Buried under all this garble-de-gook

[Pard]

OK, so all these topics about orthodox churches and stuff has been up lately and I will admit I got NO CLUE what all this stuff is about. Filiques and statues and this and that... It seems to me (from these posts that I am reading) that the Orthodox church is stuck under about ten tons of tradition. Why can't it just be Jesus Christ? Why do people get caught up in the nuances of religion? Isn't this all about loving God and loving man and knowing that Jesus Christ died on the cross so you could be in Heaven with God?

I read the Bible and it seems to me that the only thing you have to do to get to Heaven is truly have faith in Jesus and know He came to save you and that all you need to be saved is to accept the gift He is handing out. Also you gotta be honest to God and strive to live a righteous life close to God.

But the Orthodox and the Catholic and the Anglican and some of these Protestant churches just caught up in tradition and nuances.

A good example is this tribulation deal. Post... pre... post... pre... well the Bible doesn't talk about either of them and it also doesn't say you even have to know what is going on at all. I have no opinion on the matter, I just know that some day Jesus is gonna come and pick me up so that I can be in the sky with Him. Why do you have to get into this epic battle between pre- and post-? It breeds hate, I've seen it here. People treating pre-tribbers like they are the scum of the earth, it's ridiculous!

Calvin thing to. I mean you breathe the word Calvin in some circles and you are lucky if they only cut off your hands. The Bible doesn't say "Knowest thou theology to the 'T' our thouest is screwested." It says "Love God" "Love man" "Know Christ" "Repent!"

And then I am reading this council that is gonna reunite the orthodox and the RCC but the issues they have are SOOOOOOO small! Seriously it isn't like trying to reunite Jews with Christ, or LDS with Protestants or w/e, the differences are sometimes literally a few words. Man makes mistakes, no man alive knows exactly what God meant in His book and anyone who says they do is full of it (Unless you are Jesus, in which case I am not counting you!!!).

It's fine to have opinions, I'm not saying we cannot have different views of what the Bible says, but the way people are treated for their various views is ridiculous!

(Sorry if this is the wrong place to post this. I'm a bit too steamed to know)

 

[Pard]

I'll keep denomination names out of it to keep from stirring the pot, but a guy who now goes to my church (AoG) was raised in one of these heavily traditional churches. He said that as a kid it was fine and he just went with it, but when he finally reached an age when he began to question and really search for his religion he said he could not find Jesus in his church. Tradition bogged down the route to Jesus. He said the sanctuary was a perfect example of how he felt spiritually in that church. There were saints and candles and bowls and this and that and clergy in front of the pews and at the WAY WAY back was Jesus. He had to go through so many things to actually reach Christ that he gave up on it because he couldnt stand getting tied down with the traditions.

He looked at other churches and settled on this one he goes to now because Jesus is right there in front of you. There is nothing between you and Christ. My church has virtually no traditions at all. The only thing I can even think of is baptism and communion, but those are not even traditions, actually...

Maybe I am just biased, but I have gone to two churches in my life. One was hardly a church at all and it was full of hierarchy and tradition and I hated it there. I now go to this church and there is no tradition, there is no hierarchy. No silk robes, no funny hats. Nothing keeping me from sharing my witness if I so desire (and I have spoken before). The church is about you and Christ, not you, Christ, Mary, Joseph, Paul, Matthew, James, Bob, Charles, Lius, Henry, and Thelma, a bunch of Saints, a few candles, a half dozen hail marys, and a confessional (sorry if it seems like I am picking on the RCC, I just know it better, so... take it as a compliment!)

 

[jasoncran]

i did a thread on this in the ct@a called unity in the western churches.

please comment there as well.

keep in mind that some seem to like to argue and may not be interested in learning or are so dogmatic that they cant see that can't be wrong(i was here on the pre-trib idea)

 

[francisdesales]

OK, so all these topics about orthodox churches and stuff has been up lately and I will admit I got NO CLUE what all this stuff is about. Filiques and statues and this and that... It seems to me (from these posts that I am reading) that the Orthodox church is stuck under about ten tons of tradition. Why can't it just be Jesus Christ? Why do people get caught up in the nuances of religion? Isn't this all about loving God and loving man and knowing that Jesus Christ died on the cross so you could be in Heaven with God?

I read the Bible and it seems to me that the only thing you have to do to get to Heaven is truly have faith in Jesus and know He came to save you and that all you need to be saved is to accept the gift He is handing out. Also you gotta be honest to God and strive to live a righteous life close to God.

But the Orthodox and the Catholic and the Anglican and some of these Protestant churches just caught up in tradition and nuances.

A good example is this tribulation deal. Post... pre... post... pre... well the Bible doesn't talk about either of them and it also doesn't say you even have to know what is going on at all. I have no opinion on the matter, I just know that some day Jesus is gonna come and pick me up so that I can be in the sky with Him. Why do you have to get into this epic battle between pre- and post-? It breeds hate, I've seen it here. People treating pre-tribbers like they are the scum of the earth, it's ridiculous!

Calvin thing to. I mean you breathe the word Calvin in some circles and you are lucky if they only cut off your hands. The Bible doesn't say "Knowest thou theology to the 'T' our thouest is screwested." It says "Love God" "Love man" "Know Christ" "Repent!"

And then I am reading this council that is gonna reunite the orthodox and the RCC but the issues they have are SOOOOOOO small! Seriously it isn't like trying to reunite Jews with Christ, or LDS with Protestants or w/e, the differences are sometimes literally a few words. Man makes mistakes, no man alive knows exactly what God meant in His book and anyone who says they do is full of it (Unless you are Jesus, in which case I am not counting you!!!).

It's fine to have opinions, I'm not saying we cannot have different views of what the Bible says, but the way people are treated for their various views is ridiculous!

(Sorry if this is the wrong place to post this. I'm a bit too steamed to know)

People who are passionate about Christ tend to take theology more seriously. While it may appear to be "only a few words", those few words can make a tremendous difference in what we believe.

For example, one letter in a Greek word determines whether you think Jesus is God or not. Huge distinction - if we are to worship only God. Those who think Jesus is not the essence of God will accuse the other group of idolatry. Or, some people think that honoring a two dimensional picture is OK while you are not allowed to honor a three dimensional picture.

Ah well, try not to let such things bother you. Would you that people were so nonchalant that they didn't care who you thought Jesus was or what you believed?

Regards

 

[Pard]

People who are passionate about Christ tend to take theology more seriously. While it may appear to be "only a few words", those few words can make a tremendous difference in what we believe.

For example, one letter in a Greek word determines whether you think Jesus is God or not. Huge distinction - if we are to worship only God. Those who think Jesus is not the essence of God will accuse the other group of idolatry. Or, some people think that honoring a two dimensional picture is OK while you are not allowed to honor a three dimensional picture.

Ah well, try not to let such things bother you. Would you that people were so nonchalant that they didn't care who you thought Jesus was or what you believed?

Regards

Everyone has a philosophy and every Christian has a theology, there's not a single darn problem with having one, and in fact you really SHOULD have an opinion about these matters, because if you don't it means you are not living it completely. My problem is the pompous attitudes that some people carry around with their theology and the traditions that often burden people from getting to Christ or from really knowing God.

I went to my uncle's church yesterday (some congregational church I think) and they had all these guys in elaborate capes, you know, and it just felt like there was a line of bureaucrats between me and Christ.

But you are right, we should study the scripture closely (and I do), and we should strive for sound Biblical theology, but somewhere between tradition and "I-am-better-than-thou" rhetoric people fall away and that is a giant problem. Only 10% of those who have a "Come-to-Christ" moment every year actually stay with the church for more than two years, that's terrible!

 

[francisdesales]

My problem is the pompous attitudes that some people carry around with their theology and the traditions that often burden people from getting to Christ or from really knowing God.

Forgive me if I am mistaken, but aren't you displaying the same behavior that you claim to abhor? I know many people who come to know God THROUGH those "dusty and burdensome" traditions you mention. It appears to me that you are saying we must come to Christ as you do... Isn't that pompous? Again, forgive me if I am mistaken...

I went to my uncle's church yesterday (some congregational church I think) and they had all these guys in elaborate capes, you know, and it just felt like there was a line of bureaucrats between me and Christ.

The very fact that people go to such services (besides your curiousity or some notion of togetherness with your uncle) should clue you in to the fact that SOME people do not see things as you do. Thus, the truly ecumenical person should accept people where they are at in their walk with God without getting upset that they don't do things your way. No?

But you are right, we should study the scripture closely (and I do), and we should strive for sound Biblical theology, but somewhere between tradition and "I-am-better-than-thou" rhetoric people fall away and that is a giant problem. Only 10% of those who have a "Come-to-Christ" moment every year actually stay with the church for more than two years, that's terrible!

Yes, I admit it is not an easy process, one I am still learning. A person who studies a lot and believes that He is being led by the Spirit can become adamant about their opinion. This CAN foster a sense of "I am better than thou" rhetoric. It takes time to move away from that attitude and am not completely free of that, I fear.

I cannot say why there is a giant issue with retention in the "come to Christ" moment. Maybe it is the very lack of what you abhor - traditions - which are the community's sense of history, a sense of belonging to something beyond ourselves. Traditions can help to anchor us, make concrete mystical concepts and abstract notions. In the "me and God" idea, it is too easy to develop selfish tendencies and take our relationship with other humans for granted. I think there is a lot of wisdom in being part of a community that worships together with their own peculiarities (that some find odd, I suppose).

Regards

 

[Proverbs3/5]

From what I have observed, there are many churches in America that are so rooted in tradition (much of it non-Biblical), that the message of Christ is clouded. Many of them do not teach about the need for a savior, but only the need to "keep the sacraments". In most liturgical churches, the emphasis is not about preaching the Gospel, it is about the eucharist. That is fine for most of the people that attend that kind of church, but some need more. I personally want to (and do) attend a church where Jesus is preeminent and the Bible is taught from the pulpit. I have the same feeling as you do about "Buried under all this garble-de-gook" when I have gone to some other churches. Jesus Christ preached a simple message when he walked the earth, and we are called to do the same today. That message is that EVERYONE is a sinner, and is in need of a savior. There is only One savior that has been provided-Jesus Christ. It is about a personal relationship with Christ, not about religion.

 

[Alabaster]

From what I have observed, there are many churches in America that are so rooted in tradition (much of it non-Biblical), that the message of Christ is clouded. Many of them do not teach about the need for a savior, but only the need to "keep the sacraments". In most liturgical churches, the emphasis is not about preaching the Gospel, it is about the eucharist. That is fine for most of the people that attend that kind of church, but some need more. I personally want to (and do) attend a church where Jesus is preeminent and the Bible is taught from the pulpit. I have the same feeling as you do about "Buried under all this garble-de-gook" when I have gone to some other churches. Jesus Christ preached a simple message when he walked the earth, and we are called to do the same today. That message is that EVERYONE is a sinner, and is in need of a savior. There is only One savior that has been provided-Jesus Christ. It is about a personal relationship with Christ, not about religion.

Said well!

 

[francisdesales]

From what I have observed, there are many churches in America that are so rooted in tradition (much of it non-Biblical), that the message of Christ is clouded. Many of them do not teach about the need for a savior, but only the need to "keep the sacraments". In most liturgical churches, the emphasis is not about preaching the Gospel, it is about the eucharist.

Proverbs,

There is no need for the false dichotomy, a "sacraments" vs "Jesus". The Liturgy, the sacraments are unique meetings with the Risen Lord through visible elemens, water and oil and bread. If someone believes that the Eucharist IS THE RISEN LORD IN THE FLESH, doesn't it follow that the sacrament does not "get in the way" of anything??? Perhaps as an outsider, you may think that, but liturgical churches understand that the sacraments are another means of contacting the invisible through visible means.

Btw, the Bible is a "sacrament", since the Bible is not the literal Word of God. It is paper and ink. Are you about to toss that book away, as it gets in the way of the "real Jesus" or clouds issues?

That is fine for most of the people that attend that kind of church, but some need more. I personally want to (and do) attend a church where Jesus is preeminent and the Bible is taught from the pulpit. I have the same feeling as you do about "Buried under all this garble-de-gook" when I have gone to some other churches. Jesus Christ preached a simple message when he walked the earth, and we are called to do the same today.

Jesus also went to the synagogue, participated in liturgical festivals (Temple or otherwise), sacrifices, and the entire gamut of being Jewish. I think you may be watering down what has been handed down to Christians, simply because you don't understand or appreciate it. It is not uncommon, as people seek "the wide path"...

That message is that EVERYONE is a sinner, and is in need of a savior. There is only One savior that has been provided-Jesus Christ. It is about a personal relationship with Christ, not about religion.

Yea, we get all of that, and then some...

Regards

 

[Scotth1960]

I'll keep denomination names out of it to keep from stirring the pot, but a guy who now goes to my church (AoG) was raised in one of these heavily traditional churches. He said that as a kid it was fine and he just went with it, but when he finally reached an age when he began to question and really search for his religion he said he could not find Jesus in his church. Tradition bogged down the route to Jesus. He said the sanctuary was a perfect example of how he felt spiritually in that church. There were saints and candles and bowls and this and that and clergy in front of the pews and at the WAY WAY back was Jesus. He had to go through so many things to actually reach Christ that he gave up on it because he couldnt stand getting tied down with the traditions.

He looked at other churches and settled on this one he goes to now because Jesus is right there in front of you. There is nothing between you and Christ. My church has virtually no traditions at all. The only thing I can even think of is baptism and communion, but those are not even traditions, actually...

Maybe I am just biased, but I have gone to two churches in my life. One was hardly a church at all and it was full of hierarchy and tradition and I hated it there. I now go to this church and there is no tradition, there is no hierarchy. No silk robes, no funny hats. Nothing keeping me from sharing my witness if I so desire (and I have spoken before). The church is about you and Christ, not you, Christ, Mary, Joseph, Paul, Matthew, James, Bob, Charles, Lius, Henry, and Thelma, a bunch of Saints, a few candles, a half dozen hail marys, and a confessional (sorry if it seems like I am picking on the RCC, I just know it better, so... take it as a compliment!)

Friends, Every time I go to a traditional Evangelical service, I feel like I am watching a game-show host. I am no longer comfortable in an AOG or ELCA service. The ELCA even has "women pastors" (sic). The focus is all on the sermon, and the sermon is usually too long to keep the attention of the congregation. If the sermon was good, the worship service is judged to have been good. If the sermon was "bad" (if anyone can say that about something as untruthful, then the service is not so "entertaining". When sermons become entertainment, the truth-value goes out the door. The latest "end times sermons" keeps the folks up with the latest "bible prophecy news". The congregation of a typical Protestant service faces the preacher. In the EOC service, the whole congregation, including the bishop, priest, etc. faces God.
I have only been to a few GOC services, actually ROC (Russian Orthodox), and they always make me feel good. I know, worship is not about feeling good, but I get the feeling from the typical born again assembly that it is all about experiencing an emotional high that makes the worshipper feel good about himself. I especially got that feeling in the AOG services I once attended. By the way, when I have been to a couple of RCC services, I get a similar feeling to the one in the ROC (EOC). The focus is on God, not on the priest or the sermon. RCC and ROC both share this theocentric emphasis. The whole Protestant experience is book centered and Bible centered. Well, God is not a book, not even the Bible is God, obviously.

 

[Scotth1960]

Proverbs,

There is no need for the false dichotomy, a "sacraments" vs "Jesus". The Liturgy, the sacraments are unique meetings with the Risen Lord through visible elemens, water and oil and bread. If someone believes that the Eucharist IS THE RISEN LORD IN THE FLESH, doesn't it follow that the sacrament does not "get in the way" of anything??? Perhaps as an outsider, you may think that, but liturgical churches understand that the sacraments are another means of contacting the invisible through visible means.

Btw, the Bible is a "sacrament", since the Bible is not the literal Word of God. It is paper and ink. Are you about to toss that book away, as it gets in the way of the "real Jesus" or clouds issues?



Jesus also went to the synagogue, participated in liturgical festivals (Temple or otherwise), sacrifices, and the entire gamut of being Jewish. I think you may be watering down what has been handed down to Christians, simply because you don't understand or appreciate it. It is not uncommon, as people seek "the wide path"...



Yea, we get all of that, and then some...

Regards

Francisdesales, I agree with you that churches with liturgical sacramentalism have something that "free church" evangelicalism or pentecostalism are missing. The sense of mystery is gone from the born again Protestant revivalism. And I don't get the feeling of "it's just me and Jesus" when I went to an AOG service. It was me and "having to put up and listen to this long, boring sermon". I did not get the feeling that most of the preachers really knew the word of God. I'm not critcizing, it's just that something is missing if all worship is is a sermon. We don't have to participate, then, we just sit back enjoy the show, enjoy the sermon, and if we don't agree with what is being said, it was a bad experience.
And some preachers like Benny Hinn did some theatrical, weird things like "slaying people in the Spirit" (sic). I don't miss those AOG services. There was less of a feeling of emotionalism in an ELCA (Lutheran) service, and I guess Lutheran worship is mostly liturgical or semi-liturgical. There is less of a sense of mystery there among Lutherans than in a ROC or a RCC service.

 

[Scotth1960]

Everyone has a philosophy and every Christian has a theology, there's not a single darn problem with having one, and in fact you really SHOULD have an opinion about these matters, because if you don't it means you are not living it completely. My problem is the pompous attitudes that some people carry around with their theology and the traditions that often burden people from getting to Christ or from really knowing God.

I went to my uncle's church yesterday (some congregational church I think) and they had all these guys in elaborate capes, you know, and it just felt like there was a line of bureaucrats between me and Christ.

But you are right, we should study the scripture closely (and I do), and we should strive for sound Biblical theology, but somewhere between tradition and "I-am-better-than-thou" rhetoric people fall away and that is a giant problem. Only 10% of those who have a "Come-to-Christ" moment every year actually stay with the church for more than two years, that's terrible!

I agree with you. I had a "coming to Christ" and the Holy Spirit experience in an Assembly of God congregation, but I feel away from God and had many sins I committed. Over the years, I have struggled to do the right thing. Christianity isn't only about right teaching. We need basic morals, and where we have fallen into sin, we need the love of Jesus to heal our broken hearts and fragmented lives. That is true whatever happens in the denominational alphabet soup, people are just hopefully searching for Jesus, wherever/however they can find them. All Christian denominations have a portion of truth, but of course sound doctrine is hard to discern at times, that is why there are so many "churches" (sic), not everyone is easily able to understand the whole Bible.

 

[Alabaster]

Friends, Every time I go to a traditional Evangelical service, I feel like I am watching a game-show host. I am no longer comfortable in an AOG or ELCA service. The ELCA even has "women pastors" (sic). The focus is all on the sermon, and the sermon is usually too long to keep the attention of the congregation. If the sermon was good, the worship service is judged to have been good. If the sermon was "bad" (if anyone can say that about something as untruthful, then the service is not so "entertaining". When sermons become entertainment, the truth-value goes out the door. The latest "end times sermons" keeps the folks up with the latest "bible prophecy news". The congregation of a typical Protestant service faces the preacher. In the EOC service, the whole congregation, including the bishop, priest, etc. faces God.
I have only been to a few GOC services, actually ROC (Russian Orthodox), and they always make me feel good. I know, worship is not about feeling good, but I get the feeling from the typical born again assembly that it is all about experiencing an emotional high that makes the worshipper feel good about himself. I especially got that feeling in the AOG services I once attended. By the way, when I have been to a couple of RCC services, I get a similar feeling to the one in the ROC (EOC). The focus is on God, not on the priest or the sermon. RCC and ROC both share this theocentric emphasis. The whole Protestant experience is book centered and Bible centered. Well, God is not a book, not even the Bible is God, obviously.

Judging according to the 'feel good' principle.

A Spirit-filled and Spirit-led church service meets us in all ways, including our God-given emotions. The service is not book centered at all---at least ours isn't, but God's word is our authority. It is focused on the presence of God, and the leading of His people into walking in His ways.

 

[Proverbs3/5]

francisdesales, I am not here to debate with you like others have done on this and other threads. Pard asked a question, and my response was all about similar experiences. Nothing I say (or probably anyone else) is going to sway your opinion, or cause your beliefs to change on these issues. The same goes for me as well.
Every issue brought up or point made, you are quick to respond with what your religion teaches. It is apparent that you are good at apologetics. In a way I admire that......

 

[francisdesales]

francisdesales, I am not here to debate with you like others have done on this and other threads. Pard asked a question, and my response was all about similar experiences. Nothing I say (or probably anyone else) is going to sway your opinion, or cause your beliefs to change on these issues. The same goes for me as well.
Every issue brought up or point made, you are quick to respond with what your religion teaches. It is apparent that you are good at apologetics. In a way I admire that......

I can understand and appreciate that. I am relatively certain that other people read these threads, though - so even if we may be at an impasse, others may find my/your words of value. I am not a troll, so I don't intend on chasing you around. I have learned long ago what you stated in your first paragraph. I do think that it is fair that I provide at least one rebuttal to your opinion - and let others judge where they fall.

If you judge that I was offensive, please let me know.

Regards

 

[jasoncran]

Proverbs,

There is no need for the false dichotomy, a "sacraments" vs "Jesus". The Liturgy, the sacraments are unique meetings with the Risen Lord through visible elemens, water and oil and bread. If someone believes that the Eucharist IS THE RISEN LORD IN THE FLESH, doesn't it follow that the sacrament does not "get in the way" of anything??? Perhaps as an outsider, you may think that, but liturgical churches understand that the sacraments are another means of contacting the invisible through visible means.

Btw, the Bible is a "sacrament", since the Bible is not the literal Word of God. It is paper and ink. Are you about to toss that book away, as it gets in the way of the "real Jesus" or clouds issues?



Jesus also went to the synagogue, participated in liturgical festivals (Temple or otherwise), sacrifices, and the entire gamut of being Jewish. I think you may be watering down what has been handed down to Christians, simply because you don't understand or appreciate it. It is not uncommon, as people seek "the wide path"...



Yea, we get all of that, and then some...

Regards

thou almost temptest thine christian to atendenest the localest parish masseth. and commeneth !

 

[Proverbs3/5]

If you judge that I was offensive, please let me know.

Regards

After reading the 8 page long thread (now closed) titled "Is Peter the foundation of the church?", I found it quite informing (though I disagree with the RCC view). I have not found any of your posts offensive (though others might). I know many users read the threads, and not just the users that are posting on said threads. We can all learn from what we read on this forum, as I feel that is why it is here. I am just trying to grow in the grace and knowledge of OUR Lord and savior Jesus Christ....Rich

 

[francisdesales]

thou almost temptest thine christian to atendenest the localest parish masseth. and commeneth !

LOL!

If people only knew!

Regards

 

[jasoncran]

LOL!

If people only knew!

Regards

people, i am free in christ, i have attended a mass a time or two, as recent as 2001. and i also delivers papers to that parish in mind and my own church go there as well . i am charismatic.

hmm i may attend the saturday mass and see the changes i hear as that parish is more open to protestants then before.

joe pm me if you are interested in the name of that parish

 

[Proverbs3/5]

I can understand and appreciate that. I am relatively certain that other people read these threads, though - so even if we may be at an impasse, others may find my/your words of value. I am not a troll, so I don't intend on chasing you around. I have learned long ago what you stated in your first paragraph. I do think that it is fair that I provide at least one rebuttal to your opinion - and let others judge where they fall.

If you judge that I was offensive, please let me know.

Regards

Well, after going back and reading post #9, I feel your response was a little on the rough side. It is o k, I forgive you. I think the problem with this (and maybe all) debate/s on this forum is a matter of defining terms/words. Some users use different definitions for certain words without defining them before hand (yes I am guilty of this as well). Both sides have a different view on a subject because they each are seeing it from a different perspective. When a topic is discussed, both sides need to agree on the terms and word definitions within the posts. That way, everyone is "on the same page" as they say......Rich