass of people knowing they would never accept His offer of salvation, only to be sent to hell for their unbelief? We both view Eze. 33:11 as a fact.

That's enough for now.

I’ve had a little free time to type up rebuttals etc., but I’m not going to be able to respond to everything you find by using a Bible search program to look up ords such as “if.†Look up each verse in context, pray for guidance and wisdom.

Actually, I loved it and I can’t wait to take each and every point and snap the end off. Unfortunately, I can’t be around for a few days. I’ll be bach. You be pop rock. I only have 2 labels.

Enjoy your time away.

 

[jgredline]

Here is where Calvinism begins to fall apart. Only the 5.0 calvinst seem to believe that there is no free will. Many people call it puppet master theology where God is pulling the strings of everyone of us. Eve did not have a choice in the matter as to weather or not she would eat the orange off of the tree.... God sat there and pushed the devil into eve and then God sent an Angel to hold open her mouth and jammed it into her while another Angel made her chew and swallow it.

2 corinthians 8:3 KJV 3 For to their power, I bear record, yea, and beyond their power they were willing of themselves;

The single Greek word for ''willing of themselves'' is αὐθαίρετος This Greek word authairetos means; voluntary, of free choice, of one’s own accord




Philemon:14 KJV But without thy mind would I do nothing; that thy benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but willingly.

Philemon: 14 ESV but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own free will.

Philemon:14χωρίς without. σός γνώμη ἠθέλησα θέλω. ποιῆσαι ποιέω. ἀνάγκη κατὰ ἀν τὸ ἀγαθόν ᾖ εἰμί. ἑκούσιος κατὰ ἑκ.

εἰμί ἑκούσιος willing, κατὰ ἑκ voluntarily, of one’s own free will.

 

[guibox]

I haven't read all the incredibly lengthy posts here on the matter but I would like someone to explain to me the serious problems with the 'no free will' argument like I'm a three year old...


1) If man has no free will then why did Adam choose to disobey and was punished for eternity for it. Was free will taken away after sin? If not, then Adam and the whole human race was punished for God's will being done


2) If Christ came to die to ransom the world, and if man has no free will then it would only be fair and true if ALL mankind was saved. No free will is only just and fair if no one is lost

3) The fact that there are two sides shows that either some choice must be made or God has deliberately set His children to be burned eternally.

4) Why would Christ come to eradicate 'sin' for all the sinners of the world, if He was going to condemn some to hell anyway?

And finally...

5) What kind of a God would create man, cause Him to fall, condemn Him to an eternally burning hell that He created for the sole express purpose of punishment when God doesn't give man the chance to choose life and be saved from sin?

So..either you believe in Universalism or man must have the choice. If not, God is worse then the crooked casino manager who has rigged everything for the patrons to lose.

 

[JM]

For the record, jg, you’re not a Calvinist. You’re theological view is inconsistent with the Doctrines of Grace as taught and preached by historical Calvinism.

Here is where Calvinism begins to fall apart. Only the 5.0 calvinst seem to believe that there is no free will.

Quick suggestion, view the info thread I started on Arminianism vs. Calvinism, this should help you better understand Calvinism from a Calvinist perspective and not from Norm Giesler or Dave Hunt’s flaw understanding.

This was posted in the thread : 3) The term free will needs to be defined to avoid confusion. Calvinists will either affirm it or deny it, depending on what they think you mean. This sometimes leads to charges of contradictions. Consult the standard Calvinist Confessions e.g. the Westminster Confession of Faith Chapter 9 for a defining of terms.

Many people call it puppet master theology where God is pulling the strings of everyone of us.

Straw man argument. Who are the “many?†As I posted before and I’ll probably have to post a million more times, man sins because he wants to sin…it’s his nature. God doesn’t force anyone to sin. God doesn’t force anyone to have faith, but once born again the sinful soul is replaced with a living heart of flesh where the spiritual offer of the Gospel can be understood. Once this happens man runs to God without God forcing them.

Eve did not have a choice in the matter as to weather or not she would eat the orange off of the tree.... God sat there and pushed the devil into eve and then God sent an Angel to hold open her mouth and jammed it into her while another Angel made her chew and swallow it.

You’ve mentioned in the past that you’ve studied Calvinist and Reformed theology but you are unable to communicate what we believe. We can willingly follow Christ once we are born again and set free from sin, what you suppose these verses to say is based on the faulty premise that Calvinism denies freewill…please, keep reading.

I haven't read all the incredibly lengthy posts here on the matter but I would like someone to explain to me the serious problems with the 'no free will' argument like I'm a three year old...

This may help you understand, it’s short and sweet, unlike my post which is long.

Quote: When a person makes the bold claim that human beings have a 'free will' then you may want to ask them to define terms by asking,"Free from what?" "Free from sin?", "Free from God's decree?" No, neither. So what do people actually mean when they claim man has a free will? I think many persons mean to say that man is free from external coersion. In this we all can agree, but just because someone is free from coersion does not mean his will is free.
There are other ways in which man's will is not free. If the natural man make choices BY NECESSITY then he also lacks a kind of freedom. We might want to consider whether the Bible uses the expression 'freedom' to describe any fallen man. And the answer is no, not UNTIL Christ sets us free (Rom 6). Jesus says that prior to grace, persons are 'slaves to sin'. And, last time I looked, a slave is not free. If man is in bondage to a corruption of nature, as the Scripture attests,then he is not, in any sense, free as the Bible defines it. That is, until the grace of God in Christ sets
him free. It would be correct to say man HAS A WILL and that his choices are VOLUNTARY (not coerced) but this does not make the choices free. Fallen man chooses sin of NECESSITY due to a corruption of nature, and this is just as much a form of bondage of the will from which we need to be set free by Christ, and a more properly biblical way of expression. Just because we make these choices, of necessity, does not alleviate our responsibility. If we borrow $5 million and squander it in a week of wild living in Las Vegas [like our condition of debt after the fall], our inability to repay the debt does not alleviate us of any responsibility to do so (see Rom 3:20). So I contend that whenever speaking about the concept of "free will," because of the confusion surrounding it, we should only define freedom as the Bible does: that man's will is not free, but rather is in bondage to sin. Clearly the Bible affirms that apart from a supernatural and merciful work of the Holy Spirit to change our naturally hostile disposition to God, no person would ever receive Christ (John 6:65).
And Just as water does not rise above its source, so unspiritual men do not think or act spiritually (1 Cor 2:14). - J.W.H

1) If man has no free will then why did Adam choose to disobey and was punished for eternity for it. Was free will taken away after sin? If not, then Adam and the whole human race was punished for God's will being done

It’s not that man doesn’t have a will, the Bible tells us that man cannot act outside of his fallen nature.

2) If Christ came to die to ransom the world, and if man has no free will then it would only be fair and true if ALL mankind was saved. No free will is only just and fair if no one is lost

I can tell you didn’t read my post! Some are drawn to Christ, not all, because those drawn will be raised up on the last day. John 6

3) The fact that there are two sides shows that either some choice must be made or God has deliberately set His children to be burned eternally.

Either way, God created some men that He knew would not choose Him, He created them knowing He was going to send them to hell.

4) Why would Christ come to eradicate 'sin' for all the sinners of the world, if He was going to condemn some to hell anyway?

You can have it both ways. If Christ eradicated sin for all sinners then all are without sin and no one is sent to hell

5) What kind of a God would create man, cause Him to fall, condemn Him to an eternally burning hell that He created for the sole express purpose of punishment when God doesn't give man the chance to choose life and be saved from sin? So..either you believe in Universalism or man must have the choice. If not, God is worse then the crooked casino manager who has rigged everything for the patrons to lose.

Paul answers unred’s objection with, “As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?†Those who blame God do not understand the Doctrines of Grace. Paul answers unred’s objections with clarity, charity and simplicity. It’s important to read the posts before making a post many of these questions would have been avoided if you would’ve read them.

So..either you believe in Universalism or man must have the choice. If not, God is worse then the crooked casino manager who has rigged everything for the patrons to lose.

Arminianism leads to Universalism, Calvinism doesn’t.

"Whilst a man is persuaded that he has it in his power to contribute anything, be it ever so little, to his salvation, he remains in carnal self-confidence; he is not a self-despairer, and therefore is not duly humbled before God, he believes he may lend a helping hand in his salvation, but on the contrary, whoever is truly convinced that the whole work depends singly on the will of God, such a person renounces his own will and strength; he waits and prays for the operation of God, nor waits and prays in vain . . ." - Martin Luther

"...in saying that human actions can be “uncaused,†[as libertarians do] it attributes to man ultimate causality; but in Christianity, only God is the first cause." - John Frame

I beg you to read the longer posts, get out your Bible, and read!

Peace,

jm

 

[jgredline]

For the record, jg, you’re not a Calvinist. You’re theological view is inconsistent with the Doctrines of Grace as taught and preached by historical Calvinism.

JM
With all due respect, Thank you !! This is a compliment.....

I have studied reformed theology and I have studied armenianism theology as well. In fact I grew up in an aremenian church. And it is with this understanding that I have come away in the middle but do lean twords the reform side. Perahps 3 points if that. Does this make me a Calvinist, To some maybe, but to others no. As for me I choose to call myself a bible believing Christian...
Perhaps a calminianist or a as my close friends call me a ''Charasmatic Calvinist'', what ever the lable, so long as I am not a Hyper Calvinist or a 5 point Calvinist, thats cool with me....

Now as for my view on Salvation. This is simple.
I am saved by Grace through faith and there is nothing I can do to earn it.
It is a Free Gift......

Let me put it another way....
God predestined me before the foundation of the earth to be one of the elect and God knowing I would pick him, he created me with free will to choose him and thus he saved me by grace through faith that was given to me by the Holy Spirit........:roll: Because God will save whom he wil save....

 

[jgredline]

I haven't read all the incredibly lengthy posts here on the matter but I would like someone to explain to me the serious problems with the 'no free will' argument like I'm a three year old...


1) If man has no free will then why did Adam choose to disobey and was punished for eternity for it. Was free will taken away after sin? If not, then Adam and the whole human race was punished for God's will being done


2) If Christ came to die to ransom the world, and if man has no free will then it would only be fair and true if ALL mankind was saved. No free will is only just and fair if no one is lost

3) The fact that there are two sides shows that either some choice must be made or God has deliberately set His children to be burned eternally.

4) Why would Christ come to eradicate 'sin' for all the sinners of the world, if He was going to condemn some to hell anyway?

And finally...

5) What kind of a God would create man, cause Him to fall, condemn Him to an eternally burning hell that He created for the sole express purpose of punishment when God doesn't give man the chance to choose life and be saved from sin?

So..either you believe in Universalism or man must have the choice. If not, God is worse then the crooked casino manager who has rigged everything for the patrons to lose.

Guibox
I am in complete agreement with your post here.
I too will be looking forward to someone answer your questions.

 

[JM]

JM
With all due respect, Thank you !! This is a compliment.....

You're welcome. :-D

I have studied reformed theology and I have studied armenianism theology as well. In fact I grew up in an aremenian church. And it is with this understanding that I have come away in the middle but do lean twords the reform side. Perahps 3 points if that. Does this make me a Calvinist, To some maybe, but to others no. As for me I choose to call myself a bible believing Christian...

Fair enough. But are you from Armeninia the country? or are you writting about the theological position of Arminianism?

Perhaps a calminianist or a as my close friends call me a ''Charasmatic Calvinist'', what ever the lable, so long as I am not a Hyper Calvinist or a 5 point Calvinist, thats cool with me....

Norm's term "Calminian." That'll work, it's becoming more popular due to the Systematic Theology of Giesler. I happy to see that you notice a difference between 5 point Calvinism and hyper Calvinism.

Now as for my view on Salvation. This is simple.
I am saved by Grace through faith and there is nothing I can do to earn it.
It is a Free Gift......

Amen.

Let me put it another way....
God predestined me before the foundation of the earth to be one of the elect and God knowing I would pick him, he created me with free will to choose him and thus he saved me by grace through faith that was given to me by the Holy Spirit........:roll: Because God will save whom he wil save....

Clearly understood.

Peace and God bless you brother. This is an in house debate and always will be.

 

[jgredline]

Arminianism leads to Universalism, Calvinism doesn’t.
jm

I would love to hear you with your own words explain this to me ''Arminianism leads to Universalism''and I am sure others on the board would like to hear this as well....
Please don't give me a link to some other theologian, explain this to me in simple terms.
Thanks jg

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

I haven't read all the incredibly lengthy posts here on the matter but I would like someone to explain to me the serious problems with the 'no free will' argument like I'm a three year old...

Guibox, maybe we can get a new definition for "whosoever" in John 3:16 in the process as well. :-D

 

[JM]

No problem.

Logically speaking, if Christ died to take away the sins of the world, and the term “world†meaning as you suggest, every single person whoever lived, then everyone’s sins are forgiven. In Hebrews 10 we see that Christ made a one time offer for sin v. 12 that always result in them being “perfected for ever them that are sanctified.†Hebrews 10:17-18 goes on to say the one time offer results in the remission of sin.

Biblically speaking, if Christ died for the every single person that ever lived they now have remission of sin and will not be punished. This is Universalism.

These only two ways of dealing with this, and I don’t believe they’re valid or Biblical options, 1) you can ignore it or 2) you can become an open theist.

Peace,

jm

PS: Who are the "whosoever wills?" Paul tells us the natural man is hostile to God and does not seek God...so it can't be the natural man.

 

[Drew]

Logically speaking, if Christ died to take away the sins of the world, and the term “world†meaning as you suggest, every single person whoever lived, then everyone’s sins are forgiven.

This statement is not quite correct. Speaking strictly logically, the statement would be correct if the following condition is also satisified: Christ's death is fully sufficient to achieve the taking away of a person's sin. I do not see how this has been established. Obviously we can imagine that this might not be the case. So the claim above is not valid unless and until this other condition is also shown to be true.

But the other condition might not be true. The following is a possible state of affairs:

1. Jesus died with the purpose of saving all men.

2. A free will act of acceptance is required in order to "seal the deal" - if this is so, then Jesus' death is not fully sufficient for achieving salvation.

3. Not all men make this free will act of acceptance

4. Therefore not all men are saved and universalism is avoided.

If a Biblical case can be made that "Christ'x dying for person X" is fully sufficient to ensure the salvation of X - no other conditions of any kind need be satisfied - then I would agree with the claim I have quoted.