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OK, ONE MORE TIME!
God knows who will accept him and who will not.
He does NOT manipulate the person to choose or not to choose Him, He allows us to deduct and calculate our own information along the way...We choose what we will do but God already knows what we will do.
I believe there are times when he will intervene and reveal Himself to those whom he knows are seeking Him with all their heart.
Yes, he knows who they will be and he can bring about circumstances in order to help them along in coming to the knowledge of Him.
But those whose hearts are hardened toward Him and who refuse to acknnowledge Him, he lets them go on according to their OWN will.
He knows the end results but He lets us make our own choices.
 
In a nutsell the problem is that people claim that God created everything and He knows the future. So God is responsible for everything that happens. To Him, it is a static picture like a painting. The pigments of the painting may feel like they chose their color, but it was really God's decision.

Another way to see it is that God could have chosen not to make Satan or to make a different version of Satan. Basically God made Satan in such a way that He created knowing everything that would result from the creation.

Yet another way is if I shoot a gun, I am the one that made the decision to kill, not the bullet. If God makes something that He knows will do bad, then by the same logic God would be blamed for all the bad stuff that happens.

The only way out is if God does not know the future or if God was limited in creation.

Quath
 
I know that if you drink a pint of poison you will probably die. Is it my fault if you choose to drink it? Simply because I have foreknowledge i should not be blamed for your choices!
 
evanman said:
I know that if you drink a pint of poison you will probably die. Is it my fault if you choose to drink it? Simply because I have foreknowledge i should not be blamed for your choices!
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If you designed me so I would drink the poison then it is your fault.

Quath
 
then that what be your fault not even mans becouse you have not checked it out before you consumed it.

so then where would there be no decernment in you.
 
Basically, if you make me and you know the future, then I have no free will. You can make the version of me that will drink the poison or a version of me that would not. So it is your choice which version of me that you make. After that, it is just like watching dominos fall.

Quath
 
Quath said:
evanman said:
I know that if you drink a pint of poison you will probably die. Is it my fault if you choose to drink it? Simply because I have foreknowledge i should not be blamed for your choices!
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If you designed me so I would drink the poison then it is your fault.

Quath
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Man was not designed/created to sin. Man was originally designed/created to be an image and likeness of God.
 
Heathen

Since when does being all knowing mean that there is no free will? Just becuase God knows all things does not mean that he authored them. Though I personally do not feel that free will exist.

Oh, yes we can make choices but we can not make them out side the nature we are. A sinner will always make a choice that leads to sin, the same as a dog will always bark and never fly.

If a man came up to you and put a gun in your face and said " Give me all your money or I will kill you" Well you can take your chance and fight, or you can give him what he is asking for. Which ever way it goes you are only able to make choices with in the limits of the situation.

The same is true of humans and sin. The human that has not known God can not know God, it is not in his nature, that option is not there for him. His choices are this sin or that sin, but not God. Only when God intervenes can that man find a will to choice God.

So in this I do not agree with destiny, and that is OK. We do not have to agree on this since we both know that we are saved by faith in Jesus alone. The bible does not teach this idea of free will, and that men can choice God of their own.

And that is why both you ahtiest can not seem to get a clue, as I have said you are blind. YOu are simply not able to know God, it is not in your nature. Only when God changes that nature can you see him.
 
evanman said:
Man was not designed/created to sin. Man was originally designed/created to be an image and likeness of God.
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God could have designed us not to sin. In the simpliest terms, He could have made us collapse everytime we were about to sin. A slightly more complex method is He could have given us the feeling of an orgasm every time we obeyed Him.

We can't be too close to the design of God. Does God have canine teeth to tear flesh? Does God have a brain or testosterone? So our likeness to Him should be something else.

Quath
 
evanman said:
God left the choices down to man.
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So there is no divine plan? There is no God's Will? God isn't really omnipotent after all? We can make choices outside of his plan?
 
We can make choices outside of his plan?
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Absolutly! If you choose to reject him you are outside His will for your life and you can't blame God for the choices you made. He doesn't interfere with mans will, He chooses not to. You are in Gods will only if you make Him Lord of your life.
 
So there is no divine plan? Either that or my actions change and undermine his plan meaning he isn't omnipotent after all.
 
He might know what you'll do but he doesn't interfere with your will in making your own choices. Yes those choices undermine His plan for your life, you short change your self when you forfeit His will. You miss His best for you.
You think that God is this big puppet master and we are all on the end of a string, but thats not How God works. He gave man free will...I wish you could grasp that!!
 
God told Adam not to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge--he chose to do what God told him not to!

God tells you not to steal----if you steal that's your decision--not God's!
 
If you're going to say this, at least admit that God is neither all-knowing nor all-powerful. For if he is, he not only knew Adam would eat from the tree, but he designed him to do so.
 
Heathen said:
If you're going to say this, at least admit that God is neither all-knowing nor all-powerful. For if he is, he not only knew Adam would eat from the tree, but he designed him to do so.
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I fail to see your logic in this.

God IS all-knowing, and All-powerful, what has that to do with His intervening in Adam's decision?

Adam was designed to eat, true, but he had the choice as to whether or not he would eat of the fruit of the tree he had been warned against eating.

God warns Adam against eating the fruit of the tree--a bit strange if he wanted Adam to actually eat it--don't you think?
 
God could have made Ken and Barbi instead of Adam and Eve. The difference is that Ken and Barbi got sick every time they got near that tree and therefore they never sinned. But God created Adam over Ken knowing what Adam would do.

God does not value free will either. He takes it away from the Pharoah so He can punish the Egyptians and kill their children.

Quath
 
evanman said:
Heathen said:
If you're going to say this, at least admit that God is neither all-knowing nor all-powerful. For if he is, he not only knew Adam would eat from the tree, but he designed him to do so.
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I fail to see your logic in this.

God IS all-knowing, and All-powerful, what has that to do with His intervening in Adam's decision?

Adam was designed to eat, true, but he had the choice as to whether or not he would eat of the fruit of the tree he had been warned against eating.

God warns Adam against eating the fruit of the tree--a bit strange if he wanted Adam to actually eat it--don't you think?
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As God is telling them not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, one would assume they don't yet have knowledge of what is good and what is evil. So how could they have possibly known that to disobey God was evil when they don't even know what this is?
 
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