Bishops/Elder/Pastors required to be married?

[Hopeful 2]

If you want to believe only you can understand English, then so be it, but I will continue to disagree that these scriptures are saying a man who wants to be an Elder or Deacon must be married with children. You can claim all you want that you have God's Holy Spirit, I'm still going to disagree with you that these scriptures are saying that one of the qualifications for a man to be an Elder or Deacon is that he must be married with children.

Then you can also say there is no need for blamelessness, vigilance, sobriety, good behavior, hospitality, ability to teach, self control, lack of greediness for filthy lucre, or patience.
You get what you pay for.

 

[BB1956]

Then you can also say there is no need for blamelessness, vigilance, sobriety, good behavior, hospitality, ability to teach, self control, lack of greediness for filthy lucre, or patience.
You get what you pay for.

I not saying anything of the kind. If you choose to believe that, then that's your choice, but I'm not saying that just because you believe that I am.

 

[Tenchi]

Should a BISHOP/ ELDER / PASTOR be married?

God's word says it is required to be married, What say you?

1 Timothy 3:1-7
1 It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do.
2 An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
3 not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money.
4 He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity
5 (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?),
6 and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.
7 And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Does this passage forbid an Elder who becomes a widower from continuing as an Elder (Overseer/Bishop/Pastor)? No. But to become an Elder in the first place requires that the man installed in the role be a monogamously married man, preferably with children, demonstrating in his dignified, well-managed/controlled household his fitness to oversee the flock of God.

Titus 1:5-9
5 For this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you,
6 namely, if any man is above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion.
7 For the overseer must be above reproach as God's steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain,
8 but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, just, devout, self-controlled,
9 holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.

The same monogamous married status Paul made necessary to the role of Elder in his letter to Timothy, he repeats here in his letter to Titus. Again, he doesn't forbid a widowed Elder from continuing as an Elder, but does stipulate that marriage is necessary to being made an Elder/Overseer/Bishop/Pastor, his well-behaved children serving as one of the bases upon which he shows his suitability for the role.

 

[BB1956]

1 Timothy 3:1-7
1 It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do.
2 An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
3 not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money.
4 He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity
5 (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?),
6 and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.
7 And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Does this passage forbid an Elder who becomes a widower from continuing as an Elder (Overseer/Bishop/Pastor)? No. But to become an Elder in the first place requires that the man installed in the role be a monogamously married man, preferably with children, demonstrating in his dignified, well-managed/controlled household his fitness to oversee the flock of God.

Titus 1:5-9
5 For this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you,
6 namely, if any man is above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion.
7 For the overseer must be above reproach as God's steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain,
8 but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, just, devout, self-controlled,
9 holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.

The same monogamous married status Paul made necessary to the role of Elder in his letter to Timothy, he repeats here in his letter to Titus. Again, he doesn't forbid a widowed Elder from continuing as an Elder, but does stipulate that marriage is necessary to being made an Elder/Overseer/Bishop/Pastor, his well-behaved children serving as one of the bases upon which he shows his suitability for the role.

These scriptures do not make a commandment that a man who wants to be an Elder or Deacon he must be married with children. It's just that if the man is married, he must be married to one wife and if he be married with children he be able to rule over his own house.

 

[BB1956]

I don't see in 1 Timothy 3:1-7 or in Titus 1:5-9 that a single man can't be an Elder or Deacon. People keep reading into these scriptures that isn't there. Singleness is praised by Paul in the scriptures, because a single man can focus only on sacred things to God, and so do better than a married man, this would include being an Elder or Deacon.(1 Corinthians 7: 37, 38)

 

[Tenchi]

These scriptures do not make a commandment that a man who wants to be an Elder or Deacon he must be married with children. It's just that if the man is married, he must be married to one wife and if he be married with children he be able to rule over his own house.

Read the passages again. They most certainly do require an Elder to be a married man. It's amazing how, in the face of the explicit statement of this requirement, you flatly deny it. I can think of someone else who is the practice of denying or contorting the plain declaration of God's word...

"An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife..." (1 Timothy 3:2)

Grammatically, the term "must" applies to all that follows it in the sentence: Must be above reproach, must be the husband of one wife, must be temperate, must be prudent, must be respectable, and so on. These are not suggestions to be disregarded as it suits, but standards that must be met.

If one wants to make being a monogamously married man a mere suggestion, then it follows that all the other things stipulated in the verse - being above reproach, being prudent, and temperate, and so on - are also mere suggestions. But this would mean a man not temperate, not prudent, not above reproach, not respectable could qualify for the role of Elder. Obviously, this is not what Paul intended by writing what he did to Timothy on the matter of Elders.

"4 He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity
5 (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?),"

Here, Paul reinforced the necessity of an Elder being married, declaring that a prospective Elder shows his fitness for the role by ruling his household well and keeping his children under control. How would a man who is single, having no children as a result, meet this qualification Paul established? A widower with children might meet this standard, but not a man who has never been married and thus has no children.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Should a BISHOP/ ELDER / PASTOR be married?

God's word says it is required to be married, What say you?

God's word also doesn't contradict itself. Paul taught in 1 Cor. 7 that singleness is preferred so you can serve God without distraction, but for those who are married, they've not sinned, and they should remain married. Paul was addressing a status quo at the time when most of the local church were married, and "keep his own house in order" was used as a qualification, because obviously, if you can't keep your own house in order, how can you keep God's house in order? If you can't lead your own family, how can you lead a congregation?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Read the passages again. They most certainly do require an Elder to be a married man. It's amazing how, in the face of the explicit statement of this requirement, you flatly deny it. I can think of someone else who is the practice of denying or contorting the plain declaration of God's word...

"An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife..." (1 Timothy 3:2)

Grammatically, the term "must" applies to all that follows it in the sentence: Must be above reproach, must be the husband of one wife, must be temperate, must be prudent, must be respectable, and so on. These are not suggestions to be disregarded as it suits, but standards that must be met.

If one wants to make being a monogamously married man a mere suggestion, then it follows that all the other things stipulated in the verse - being above reproach, being prudent, and temperate, and so on - are also mere suggestions. But this would mean a man not temperate, not prudent, not above reproach, not respectable could qualify for the role of Elder. Obviously, this is not what Paul intended by writing what he did to Timothy on the matter of Elders.

"4 He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity
5 (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?),"

Here, Paul reinforced the necessity of an Elder being married, declaring that a prospective Elder shows his fitness for the role by ruling his household well and keeping his children under control. How would a man who is single, having no children as a result, meet this qualification Paul established? A widower with children might meet this standard, but not a man who has never been married and thus has no children.

First of all, most protestant churches don't have the position of bishop, some don't even have the position of deacon, only a pastor; second, some church leaders just can't have any children due to infertility or other reasons, are they all unqualified just because of that? What if their children tragically pass away or defect from faith? Third, although I'm not Catholic, neither do I believe their teachings, I think their bishops and deacons have more say on this matter than you do. If their bishops and deacons are unmarried and childless, who are you to call them unqualified?

 

[Hopeful 2]

I don't see in 1 Timothy 3:1-7 or in Titus 1:5-9 that a single man can't be an Elder or Deacon. People keep reading into these scriptures that isn't there. Singleness is praised by Paul in the scriptures, because a single man can focus only on sacred things to God, and so do better than a married man, this would include being an Elder or Deacon.(1 Corinthians 7: 37, 38)

...except that not having kept a household and family in order, hasn't shown he is qualified to keep a church in order.

 

[BB1956]

Read the passages again. They most certainly do require an Elder to be a married man. It's amazing how, in the face of the explicit statement of this requirement, you flatly deny it. I can think of someone else who is the practice of denying or contorting the plain declaration of God's word...

"An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife..." (1 Timothy 3:2)

Grammatically, the term "must" applies to all that follows it in the sentence: Must be above reproach, must be the husband of one wife, must be temperate, must be prudent, must be respectable, and so on. These are not suggestions to be disregarded as it suits, but standards that must be met.

If one wants to make being a monogamously married man a mere suggestion, then it follows that all the other things stipulated in the verse - being above reproach, being prudent, and temperate, and so on - are also mere suggestions. But this would mean a man not temperate, not prudent, not above reproach, not respectable could qualify for the role of Elder. Obviously, this is not what Paul intended by writing what he did to Timothy on the matter of Elders.

"4 He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity
5 (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?),"

Here, Paul reinforced the necessity of an Elder being married, declaring that a prospective Elder shows his fitness for the role by ruling his household well and keeping his children under control. How would a man who is single, having no children as a result, meet this qualification Paul established? A widower with children might meet this standard, but not a man who has never been married and thus has no children.

Elders or Deacons can be single. They don't have to be married. It's only required that if a man who is married who wants to be an Elder or Deacon be a husband of one wife and if he also has children he be able to rule over his own house

 

[BB1956]

...except that not having kept a household and family in order, hasn't shown he is qualified to keep a church in order.

It just means that if a man is married with children and isn't able to rule over his own house he isn't qualified to rule over the congregation. This doesn't mean a man must be married with children to be qualified to be an Elder or Deacon . Single men can be Elders or Deacons. God says through Paul that a single man can focus more on sacred things than a married man, that he would be better at such duties .That would include being better at being an Elder or Deacon because they can focus better on the duties of being an Elder or Deacon

 

[Tenchi]

Elders or Deacons can be single. They don't have to be married. It's only required that if a man who is married who wants to be an Elder or Deacon be a husband of one wife and if he also has children he be able to rule over his own house

Nope. As I explained from the text of Paul's words to Timothy, this is not so. Simply asserting the opposite of what Paul wrote doesn't somehow negate his clear statement.

 

[BB1956]

Nope. As I explained from the text of Paul's words to Timothy, this is not so. Simply asserting the opposite of what Paul wrote doesn't somehow negate his clear statement.

You're reading into the text something that's not there. None of the scriptures command a man he must be married or have children.

 

[Tenchi]

You're reading into the text something that's not there. None of the scriptures command a man he must be married or have children.

It's right there in black and white on the pages of my Bible. I've also quoted the passages themselves in this thread so all can see that the very opposite of what you're saying is actually the case. Denying the obvious doesn't make it go away.

 

[BB1956]

It's right there in black and white on the pages of my Bible. I've also quoted the passages themselves in this thread so all can see that the very opposite of what you're saying is actually the case. Denying the obvious doesn't make it go away.

You want to keep reading into the text something that isn't there, so be it. I'll continue to disagree with those who say these scriptures are saying a man has to be married and have children to be an Elder or Deacon

 

[Hopeful 2]

It just means that if a man is married with children and isn't able to rule over his own house he isn't qualified to rule over the congregation.

That is correct, but you keep on fighting against what you just declared.
Even with your added "just", the meaning doesn't change.
If he hasn't proved he can run a family, how can he be expected to run a church ?

This doesn't mean a man must be married with children to be qualified to be an Elder or Deacon .

Yes, it does mean that exactly.

Single men can be Elders or Deacons.

Not if they have not proved they can run a family.

God says through Paul that a single man can focus more on sacred things than a married man,

But a single man cannot prove he has the ability to run a church.

that he would be better at such duties .

I'll take a proven leader over an unproven one.

That would include being better at being an Elder or Deacon because they can focus better on the duties of being an Elder or Deacon

That would disagree with Paul in both 1 Tim 3, and in Titus 1.

If being married in order to be a pastor/bishop isn't necessary to you, how can any of the other qualities be of importance ?
Can a man be a sinner and still be a bishop ?
How about if he is a money hungry striker, and a drunk ?

If you remove one block from a wall, the whole thing will crumble.

 

[BB1956]

Technically said,
"Grammatically, the term "must" applies to all that follows it in the sentence: Must be above reproach, must be the husband of one wife, must be temperate, must be prudent, must be respectable, and so on. These are not suggestions to be disregarded as it suits, but standards that must be met."[/QUOTE\]

A single Christian man can have these qualities by allowing God's Holy Spirit to lead them to have such qualities. So single Christian men can be above reproach, temperate, prudent, respectable, moderate in habits, sound in mind, orderly, hospitable, qualified to teach, not a drunkard, not violent, but reasonable, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. They can have these qualities by depending on God's Holy Spirit. For you to say or even imply that only Christian men who are married can have these qualities, I'm most definitely going to disagree with. God's Holy Spirit can help a Christian man to have these qualities whether he's married or not. I agree that the Christian man must allow God's Holy Spirit to lead him, but for someone to even suggest that God's Holy Spirit only influences married Christian men to have such qualities which have everything to do with loving God and his people, I'm most definitely not going to agree with that person. You want to believe that only married men can have these qualities, that God's Holy Spirit only influences married Christian men to have these qualities, then you go ahead and believe that God only cares about married Christian men to have these qualities. You're not going to convince me that God only influences Christian married men to have these qualities. The plain simple fact is that every Christian is supposed to allow God's Holy Spirit to lead him/her to have these Christian qualities because having such qualities show your love for God and his people. Now I agree that we as Christians are not all at the same place in our walk in the Christian life so may not have all those qualities at the same time as others but that doesn't mean we don't allow God's Holy Spirit to continue leading us to have those qualities whether we're married or not. You have it your head that only married Christian men can have these qualities and that it has nothing to do with God's Holy Spirit. God with his Holy Spirit can influence a single Christian man how to run his house and for anyone to say it only depends on the man being married and that God's Holy Spirit can't influence a single Christian man how to run his house, that person and I will disagree.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Technically said,
"Grammatically, the term "must" applies to all that follows it in the sentence: Must be above reproach, must be the husband of one wife, must be temperate, must be prudent, must be respectable, and so on. These are not suggestions to be disregarded as it suits, but standards that must be met."[/QUOTE\]

A single Christian man can have these qualities by allowing God's Holy Spirit to lead them to have such qualities. So single Christian men can be above reproach, temperate, prudent, respectable, moderate in habits, sound in mind, orderly, hospitable, qualified to teach, not a drunkard, not violent, but reasonable, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. They can have these qualities by depending on God's Holy Spirit. For you to say or even imply that only Christian men who are married can have these qualities, I'm most definitely going to disagree with. God's Holy Spirit can help a Christian man to have these qualities whether he's married or not. I agree that the Christian man must allow God's Holy Spirit to lead him, but for someone to even suggest that God's Holy Spirit only influences married Christian men to have such qualities which have everything to do with loving God and his people, I'm most definitely not going to agree with that person. You want to believe that only married men can have these qualities, that God's Holy Spirit only influences married Christian men to have these qualities, then you go ahead and believe that God only cares about married Christian men to have these qualities. You're not going to convince me that God only influences Christian married men to have these qualities. The plain simple fact is that every Christian is supposed to allow God's Holy Spirit to lead him/her to have these Christian qualities because having such qualities show your love for God and his people. Now I agree that we as Christians are not all at the same place in our walk in the Christian life so may not have all those qualities at the same time as others but that doesn't mean we don't allow God's Holy Spirit to continue leading us to have those qualities whether we're married or not. You have it your head that only married Christian men can have these qualities and that it has nothing to do with God's Holy Spirit. God with his Holy Spirit can influence a single Christian man how to run his house and for anyone to say it only depends on the man being married and that God's Holy Spirit can't influence a single Christian man how to run his house, that person and I will disagree.

Then you disagree with Paul.

 

[Tenchi]

A single Christian man can have these qualities by allowing God's Holy Spirit to lead them to have such qualities.

Yes, a single Christian man can be respectable, prudent, hospitable and above reproach, etc. But he cannot, being single, be the husband of one wife, nor in such a state can he have his children under control (except he's a widower), demonstrating thereby his capacity to rule well his own household (and thus, by extension, the church).

I've known short fellows who could handle a basketball with incredible skill, dribbling circles around everybody, sinking 3-pointers consistently from the top of the key, passing brilliantly, reading the flow of play with great skill, and so on. But they were short. Too short. When it came to playing among guys nearly twice their height and weight who, though not as adept with the basketball as they were, still had above average ability, these short fellows found their athletic advantages completely nullified. Yes, they were great ball-handlers; yes, they were great 3-point shooters; yes, they could pass skillfully; yes, they were great court readers; but they were too short.

In the same way, it doesn't follow that because a single man is kept from the Elder role because of his singleness, he isn't therefore a spiritually-mature and hospitable person, able to teach well, etc.. Being married with kids teaches a man some very important things about himself and walking with God that a single man just can't learn as a bachelor. Most crucially, a man's family becomes a "mirror" of sorts in which he sees an often very unflattering reflection of himself as they test him constantly in the areas of selflessness, wisdom, spiritual leadership, and consistency (among other things). A bachelor does not have the benefit of the tempering, the refining and revealing influence, of a wife and children. As a result, he lacks experience and self-awareness that are crucial in the role of an Elder. But, again, this isn't to say he is, therefore, not at all prudent, or hospitable, or above reproach, etc.

For you to say or even imply that only Christian men who are married can have these qualities, I'm most definitely going to disagree with.

But I didn't. You are arguing here against a Strawman assumption you've made, not my actual words.

God's Holy Spirit can help a Christian man to have these qualities whether he's married or not.

Of course, the Holy Spirit can mature a man spiritually. But the Holy Spirit simply cannot give the single man the experiences of a married man who has navigated the intimacy and relational complexity of marriage and the many challenges unique to raising children.

I didn't marry 'til I was 39. To that point, I had been involved in many Christian ministries, teaching and leading youth, and preaching, and discipling men. I was no "novice" to the faith, that's for sure, my spiritual maturity recognized and called upon by various churches and individuals. But, man, marriage revealed things about me to which I was totally oblivious, led and matured by the Spirit though I believed I had been. Goodness! The "mirror" my wife was to me revealed a man who had some serious growing yet to do spiritually. Her relational intimacy with me, her proximity to me unique to the marriage relationship, was able to expose areas needing growth that could only have been revealed by such a relationship.

Anyway, only a single guy would assert that he can equal the spiritual growth of a married man. All married men know the silliness of this thinking.

You want to believe that only married men can have these qualities, that God's Holy Spirit only influences married Christian men to have these qualities, then you go ahead and believe that God only cares about married Christian men to have these qualities.

Strawman.

You have it your head that only married Christian men can have these qualities and that it has nothing to do with God's Holy Spirit.

It's amazing how you've talked yourself into believing I have a view that you imposed on me! The Strawman you've constructed is your construct, not mine.

 

[BB1956]

Then you disagree with Paul.

I agree with Paul, you're the one saying Paul was saying a single man can't be an Elder or Deacon, however I recognize that it's you saying that, not Paul. I agree with Paul when he saids that a single man can do better at focusing on sacred things than married men. That would include being an Elder or Deacon. You have the right to disagree with him, but I choose to agree with him.