Bible Study Bible Scriptures/Parables/Situations - Patience & Self-Control

[Guest]

I would like to focus my efforts and studies on patience & self-control this year. Does anyone have any scriptures/parables/situations in the Bible to share. I would love to learn about these particular fruits. I'm new to this section, so bear with me. ty friends - urk

 

[Agape]

I would like to focus my efforts and studies on patience & self-control this year. Does anyone have any scriptures/parables/situations in the Bible to share. I would love to learn about these particular fruits. I'm new to this section, so bear with me. ty friends - urk

Patience and self-control are not "fruits" but manifestations of ONE fruit of the Spirit.

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. (Gal 5:22-23).

In Greek the word for "fruit" is "karpos" and it is in the singular.
See text analysis here http://biblos.com/galatians/5-22.htm

So there are nine manifestations of the fruit of the Spirit, not nine fruits of the spirit.

Traditionally, these nine character qualities have been divided into three triads.
1) First, there are three qualities that join us to God: love, joy and peace.
2) The second triad of qualities reaches out to those around us: patience, kindness and goodness.
3) The third triad includes three qualities that describe our inner character: faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

 

[Agape]

PATIENCE

Patience (3115)(makrothumia [word study] from makros = long, distant, far off, large + thumos = temper, passion, emotion or thumoomai = to be furious or burn with intense anger) is literally long-temper (as opposed to "short tempered), a long holding out of the mind before it gives room to action or passion. It describes a state of emotional calm or quietness in the face of provocation, misfortune or unfavorable circumstances.

Makrothumia - 14x in 14v - Ro 2:4; 9:22; 2 Cor 6:6; Gal 5:22; Eph 4:2; Col 1:11; 3:12; 1 Tim 1:16; 2 Tim 3:10; 4:2; Heb 6:12; Jas 5:10; 1 Pet 3:20; 2 Pet 3:15

When a believer is walking in the Spirit and not fulfilling the desires of the flesh, he or she is empowered with an inner supernatural steadfastness even in the face of provocation. This long fuse is a Christ like attitude for as Peter reminded his readers our Lord Jesus Christ in spite of...

being reviled, ...did not revile in return; while suffering, ...uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him Who judges righteously (1Pe 2:23-note)

Comment: The Spirit will enable us to walk in His steps! We cannot manifest this attitude in our own strength but in submission and yieldedness to His Spirit!
Makrothumia is the capacity to be wronged and not retaliate. It enables us to bear injury without at once avenging ourselves. It is the ability to hold one's feeling in restraint or bear up under the oversights and wrongs afflicted by others without retaliating. It is manifest by the quality of forbearance under provocation. It is used of God's patience toward sinful men (Ro 2:4-note) and of the attitude which Christians are to display.

Patience is the spirit which never gives up for it endures to the end even in times of adversity, exhibiting self-restraint such that it does not hastily retaliate a wrong.

Vine says makrothumia is the opposite of anger. It follows that a lack of patience often leads to wrath or revenge.

Makrothumia is often used in the OT to translate the Hebrew phrase ('erekh 'appayim) which is literally “long of nose†(or “breathingâ€), and, as anger was indicated by rapid, violent breathing through the nostrils, “long of anger,†or “slow to anger.†This Hebrew phrase ('erekh 'appayim) and the LXX translation as makrothumia (and the cognates makrothumos, makrothumeo) is included in the catalog of His attributes that runs through the OT like a refrain, a God "slow to anger" (13 occurrences of this phrase in the OT = Ex 34:6; Nu 14:18; Neh 9:17; Ps 86:15; 103:8; 145:8; Pr 14:29; 15:18; 16:32; 19:11; Joel 2:13; Jonah 4:2; Nah 1:3).

source: http://www.preceptaustin.org/galatians_522.htm

 

[About the Son of God]

Patience and self-control are not "fruits" but manifestations of ONE fruit of the Spirit.

hmmm.....
"ONE": http://www.thefreedictionary.com/one

1. Being a single entity, unit, object, or living being.
2. Characterized by unity; undivided: They spoke with one voice.

So, I think you mean number 2 ?

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. (Gal 5:22-23).

In Greek the word for "fruit" is "karpos" and it is in the singular.
See text analysis here http://biblos.com/galatians/5-22.htm

Yes, I see. Karp-os, I'm troubled a bit, though -- so I studied it some more....

It seems the KJV translators see no real distinction, using "fruit" and "fruits" (See Romans 8:23) in spite of the Greek.
Roman 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the first fruits of the Spirit,...

But if there is a first fruit of the Spirit, is there not more?

Or again, the tree is known by its "fruit-S" (Matth 7:16), which every Christian has too...
And yet in Matthew 12:33, it says "it's fruit good" (and not fruits.)
And this is spectacularly true in Matthew 13:8.
Matth 13:8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit [singular], some an hundredfold [plural!], some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

So, it seems to me that the saying is the same whether it be "fruit" or "fruits"; The singular, perhaps means it all comes from one place, or is one kind, ?

I'm wondering -- is there a special reason that we must say "fruit" of the Spirit and then "manifestations", or is this just a preference to avoid collective nouns ?

So there are nine manifestations of the fruit of the Spirit, not nine fruits of the spirit.

Traditionally, these nine character qualities have been divided into three triads.
1) First, there are three qualities that join us to God: love, joy and peace.
2) The second triad of qualities reaches out to those around us: patience, kindness and goodness.
3) The third triad includes three qualities that describe our inner character: faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

May I ask, which tradition you are thinking of? (I'm not anti-tradition about arbitrary things, I just don't know where this is from....)

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Thanks About the Son of God, I've always wondered about the fruit (fruits).
Just as I have wondered about the crown (crowns).
It can be confusing.

 

[Agape]

Yes, I see. Karp-os, I'm troubled a bit, though -- so I studied it some more....

It seems the KJV translators see no real distinction, using "fruit" and "fruits" (See Romans 8:23) in spite of the Greek.
Roman 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the first fruits of the Spirit,...

Actually, they do. See text analysis of Romans 8:23 here http://biblos.com/romans/8-23.htm
firsfruits in greek is aparchēn not karpos

Original Word: ἀπαρχή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: aparché
Short Definition: the first-fruits
Definition: the first-fruits, the earliest crop of the year, hence also met., for example, of the earliest converts in a district; there is evidence in favor of rendering in some passages merely by: sacrifice, gift.

8 occurrences in the NT
Romans 8:23 N-AFS
BIB: αὐτοὶ τὴν ἀπαρχὴν τοῦ πνεύματος
NAS: having the first fruits of the Spirit,
KJV: which have the firstfruits of the Spirit,
INT: ourselves the first-fruit of the Spirit

Romans 11:16 N-NFS
BIB: δὲ ἡ ἀπαρχὴ ἁγία καὶ
NAS: If the first piece [of dough] is holy,
KJV: if the firstfruit [be] holy,
INT: moreover the first-fruit [be] holy also

Romans 16:5 N-NFS
BIB: ὅς ἐστιν ἀπαρχὴ τῆς Ἀσίας
NAS: who is the first convert to Christ
KJV: who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto
INT: who is a first-fruit of Achaia

1 Corinthians 15:20 N-NFS
BIB: ἐκ νεκρῶν ἀπαρχὴ τῶν κεκοιμημένων
NAS: from the dead, the first fruits of those
KJV: [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.
INT: from among [the] dead first-fruit of those fallen asleep

1 Corinthians 15:23 N-NFS
BIB: ἰδίῳ τάγματι ἀπαρχὴ Χριστός ἔπειτα
NAS: Christ the first fruits, after
KJV: Christ the firstfruits; afterward
INT: own order [the] first-fruit Christ then

1 Corinthians 16:15 N-NFS
BIB: ὅτι ἐστὶν ἀπαρχὴ τῆς Ἀχαίας
NAS: of Stephanas, that they were the first fruits of Achaia,
KJV: it is the firstfruits of Achaia,
INT: that it is first-fruit of Achaia

James 1:18 N-AFS
BIB: εἶναι ἡμᾶς ἀπαρχήν τινα τῶν
NAS: that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.
KJV: a kind of firstfruits of his
INT: to be us first-fruits a sort of

Revelation 14:4 N-NFS
BIB: τῶν ἀνθρώπων ἀπαρχὴ τῷ θεῷ
NAS: men as first fruits to God
KJV: among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God
INT: the men [as] firstfruits to God

 

[About the Son of God]

huh...?

I know you just answered my question, at least partially, but I don't get it?

When you say "They" do -- did you mean the KJV translators or biblos.com ?
I was talking about the KJV's English translations "fruitS" in the plural; and whether it's a different word or not in Greek -- the result of translation is still "firstfruitS of the spirit in English", ? As in more than one?

I can easily support your singular argument, by pointing out that ἀπαρχ-ήν happens to be feminine singular; as opposed to
ἀπαρχ-ας or ἀπαρχ-αι which are the plural forms. But that doesn't escape the traditional KJV translation issue, nor avoid the fact that feminine words are routinely used to emphasize collective nouns. ( Singular means a group of equivalent things, not necessarily just one. )

Setting all that aside, though, look at Matthew 13:8
It yielded fruit ( καρπ-όν, singular), some indeed a hundred fold. (clearly plural)

So, that's not a different word....
http://biblos.com/matthew/13-8.htm

I'm just wanting to know more about the traditions surrounding the usage "fruit" of the spirit; and why it is considered only one, and why "manifestations" is preferred to "fruits". I don't clearly see the difference -- that's all.

Peace to you.
--Andrew.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

In Greek (karpos) as well as English ("fruit"), the word is the same whether singular or plural. For the KJV to say "fruits" is an abuse of the English language as well as a bad translation. Even in 1611, "fruit" was its own plural.

 

[About the Son of God]

In Greek (karpos) as well as English ("fruit"), the word is the same whether singular or plural. For the KJV to say "fruits" is an abuse of the English language as well as a bad translation. Even in 1611, "fruit" was its own plural.

I don't mean to be a headache... but I don't think Agape is necessarily that far off;
There is room for traditional thinking, still.

Consider, how would you explain the other passage I mentioned?
http://biblos.com/matthew/7-17.htm

 

[farouk]

Try Philippians 2; the first half of the chapter.

 

[About the Son of God]

Well, perhaps the time is past to learn much about the tradition.... and too bad, there might have been more of use to you.

I did a word study on patience, and to my surprise; the vast majority of direct references to it are in Paul's epistles. It's used perhaps three times in the whole old testamant (eg: KJV), two of which are psalms; and around the same number of times in the Gospels (total).

The use in Luke 21:19 is typical of why it is brought up -- for patience is almost spoken of during a crisis God permits someone to be tested by. eg: It's not spoken of so much in the context of day to day dealings with life.

The only parable I saw it in was about the indebted servent;
Matthew 18:23 - 34

hm....

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

I don't mean to be a headache... but I don't think Agape is necessarily that far off;
There is room for traditional thinking, still.

"Traditional thinking"? What makes you think what I have stated is not "traditional"? The fact is, the word is both singular and its own plural in both Greek and English. Therefore, following the "traditional thinking" of the KJV scholars would make us all as wrong as they were.

 

[About the Son of God]

I just showed you an example where in Greek, the word was spelled explicitly plural. I don't see a comment about that?
( καρπ-οὺς ) is a Noun - Accusative case, Masculine, and plural. "A-MAP"

Agape stated that her division of the word into nine manifestations (Three triads) was a traditional division, and clearly her tradition rests on there being both plural and signular versions of fruit in scripture (which I just demonstrated).

Although spelling variants of some words are found in different copies of the new testament, the NestleAland's compilation of them does not give brackets indicating that any reliable copies of the N.T. Greek correct the spelling of karpous; which is very strange if it is widespread knowledge that the singular spelling of fruit is in fact, the plural in Greek.

I don't rely on Greek dictionaries first when it comes to determining Greek word meaning; I use context of uncontestedly authentic Koine Greek manuscripts to determine the accuracy of translation, preferably large bodies of them; and preferably scripture first; but classic is acceptable for just studying Grammar and word meaning.

In this particular case, I have to suspend disbelief of Agape's comment based on dictionaries because at least one counter example exists. I can't condemn what she says based solely on a convention that inspiration apparently ignored.

Like I said, I don't mean to be a headache -- bang head here -----> X

 

[Agape]

Agape stated that her division of the word into nine manifestations (Three triads) was a traditional division, and clearly her tradition rests on there being both plural and signular versions of fruit in scripture (which I just demonstrated).

You did not demonstrate anything but wrong interpretation methods. Nor did I state that nine manifestations and three triads meant the same thing.

Fruit of the spirit in singular with nine manifestations is correct exegesis, not a tradition.
Many commentators usually (traditionally) divide the fruit into three triads. You don't have to.
http://versebyversecommentary.com/galatians/galatians-522/
http://bible.org/article/fruit-spirit

FYI, debates are not allowed on this forum.

 

[About the Son of God]

You did not demonstrate anything but wrong interpretation methods. Nor did I state that nine manifestations and three triads meant the same thing.

I understand part of your explanation, because you originally said:

Traditionally, these nine character qualities have been divided into three triads.

And that's all I thought I had said that you said... But if I failed -- I don't want to misrepresent you to others, saying that nine manifestations must be three triads. I just want them to understand they are traditionally divided into three triads.

Fruit of the spirit in singular with nine manifestations is correct exegesis, not a tradition.

Active listening on my part:
Exegetically, there are nine things listed out under one grammatical fruit, (in Galatians 5:22) without a tradition involved.

Many commentators usually (traditionally) divide the fruit into three triads. You don't have to.
http://versebyversecommentary.com/galatians/galatians-522/
http://bible.org/article/fruit-spirit

I see, so when you say "tradition" -- what you really mean is just "usual" or familiar ? as in, an uncontested statistic ?

FYI, debates are not allowed on this forum.

Thank you for the friendly reminder.

A debate requires (at least) two people holding two opposing sides of an issue.
I don't believe I am yet in a debate ... although, may I ask -- Do I appear to be in a debate?

My personal attempt is not to condemn anyone, but to show where explanations are necessarily incomplete; and to elicit more information from each person.

Perhaps you might teach me a little bit about how to re-phrase what I am saying so that it is less abrasive, yet still expresses the concern I have for missing explanation(s)? We're in a thread about patience, after all, right?

Thank you for the link to the clarifying sermon/reflection.
I'm now puzzling now over the word "manifestation", but I think I am understanding you a bit better.

Word puzzles are fun to me.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/manifestation

Now... hmm.....
Things which are "internal" *seem* to be at odds with those called "manifested".

 

[Guest]

Ty for responding everyone, one day at a time. Love, urk.