By God’s law it’s impossible … it’s only possible by God’s grace!

[John Zain]

God’s grace is His unmerited favor towards man … and without it man cannot please God!

God’s grace includes all of the following …
(1) the possibility that even some people can be saved, (2) His ingenious plan of salvation,
(3) His sending God the Son to earth, (4) His giving free gift of grace-faith to some people,
(5) His giving God the Holy Spirit to these people, and (6) the sanctifying work of His Spirit.

However, God’s gift of grace was NOT given to man just for him to say, “Gee thanks, Lord.”
Details to follow …

The entire Bible is all about man’s free will.
How willing is man to obey God’s will and God’s commands?
And how willing is he to co-operate with God in fulfilling His objectives on earth?

God created all of His angels and humans with free will.
We know how His #1 arch-angel and 1/3 of His angels handled their free will, don’t we!
God didn’t want to be worshipped by robots in heaven, or by robots on earth.
And He didn’t want to live with robots in heaven!

In the old covenant, God proved that man was totally incapable of satisfying Him …
because almost every last one of His “chosen people” were hopelessly sinful and rebellious!
God was always having a fit about all of the sinning and disobedience of His people.

The Holy God certainly did NOT wish to share heaven with sinful man for all of eternity,
so He decided to devise a plan to clean man up so he could actually be acceptable to Him.

God dispersed His original chosen people throughout the world (Deut 28:64, Ezek 12:15),
and promised to institute a new and better covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34, Ezekiel 36:24-28).

1 … God created His “God-man” Jesus Christ, His special Messiah-Redeemer-Savior.
This anointed One personally delivered the necessary spiritual truths to the world,
and also accomplished many other critically important things.

2 … God gave His free gift of grace-faith to some people.
Certain people were chosen (for whatever reason) to be given saving faith,
which enabled them to believe in Jesus and His “foolish” gospel.
However, God’s grace is only an opportunity to gain heaven … it is not a free ride!

3 … God sent His Holy Spirit (the Comforter-Helper) to be placed inside of these people.
This “Spirit of grace” would provide invaluable help to them in a multitude of ways.
They could choose to co-operate with God in being cleaned up and made acceptable to Him!
If we co-operate with Him, the precious Holy Spirit is God’s sin eradication specialist.

This trinity of good stuff above is mixed in with some incredibly bad stuff,
which really gets in the way: man’s sin nature, and man’s mortal enemy Satan.
These are 2 major obstacles, which man needs to overcome to be spiritually successful.

It is all about sin and getting rid of it …
God’s church must be made holy and spotless. Will you end up being part of it?

This is the major reason for all of the warnings and threats in Scripture!
NOT all Christians will be willing to co-operate with God to get rid of their sins.

The Bible describes Satan as the god and ruler of this world,
who is a total and complete liar and the one who deceives the whole world.
Yes, we’re dealing with the greatest liar and deceiver in the history of the world.
And he has been successful in deceiving the churches in some areas.

So, let’s not be too sure that all of our pet doctrines are iron-clad truth.
The best source of spiritual truth is when the Holy Spirit confirms Scripture.

 

[Danus]

There is a lot of ambiguity in your doctrine here. Things like, "Clean man up to be acceptable" and "Getting rid of ones sins", and the willingness of man to co-operate so that God can do His thing here on earth.

Very odd stuff, because it's never clear what you mean. So what I read you saying, your doctrine, is that man must first use his own will, (which God says is sin by nature), to be righteous with God (CO-OPERATE).

This concept alone does not make biblical sense, since man can not do what you've just suggested he must do. Romans 3:23

23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

The short of it is, NO one is without sin. No one but Jesus Christ, has completed their walk on this earth without sin. No one. So no one is, or can be acceptable to God as righteous, by anything they do. Therefore, their own Free-Will, is worthless. It is what is the problem to begin with. Just as Adam and Eve, used their own free will to disobey, it is thought by some, that we can simply use the same free-will to obey when in fact we don't, because we can't. Rather, it is God and God alone who calls us to repentance, who calls us to Him, and to obedience.

Your doctrine, of free-will, and being Good, and making all the right moves and decisions, gives credit not to God, but to man. Why do you do that? Why do you credit yourself for your own salvation?

 

[Guest]

Why do you do that? Why do you credit yourself for your own salvation?

Good question. We were already cleaned up and forgiven of our sins at the cross; not because of me or what I did, but because of what he did on the cross.

 

[Guest]

@Danus I do have a question for you however. How does free will work AFTER you're saved.

 

[Danus]

@Danus I do have a question for you however. How does free will work AFTER you're saved.

When a person is saved, they surrender their desire for sin, but desires also change, and (dare I use the word) "evolve", once saved. We begin to see our sin more in line from Gods perspective as we fellowship with Him. Our behavior changes because our desire changes. Our desire changes in line with God by our surrendering to Him, not by us changing our old-selves, but by Him leading us in our desire.

This is why we are not completely sinless. However, we are "counted" sinless by our faith in Christ. His righteousness is "credited" to the believer. The believer is not required to be sinless, because the believer can't possibly be. That is the point of Christ, who is God, crediting His righteousness to us. That is Love for us.

What's being touted in the OP, is that salvation is a choice that we make. That's just not true, because it's not a choice we can make. We don't have the ability to make that choice, and so, it is a choice God makes, and has. So the credit for any choice to be saved goes to God and not us.

What's being touted in the OP, is that righteousness is something we do by co-operation with God, so that God is righteous and if we are good and walk the line with Him, we will be righteous too. That's also just not true, because we do not have the ability to be righteous because we are sinners. Rather God credits, or "imputes" us His righteousness to us, so that we might be with him. This is done by His sacrifice, not ours.

The choices a saved person makes are either his own choices, or those of God, and either one is based on either that persons desire, or Gods desire. But, faith in God is desiring His choice for our lives, over our choice for our lives. Either way, we do it freely.

We really need to stop talking about our free will as if it's something good, or something that leads us to God. It does not. Thankfully God's free will, is able to break through ours, and give in us a desire for Him. We should be surrendering our free will, yielding our free will....to God. When we do that, we begin to see his desire for us, and that is so much more than our desire for Him that our desire for him grows even stronger, and we are able to surrender more and more to Him.

 

[Danus]

[MENTION=93656]urk[/MENTION], but what about the warnings in the Bible?

Sure there are warnings in the Bible. There are many warnings, about hell, and being lost, not finding the way to salvation. But the OP suggest these warnings are to us and the choices we make to be saved, but actually these warnings are directed at our freedom in sin, not at our freedom in Christ!

The OP says this.........

man’s sin nature, and man’s mortal enemy Satan. These are 2 major obstacles, which man needs to overcome to be spiritually successful.

This is not true. We do not have to overcome, and we can not use our freewill to overcome Satan, or our sin. We don't have the ability to overcome either of these things. The good news is we don't have to, because God already has. John 16:33, 33 “I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.”
Is Jesus saying we must overcome Satan and sin? NO. He is saying He has overcome Satan and sin.

Faith in ourselves tells us that we must do this or that to accomplish "X". Faith in God is knowing God has already accomplished "X" and that we need to surrender our desire to do something to accomplish what He has already done, and what we can never do.

 

[Danus]

God created His “God-man” Jesus Christ

God 'created" Jesus? or Jesus is God? The bible does not describe Jesus has being created, but it does describe Jesus as God. Not something created by God in a moment in time, but God himself who was not created, but always was, and is.

What does Jesus say of Himself? Revelation 22:13 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Again in Revelations 1:8, 8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

 

[Deborah13]

We really need to stop talking about our free will as if it's something good, or something that leads us to God. It does not. Thankfully God's free will, is able to break through ours, and give in us a desire for Him. We should be surrendering our free will, yielding our free will....to God. When we do that, we begin to see his desire for us, and that is so much more than our desire for Him that our desire for him grows even stronger, and we are able to surrender more and more to Him.

This is a really good post, I my opinion. Thank you.
We are not discussing who God wants to save, who He draws so I won't go there.

One's free will can keep them from God. Whether they use their free will to do evil or good. It's easy to see that evil choices keep one from hearing God's call, it's totally self-serving and well evil. But it truly isn't any different when one uses their free will to do good things. It still can keep them from hearing God's call, it's totally self-serving and self-centered. Doing good makes one feel good about Themselves and gain favor with man. This is because it's saying, this is what I do and it's good, even Jesus says feed the poor. But it is in vain, they are without God. They give no credit to God for their abundance that gives them the ability to be givers.
We can look around us and see unbelievers DOING good things and we can look at the body of Christ and see people DOING good things. But in both cases the DOING is not of consequence, when it comes to salvation (eternal life).
So what is the difference between an unbelievers good or evil Doings and the Church's Doings, good or evil? The Cross.
Therefore, anything that one does, without acknowledging Christ's work on the cross and His workings in the heart of man, is evil.

Paul preached radical grace and radical evil in the flesh. His was always reaching out to a mixed audience. The pagan Gentiles needed to know that there was one God and that God was full of mercy and grace towards them. They could trust Him with their lives. We see this in Acts where Paul mentions their "Unknown God".
To the Jews who thought that the Law of Moses could save them (works) he pointed to all works done without the Messiah, were evil because they came from their own flesh.

Just my opinion at the present, not teaching here.

 

[John Zain]

We do not have to overcome ...

Rom 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but (YOU) overcome evil with good.

Rev 2:7 To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life,
which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.”’

Rev 2:11 He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.”

Rev 2:17 To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat.
And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written
which no one knows except him who receives it.”’

Rev 2:26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end,
to him I will give power over the nations—

Rev 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments,
and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life,
but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Rev 3:12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God,
and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and
the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down
out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.

Rev 3:21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne,
as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
This “overcoming” has nothing to do with overcoming the world that John talks about.
3:21 disqualifies what many (who quote 1 John 5:5 below ) think “overcoming” means!
Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
I.E. Jesus did not overcome by believing that He is the Son of God.

Rev 21:7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things,
and I will be his God and he shall be My son.

 

[Danus]

We do not have to overcome ...

Rom 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but (YOU) overcome evil with good.

Rev 2:7 To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life,
which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.”’

Rev 2:11 He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.”

Rev 2:17 To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat.
And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written
which no one knows except him who receives it.”’

Rev 2:26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end,
to him I will give power over the nations—

Rev 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments,
and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life,
but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Rev 3:12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God,
and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and
the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down
out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.

Rev 3:21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne,
as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
This “overcoming” has nothing to do with overcoming the world that John talks about.
3:21 disqualifies what many (who quote 1 John 5:5 below ) think “overcoming” means!
Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
I.E. Jesus did not overcome by believing that He is the Son of God.

Rev 21:7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things,
and I will be his God and he shall be My son.

John,
Nice misuse of my quote and scripture. Same ambiguity and misunderstanding of what it is to over come through Christ. Your understanding is that it is the person that must overcome, without understanding that Christ has overcome and we overcome through Christ, not by something we do, but by what He has done.

This is another broken record. If you want to preach to people that they must do something, take some action, or effort to do what Christ has already done, go right ahead. Your not correcting anything with the use of those scriptures, but pointing out your own misunderstanding of them, which is this; In all those scriptures, the ones who over come do so IN CHRIST JESUS, not of themselves. That's where we have the stumbling block.

You're suggesting that God task each individual to overcome. Overcome what? The world, sin, and I guess their own sin nature. You're reading those verses as telling you that YOU must do these things, but what you're not understanding is that you can't; only God can, and that He already has, and that your only ability to overcome these things is through Jesus Christ in faith, not your effort to do anything. You're still trying to do what God has already done, and in so doing placing your faith that belongs to God in your self to do the impossible. Worse part is, you're trying to teach it as biblical when it clearly is not.

God is the one who says trust in Him; that He does these things so that we might overcome evil. Satan is the one who says trust in yourself, and perverts scripture to suggest that God is calling the individual to first overcome evil and do something to win His favor. Satan does this because even He knows we can't because we are sinners, but if he can get people to misplace their own faith in God then he can get them to feel the failure of their ability to live up to Gods righteousness and forget about Gods grace. Satan love to point out our faults and tell us how unworthy we are, where as God loves to tell us He loves us despite our unworthiness.

You seem to be still leaving Christ out, or placing Christ in the back seat when it comes to salvation.

 

[John Zain]

This is another broken record.

Yes, the broken record is ...
The BAC must co-operate with the Holy Spirit in everything!
Gee, even in overcoming! ... Imagine that!

 

[Danus]

This is another broken record.

Yes, the broken record is ...
The BAC must co-operate with the Holy Spirit in everything!
Gee, even in overcoming! ... Imagine that!

This is why your only assurance of salvation rest mostly with yourself will, because for you to be saved, based on things you've said, you have to do your part, by your own will and ability to do it. Otherwise, in your description of your doctrine, God will reject you. This is exactly what evil wants you to think. Otherwise your trust would be completely in Christ and Christ alone. However, when you hear people like me say this, you think we are saying live as you want and trust in Christ. What I don't think you see is that our trust in Christ means surrendering our own will to His perfect will. It's not MY will be done, it's Gods will be done. I'm done with my freewill sir. It's worthless. It still exist, but in submission to Gods will, which leads me in my life. He has overcome, not me. So, the only way I overcome is through Him.

God’s grace is His unmerited favor towards man … and without it man cannot please God!

How can you call Gods grace "unmerited" then demand a merit for it? You say Gods grace is unmerited, which is true, then you turn around and say we must earn it by doing things like overcoming sin. Do you not see the hypocrisy in that?

 

[John Zain]

BACs must co-operate with the Holy Spirit in everything!
BACs must have their sins purged from their lives!
BACs must live a life of holiness, without which they will not see the Lord!

Multitudes of prophecies have come forth over the past 30 years or so
concerning God's destroying of America because of her enormous sins.

But, so far, God's grace and patience have prevailed.

However, things are now being quickly put into place, and the time is short.
The Lord continues to call everyone to repent and to be sanctified unto holiness!

 

[Danus]

BACs must co-operate with the Holy Spirit in everything!
BACs must have their sins purged from their lives!
BACs must live a life of holiness, without which they will not see the Lord!

Multitudes of prophecies have come forth over the past 30 years or so
concerning God's destroying of America because of her enormous sins.

But, so far, God's grace and patience have prevailed.

However, things are now being quickly put into place, and the time is short.
The Lord continues to call everyone to repent and to be sanctified unto holiness!

Are you born again John? Are you a born again believer as the bible describes one must be?

 

[farouk]

Ephesians 2.8-9 sums it up.

 

[Deborah13]

This is another broken record.

Yes, the broken record is ...
The BAC must co-operate with the Holy Spirit in everything!
Gee, even in overcoming! ... Imagine that!

This is why your only assurance of salvation rest mostly with yourself will, because for you to be saved, based on things you've said, you have to do your part, by your own will and ability to do it. Otherwise, in your description of your doctrine, God will reject you. This is exactly what evil wants you to think. Otherwise your trust would be completely in Christ and Christ alone. However, when you hear people like me say this, you think we are saying live as you want and trust in Christ. What I don't think you see is that our trust in Christ means surrendering our own will to His perfect will. It's not MY will be done, it's Gods will be done. I'm done with my freewill sir. It's worthless. It still exist, but in submission to Gods will, which leads me in my life. He has overcome, not me. So, the only way I overcome is through Him.

God’s grace is His unmerited favor towards man … and without it man cannot please God!

How can you call Gods grace "unmerited" then demand a merit for it? You say Gods grace is unmerited, which is true, then you turn around and say we must earn it by doing things like overcoming sin. Do you not see the hypocrisy in that?

I agree, and not only that. We are not justified by our faith in Christ. We believe in Him and are justified by His faith. His perfect faith.

Gal_2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Php_3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

 

[farouk]

This is why your only assurance of salvation rest mostly with yourself will, because for you to be saved, based on things you've said, you have to do your part, by your own will and ability to do it. Otherwise, in your description of your doctrine, God will reject you. This is exactly what evil wants you to think. Otherwise your trust would be completely in Christ and Christ alone. However, when you hear people like me say this, you think we are saying live as you want and trust in Christ. What I don't think you see is that our trust in Christ means surrendering our own will to His perfect will. It's not MY will be done, it's Gods will be done. I'm done with my freewill sir. It's worthless. It still exist, but in submission to Gods will, which leads me in my life. He has overcome, not me. So, the only way I overcome is through Him.

God’s grace is His unmerited favor towards man … and without it man cannot please God!

How can you call Gods grace "unmerited" then demand a merit for it? You say Gods grace is unmerited, which is true, then you turn around and say we must earn it by doing things like overcoming sin. Do you not see the hypocrisy in that?

I agree, and not only that. We are not justified by our faith in Christ. We believe in Him and are justified by His faith. His perfect faith.

Gal_2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Php_3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Hi @Deborah13 :

I think you'll find that in those passages which you've cited, the grammatical term to describe what has been translated as 'the faith of Christ' is the objective genitive, that is, denoting faith in Him.

Blessings.

 

[John Zain]

I agree, and not only that. We are not justified by our faith in Christ. We believe in Him and are justified by His faith. His perfect faith.
Gal_2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Php_3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

I have known for years that the great and venerable and anointed KJV is far from perfect.
Just think of all of the great missionaries and evangelists, etc. who used it all over the world.

However, we found this to be true (compared to the NKJV) in examples such as:
-- a verse in Isaiah 40 or 48, I believe it was (totally different meaning).
-- Matthew 24:25 means "beforehand", not "before" (totally different meaning).
Just off the top of my head.

All modern translations have "faith in Christ".
IMO, the idea of "faith of Christ" is simply ludicrous!
He didn't need to have faith ... He KNEW He was God. Case closed.

However, Jesus came to demonstrate how we were to live.
And one of the many things He taught us ... was for us to have faith IN the Triune Godhead.
Perhaps he did say something like, "Have faith like I have faith."
Sure, He had faith, but it was totally obvious more than it was necessary.

 

[Deborah13]

I have known for years that the great and venerable and anointed KJV is far from perfect.
Just think of all of the great missionaries and evangelists, etc. who used it all over the world.

I agree, there are times when the KJV is not perfect. But the YLT also says "of Christ". Care to investigate the Koine to determine the translation? Have you done this? The determination of an objective or subjective genitive very often can only be determined by exegesis,(per Moulton)
So in this case, does Jesus receive our faith?
"the love of Christ" is that objective genitive or subjective genitive?

 

[farouk]

I have known for years that the great and venerable and anointed KJV is far from perfect.
Just think of all of the great missionaries and evangelists, etc. who used it all over the world.

I agree, there are times when the KJV is not perfect. But the YLT also says "of Christ". Care to investigate the Koine to determine the translation? Have you done this? The determination of an objective or subjective genitive very often can only be determined by exegesis,(per Moulton)
So in this case, does Jesus receive our faith?
"the love of Christ" is that objective genitive or subjective genitive?

@Deborah13 :

Young's is very formal, and it goes for form over interpretation, so often, so I would expect it to do what it does, really.

Just to mention that objective refers to the grammatical object, rather than to the objective/subjective paradigm. (I've just been around seminary folk who have explained it this way.)

Blessings.

PS: Though subjective genitive does exist as a term, I see. (If you google: "faith of Christ objective genitive", a number of articles will come up.) Blessings.