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Calvinism: A Denial of Man's Free Will

R

Robert Pate

Member
Adam and Eve did not lose their free will in the fall. Where does it say that? What they lost was their relationship with God.

Cane by his own free will slew Abel. All through the Old Testament and into the New Testament we see people exerting their free will. King David by his own free will committed adultery with Basheba. Maybe you believe that God predestinated King David to committed adultery with Bathsheba? If that is what you believe please don't read any further, you are beyond help.

Saving that man does not have a free will is an insult to common sense and is an insult to God who is the creator of man. Calvinists want us to believe that humanity is nothing but a bunch of dumb robots that cannot think for themselves because they have been predestinated to be blind and stupid.

The word "Predestinate" appears only four times in the New Testament. None of the four words have anything to do with anyone being predestinated to heaven or to hell. The words "heaven" and "hell" are not associated with the word "predestinated." If predestination was a true doctrine about people being predestinated to heaven or to hell the Bible would be full of it, there is nothing. The words "Faith" and "Believe" appear in the Bible hundreds of times.

Who are Calvinist? Calvinist are people like Catholics, JW"s, etc. that have rejected the historical Gospel of Jesus Christ and have formed their own religion and doctrines. Of all of the false religions Calvinism is the easiest to refute because it is so far from the truth. Calvinism can be refuted with just one scripture, John 3:16.
 
Robert Pate said:
Adam and Eve did not lose their free will in the fall. Where does it say that? What they lost was their relationship with God.

Cane by his own free will slew Abel. All through the Old Testament and into the New Testament we see people exerting their free will. King David by his own free will committed adultery with Basheba. Maybe you believe that God predestinated King David to committed adultery with Bathsheba? If that is what you believe please don't read any further, you are beyond help.

Saving that man does not have a free will is an insult to common sense and is an insult to God who is the creator of man. Calvinists want us to believe that humanity is nothing but a bunch of dumb robots that cannot think for themselves because they have been predestinated to be blind and stupid.

The word "Predestinate" appears only four times in the New Testament. None of the four words have anything to do with anyone being predestinated to heaven or to hell. The words "heaven" and "hell" are not associated with the word "predestinated." If predestination was a true doctrine about people being predestinated to heaven or to hell the Bible would be full of it, there is nothing. The words "Faith" and "Believe" appear in the Bible hundreds of times.

Who are Calvinist? Calvinist are people like Catholics, JW"s, etc. that have rejected the historical Gospel of Jesus Christ and have formed their own religion and doctrines. Of all of the false religions Calvinism is the easiest to refute because it is so far from the truth. Calvinism can be refuted with just one scripture, John 3:16.
Click to expand...
You have not have one verse that teaches the existence of freewill. That is a carnal philosophical idea.
You do not understand the law as we have seen
Now you show you do not understand grace. we kind of knew it from your first post...:nono:nono
 
Iconoclast said:
You have not have one verse that teaches the existence of freewill. That is a carnal philosophical idea.
You do not understand the law as we have seen
Now you show you do not understand grace. we kind of knew it from your first post...:nono:nono
Click to expand...
Try this one. "But to him that does no works, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" Romans 4:5.

The law was given to Israel as a restraint until Jesus arrived and then it was abolished, Ephesians 2:15.

You are trying to feed a dead horse.
 
Robert Pate said:
Try this one. "But to him that does no works, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" Romans 4:5.

The law was given to Israel as a restraint until Jesus arrived and then it was abolished, Ephesians 2:15.

You are trying to feed a dead horse.
Click to expand...
The law is not abolished...Christians are not antinomian. You do not get it.
The law was never meant to be for man to justify himself.
We are saved by law keeping.
Not our law keeping which is not perfect.
We are saved by the law keeping of another, THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.
Now we fulfill the Law which is in our heart, if we are believers Romans13:8-10

8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
 
Robert Pate said:
Adam and Eve did not lose their free will in the fall. Where does it say that? What they lost was their relationship with God.

Cane by his own free will slew Abel. All through the Old Testament and into the New Testament we see people exerting their free will. King David by his own free will committed adultery with Basheba. Maybe you believe that God predestinated King David to committed adultery with Bathsheba? If that is what you believe please don't read any further, you are beyond help.

Saving that man does not have a free will is an insult to common sense and is an insult to God who is the creator of man. Calvinists want us to believe that humanity is nothing but a bunch of dumb robots that cannot think for themselves because they have been predestinated to be blind and stupid.

The word "Predestinate" appears only four times in the New Testament. None of the four words have anything to do with anyone being predestinated to heaven or to hell. The words "heaven" and "hell" are not associated with the word "predestinated." If predestination was a true doctrine about people being predestinated to heaven or to hell the Bible would be full of it, there is nothing. The words "Faith" and "Believe" appear in the Bible hundreds of times.

Who are Calvinist? Calvinist are people like Catholics, JW"s, etc. that have rejected the historical Gospel of Jesus Christ and have formed their own religion and doctrines. Of all of the false religions Calvinism is the easiest to refute because it is so far from the truth. Calvinism can be refuted with just one scripture, John 3:16.
Click to expand...
You cannot find free will in the bible, so your question is null and void.
Because words like choose are in the bible, has nothing to do with the condition of mans self will'
You insert Cain's "free will" as if it existed? Does the text declare that? NO.
There is no insult if you understand.
The stupid robot argument is lame.

[
The word "Predestinate" appears only four times in the New Testament. None of the four words have anything to do with anyone being predestinated to heaven or to hell.
Click to expand...
]
Satan is the accuser of the brethren. Your ungodly suggestion that Calvinists have "another gospel" is wicked and you need to repent and believe the truth.

Guess what, get a clue....The unsaved are not predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son, so in the Golden chain of redemption if the the foreknown ELECT who are predestined to be conformed to the image.
Whom He did foreknow are individuals ...the elect.
 
Iconoclast said:
You cannot find free will in the bible, so your question is null and void.
Because words like choose are in the bible, has nothing to do with the condition of mans self will'
You insert Cain's "free will" as if it existed? Does the text declare that? NO.
There is no insult if you understand.
The stupid robot argument is lame.

[

]
Satan is the accuser of the brethren. Your ungodly suggestion that Calvinists have "another gospel" is wicked and you need to repent and believe the truth.

Guess what, get a clue....The unsaved are not predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son, so in the Golden chain of redemption if the the foreknown ELECT who are predestined to be conformed to the image.
Whom He did foreknow are individuals ...the elect.
Click to expand...
There is only one Gospel. Paul only taught one Gospel. It is the Gospel that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19.

Since you don't believe that God has reconciled the world unto himself, you don't believe this Gospel, instead you believe ANOTHER Gospel that came out of the twisted, perverted mind of John Calvin.
 
Robert Pate said:
There is only one Gospel. Paul only taught one Gospel. It is the Gospel that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19.

Since you don't believe that God has reconciled the world unto himself, you don't believe this Gospel, instead you believe ANOTHER Gospel that came out of the twisted, perverted mind of John Calvin.
Click to expand...
All the world is not going to be saved. God never intended to save everyone.The extent of the atonement, and the design of the accomplished redemption are two different things.
Calvin forgot more bible than you will ever know.
Calvin did not write the teaching, he just read what they wrote.
Your insistence to speak of Calvin, which you and most Christians have not really read, is to avoid scripture.

PETER WROTE THIS;
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

For sure Peter is speaking of the DOCTRINES OF GRACE, AMONG OTHER THINGS.

You are the one described here as "the unlearned and unstable" wresting scripture.
Take the warning given by Peter...stop suggesting Calvinists bring "another gospel, which is exactly what you deny day after day, from one board to another, and your careless antinomianism shows it...they go hand in hand.


17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
 
Iconoclast said:
All the world is not going to be saved. God never intended to save everyone.The extent of the atonement, and the design of the accomplished redemption are two different things.
Calvin forgot more bible than you will ever know.
Calvin did not write the teaching, he just read what they wrote.
Your insistence to speak of Calvin, which you and most Christians have not really read, is to avoid scripture.

PETER WROTE THIS;
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

For sure Peter is speaking of the DOCTRINES OF GRACE, AMONG OTHER THINGS.

You are the one described here as "the unlearned and unstable" wresting scripture.
Take the warning given by Peter...stop suggesting Calvinists bring "another gospel, which is exactly what you deny day after day, from one board to another, and your careless antinomianism shows it...they go hand in hand.


17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
Click to expand...
Peter had trouble with Paul's Gospel, just like you have trouble with it.

"But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed" Galatians 2:11. Paul had to straighten out Peter and Barnabas because they didn't understand the Gospel. You don't understand the Gospel either. This is why you have embraced a false religion that has been conceived by a heretic.
 
Robert Pate said:
Adam and Eve did not lose their free will in the fall. Where does it say that? What they lost was their relationship with God.

Cane by his own free will slew Abel. All through the Old Testament and into the New Testament we see people exerting their free will. King David by his own free will committed adultery with Basheba. Maybe you believe that God predestinated King David to committed adultery with Bathsheba? If that is what you believe please don't read any further, you are beyond help.

Saving that man does not have a free will is an insult to common sense and is an insult to God who is the creator of man. Calvinists want us to believe that humanity is nothing but a bunch of dumb robots that cannot think for themselves because they have been predestinated to be blind and stupid.

The word "Predestinate" appears only four times in the New Testament. None of the four words have anything to do with anyone being predestinated to heaven or to hell. The words "heaven" and "hell" are not associated with the word "predestinated." If predestination was a true doctrine about people being predestinated to heaven or to hell the Bible would be full of it, there is nothing. The words "Faith" and "Believe" appear in the Bible hundreds of times.

Who are Calvinist? Calvinist are people like Catholics, JW"s, etc. that have rejected the historical Gospel of Jesus Christ and have formed their own religion and doctrines. Of all of the false religions Calvinism is the easiest to refute because it is so far from the truth. Calvinism can be refuted with just one scripture, John 3:16.
Click to expand...
says "Adam and Eve did not lose their free will in the fall. Where does it say that? What they lost was their relationship with God."

Where does it say that? They did not lose their relationship with God, they lost the Garden of Eden, and gained punishments as a result of their disobedience, but they did not lose their relationship with God.

says "Saving that man does not have a free will is an insult to common sense and is an insult to God who is the creator of man."

True

says " Calvinists want us to believe that humanity is nothing but a bunch of dumb robots that cannot think for themselves because they have been predestinated to be blind and stupid."

No Love for Calvinists (professing Christians) here, is there? How about we not address Calvinists as a whole, but address the issues they believe in (their Doctrines) that you don't agree with? Love the People, not what they believe in.

says "The word "Predestinate" appears only four times in the New Testament. None of the four words have anything to do with anyone being predestinated to heaven or to hell. The words "heaven" and "hell" are not associated with the word "predestinated." If predestination was a true doctrine about people being predestinated to heaven or to hell the Bible would be full of it, there is nothing. The words "Faith" and "Believe" appear in the Bible hundreds of times."

This statement is True. There are some who are predestined to fulfill the Will of God. That does not mean they are predestined to go to Heaven or to Hell. However there are a few exceptions to this as well. For example the antichrist is predestined to be the antichrist, and is indeed predestined to be cast into the Lake of Fire.

says "Who are Calvinist? Calvinist are people like Catholics, JW"s, etc. that have rejected the historical Gospel of Jesus Christ and have formed their own religion and doctrines."

How is this not MOST people from this last days generation? i am certain that you also have formed your own doctrines that you believe in, that are contrary to the Word of God. ( ie. OSAS, Water baptism saves you, Pretrib, impossible to cease from sinning, etc.) So then if you accuse these as believing in false doctrines, all the while you also believe in false doctrines, what does that make you?
 
Iconoclast said:
The law is not abolished...Christians are not antinomian. You do not get it.
The law was never meant to be for man to justify himself.
We are saved by law keeping.
Click to expand...
Under the Old Covenant, they (the Israelites) were Saved by Law Keeping. And sacrificing this or that when they fail to obey the Law, Statutes, and ordinances.

Under the New Covenant we GET SAVED by merely believing in Jesus and accepting Him as our sacrifice for the past sins that we had committed.

Iconoclast said:
We are saved by the law keeping of another, THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.
Now we fulfill the Law which is in our heart, if we are believers Romans13:8-10
Click to expand...

You would do well to understand there is a difference between Getting Saved, No Works required, and Living SAVED, must Keep His Commandments. Here are those two videos to help you better understand.

Getting Saved, Vs Being Saved:

What are Keeping His Commandments:
 
Iconoclast said:
You cannot find free will in the bible, so your question is null and void.
Click to expand...

It is True that you can't find the words "Free Will" in the Bible, but you do error if you think we do not have free will.

Tell me, is it God's will that NONE PERISH?

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not WILLing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

So then this plainly and clearly teaches that it is the Will of God that NONE PERISH, Will that be the case though, even though it is His Will that none perish, Will all go to Heaven because the Will of God is that none perish?
Tell me was it the Will of God, that war was in Heaven? Was it God's Will that the Archangel Lucifer rebelled, and tried to take the Thone of God?

Tell me, when you are fixing to choose to commit a sin, is it the will of God that you do so, or is it YOUR OWN WILL that freely commits the sin AGAINST GOD, by YOU choosing to obey His enemy the devil and commit that sin?

Why do you think throughout all of Scriptures, God was pleased or displeased with the actions of humans? Because they most certainly had free will to choose those actions they committed. IF they chose to NOT obey sin, God was pleased with their Choice. If they chose to commit sin, He was displeased with their choice.

Tell me, if you owned a business. And you already know that Jill will show up late 42 times during her employment with you, why would you hire her? If you then KNOW she is not going to make it to work tomorrow, would you be displeased when she did NOT show up tomorrow? No, because you already knew she was not going to show up. So then why is God displeased time and time again with the choices people made? i will tell you why. FREE WILL that God grants humans to have.

Know you not that all living humans are here on this planet to be TESTED, to see who we choose to obey and serve, whether that is God or SELF. The Kingdom of Heaven desire inhabitants that Love Others and NOT self. The Kingdom of Heaven will reject all those who think of SELF more than of others.
 
DiscipleDave said:
says "Adam and Eve did not lose their free will in the fall. Where does it say that? What they lost was their relationship with God."

Where does it say that? They did not lose their relationship with God, they lost the Garden of Eden, and gained punishments as a result of their disobedience, but they did not lose their relationship with God.

says "Saving that man does not have a free will is an insult to common sense and is an insult to God who is the creator of man."

True

says " Calvinists want us to believe that humanity is nothing but a bunch of dumb robots that cannot think for themselves because they have been predestinated to be blind and stupid."

No Love for Calvinists (professing Christians) here, is there? How about we not address Calvinists as a whole, but address the issues they believe in (their Doctrines) that you don't agree with? Love the People, not what they believe in.

says "The word "Predestinate" appears only four times in the New Testament. None of the four words have anything to do with anyone being predestinated to heaven or to hell. The words "heaven" and "hell" are not associated with the word "predestinated." If predestination was a true doctrine about people being predestinated to heaven or to hell the Bible would be full of it, there is nothing. The words "Faith" and "Believe" appear in the Bible hundreds of times."

This statement is True. There are some who are predestined to fulfill the Will of God. That does not mean they are predestined to go to Heaven or to Hell. However there are a few exceptions to this as well. For example the antichrist is predestined to be the antichrist, and is indeed predestined to be cast into the Lake of Fire.

says "Who are Calvinist? Calvinist are people like Catholics, JW"s, etc. that have rejected the historical Gospel of Jesus Christ and have formed their own religion and doctrines."

How is this not MOST people from this last days generation? i am certain that you also have formed your own doctrines that you believe in, that are contrary to the Word of God. ( ie. OSAS, Water baptism saves you, Pretrib, impossible to cease from sinning, etc.) So then if you accuse these as believing in false doctrines, all the while you also believe in false doctrines, what does that make you?
Click to expand...
What I believe is according to the New Covenant, the Gospel and justification by faith. I believe what Paul taught.
 
Free will is a doctrine of man coming from his own pride.

That is why Election is one of the most hated doctrines of the Bible.

It threatens mans pride and taking him off the pedestal.
 
T
DiscipleDave said:
It is True that you can't find the words "Free Will" in the Bible, but you do error if you think we do not have free will.

Tell me, is it God's will that NONE PERISH?

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not WILLing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

So then this plainly and clearly teaches that it is the Will of God that NONE PERISH, Will that be the case though, even though it is His Will that none perish, Will all go to Heaven because the Will of God is that none perish?
Tell me was it the Will of God, that war was in Heaven? Was it God's Will that the Archangel Lucifer rebelled, and tried to take the Thone of God?

Tell me, when you are fixing to choose to commit a sin, is it the will of God that you do so, or is it YOUR OWN WILL that freely commits the sin AGAINST GOD, by YOU choosing to obey His enemy the devil and commit that sin?

Why do you think throughout all of Scriptures, God was pleased or displeased with the actions of humans? Because they most certainly had free will to choose those actions they committed. IF they chose to NOT obey sin, God was pleased with their Choice. If they chose to commit sin, He was displeased with their choice.

Tell me, if you owned a business. And you already know that Jill will show up late 42 times during her employment with you, why would you hire her? If you then KNOW she is not going to make it to work tomorrow, would you be displeased when she did NOT show up tomorrow? No, because you already knew she was not going to show up. So then why is God displeased time and time again with the choices people made? i will tell you why. FREE WILL that God grants humans to have.

Know you not that all living humans are here on this planet to be TESTED, to see who we choose to obey and serve, whether that is God or SELF. The Kingdom of Heaven desire inhabitants that Love Others and NOT self. The Kingdom of Heaven will reject all those who think of SELF more than of others.
Click to expand...
He is more than willing that many perish.You pull that verse out and use it incorrec tly.
DiscipleDave said:
It is True that you can't find the words "Free Will" in the Bible, but you do error if you think we do not have free will.

Tell me, is it God's will that NONE PERISH?

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not WILLing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

So then this plainly and clearly teaches that it is the Will of God that NONE PERISH, Will that be the case though, even though it is His Will that none perish, Will all go to Heaven because the Will of God is that none perish?
Tell me was it the Will of God, that war was in Heaven? Was it God's Will that the Archangel Lucifer rebelled, and tried to take the Thone of God?

Tell me, when you are fixing to choose to commit a sin, is it the will of God that you do so, or is it YOUR OWN WILL that freely commits the sin AGAINST GOD, by YOU choosing to obey His enemy the devil and commit that sin?

Why do you think throughout all of Scriptures, God was pleased or displeased with the actions of humans? Because they most certainly had free will to choose those actions they committed. IF they chose to NOT obey sin, God was pleased with their Choice. If they chose to commit sin, He was displeased with their choice.

Tell me, if you owned a business. And you already know that Jill will show up late 42 times during her employment with you, why would you hire her? If you then KNOW she is not going to make it to work tomorrow, would you be displeased when she did NOT show up tomorrow? No, because you already knew she was not going to show up. So then why is God displeased time and time again with the choices people made? i will tell you why. FREE WILL that God grants humans to have.

Know you not that all living humans are here on this planet to be TESTED, to see who we choose to obey and serve, whether that is God or SELF. The Kingdom of Heaven desire inhabitants that Love Others and NOT self. The Kingdom of Heaven will reject all those who think of SELF more than of others.
Click to expand...
 
Iconoclast said:
God Himself does not have Free will.
Is He free,to lie?
Is He free to sin?
Is He free to change?
Click to expand...
God has the free will to do evil. Where does it say that he can't? I think that one of the most foolish teachings of Calvinism is that man does not have a free will. Was it ordained of God before the foundation of the world that you would change your shorts this morning.
 
Robert Pate said:
God has the free will to do evil. Where does it say that he can't? I think that one of the most foolish teachings of Calvinism is that man does not have a free will. Was it ordained of God before the foundation of the world that you would change your shorts this morning.
Click to expand...
As I suspected. You are not speaking of the biblical God, who cannot sin, being perfectly Holy.
He is unknown to you as Paul preached the sermon in Acts 17 to carnal philosophers....he explained to them the unknown God.

You cling to your idol of man having a free will in stead on lesrning of Jesus.
 
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