[_ Old Earth _] Can atheistic evolution explain this?

[cubedbee]

So, I'm watching an Animal Planet show, and learn about this remarkable parasite. Now, I'm not usually one to buy the arguments that animals are too complex to have evolved through simply natural selection, but this one is pushing it.


Dicrocoelium has perhaps the most complex
and fascinating life cycle of any parasite found in
domestic animals in Newfoundland and Labrador. The
adult flatworms are found in the bile ducts of the liver
of sheep, cattle, pigs, goats, rabbits, members of the
deer family and rarely in humans. Adults are
hermaphrodites, that is both male and female, and so
individuals can produce live eggs. The eggs pass
down the bile duct and into the intestines and out into
the environment in feces.

Snails eat the eggs which hatch and eventually
form cercaria. The cercaria live in the snail’s
respiratory chamber and are released to the
environment in slime balls. It normally takes three to
four months for the parasite to complete the snail
portion of its life cycle.

The slime balls are a favoured food of ants, and
once ingested the cercaria move to the abdomen of the
ant. One or two of these cercaria move to the ant’s
head and establish themselves in the brain. When
cercaria are present in the brain, ants which normally
move into their nests with cold temperatures will move
up to the tops of vegetation. The affected insects
clamp their jaws unto the plant and remain paralyzed
as long as the temperature stays below 20oC. The
parasite normally spends one to two months inside its
ant host.

The fact that infected ants tend to be at the top
of vegetation increases the chances that they will be
eaten by grazing sheep. Once the ants are eaten and
digested the parasite moves from the sheep’s intestines
up to the liver by way of the bile duct. About eleven
weeks after ingestion by the sheep, Dicrocoelium
develops into adults capable of laying eggs and starting
the cycle again.

 

[Heidi]

Creation is indeed a miracle. It is so complex yet all comes from a plan that man has tried for centuries to explain as non-miraculous in order to deny that God exists. The problem is that man's understanding is so narrow that he cannot even fathom why this all happens even though he thinks he can. But he always overlooks a myriad of systems and and facts in his explanations. Man still cannot explain how the stars, sun, moon, earth, and all living things were formed, but nevertheless they exist. It's really sad that man sees himself as master of the universe which leads him to believe he can understand it all. This kind of thinking is what leads him to invent a creature from which he thinks the human being was formed. :o

 

[cubedbee]

Sorry, I forgot the link in my original post. I also didn't actually name the parasite, which is Dicrocoelium dendriticum, the lancet fluke.

http://www.nr.gov.nl.ca/agric/animal_di ... /dicro.pdf

 

[peace4all]

reminds me alot of that one tree in (africa or new zealand) methinks that is going extinct because its seeds used to be eaten by the do-do, and then when excreeted, they could finaly grow...

 

[SyntaxVorlon]

It's a matter of a creature that has become incredibly specialized for its environment, in other times its ancestors could have spent part of their lifecycle in a pond instead of in a snail, but the ones that got eaten and excreted by certain snails did better and eventually took over the species.

 

[SyntaxVorlon]

How odd, the forum doesn't allow me to quote you. At any rate it is just as simple as that, it's just not very simple to start out with. I'm saying that parasitism became a part of that creatures ancestors lifecycle eons ago. It's just adapted its parasitism into a collection of cycles that occur very very often in its environment. Its ancestors may have been more versitile parasites that could have jumped from snails to ants to dogs to birds to dogs to whatever. This was great for them at the time but it was inefficient. But the most efficient cycle snail-ant-dog-snail got selective breeding pressure. Add in some sort of phage that kills off a huge section of parasites or an adaptation in the birds that stops the lifecycle and whats left is this parasite.

 

[cubedbee]

How odd, the forum doesn't allow me to quote you. At any rate it is just as simple as that, it's just not very simple to start out with. I'm saying that parasitism became a part of that creatures ancestors lifecycle eons ago. It's just adapted its parasitism into a collection of cycles that occur very very often in its environment. Its ancestors may have been more versitile parasites that could have jumped from snails to ants to dogs to birds to dogs to whatever. This was great for them at the time but it was inefficient. But the most efficient cycle snail-ant-dog-snail got selective breeding pressure. Add in some sort of phage that kills off a huge section of parasites or an adaptation in the birds that stops the lifecycle and whats left is this parasite.

I accidently submitted a partially completed post and then deleted it right away, so that's why you couldn't quote it.

It's a matter of a creature that has become incredibly specialized for its environment, in other times its ancestors could have spent part of their lifecycle in a pond instead of in a snail, but the ones that got eaten and excreted by certain snails did better and eventually took over the species.

I don't think it's that simple.

All flukes have a life cycle that involves both a snail and a vertebrate, so if you cut one of the intermediate hosts out, it should be the ant, not the snail.

Now, the vast majority of flukes have two free-swimming stages---right after the egg hatches and after the larva has developed in the snail. In the first stage, the larva seeks out the intermediate snail host and infects it; in the second stage the larva seeks out and attaches itself to aquatic plants that will be eaten by its vertebrate host.

Unlike most other flukes, Dicrocoelium dendriticum has no free-swimming stage. Its eggs will not hatch until they are ingested by a land snail. And, being a land snail, the developed larva cannot swim out and so must be released through in the mucus of the snail.

I have no problem with a duel snail-vertebrate host--it's quite easy to envision this happening. The problem is, how did this one fluke evolve away from the others into a land-based non-swimming one?

 

[Khristeeanos]

All animals are too complex to have "evolved" by natural selection.

And humans are as well. ;)

Take any part of the human body or things like the neck of a giraffe, the feet of an elephant, the firing capability of the bombadier beetle, and countless other amazing animals that all point towards an intelligent Creator.

 

[SyntaxVorlon]

It's probably something like a change of environment, suddenly sheep have figured out not to stand by ponds or drink from them and they leave as a food source but ants act as another foodstuff. Eventually for this one fluke, the ant becomes necessary for its lifecycle, not just useful.

 

[peace4all]

All animals are too complex to have "evolved" by natural selection.

And humans are as well. ;)

Take any part of the human body or things like the neck of a giraffe, the feet of an elephant, the firing capability of the bombadier beetle, and countless other amazing animals that all point towards an intelligent Creator.

except for, you know, your apendix....

 

[ArtGuy]

except for, you know, your apendix....

The fact that we don't yet know the purpose of the appendix doesn't mean it doesn't somehow contribute to the viability of the human body.

 

[peace4all]

so far all we know is that a Human can live perfectly fine with out one, and that its only use is to catch foodstuffs and create apendecitius (sp)

I do agree however, Science usually always will find an answer, no matter how long it takes..

 

[Khristeeanos]

so far all we know is that a Human can live perfectly fine with out one, and that its only use is to catch foodstuffs and create apendecitius (sp)

I do agree however, Science usually always will find an answer, no matter how long it takes..

The appendix is your rebuttal?

It wasn't too long ago that people thought that there were dozens of vestigal organs and we have now found out their use.

Tonsals are just one that could be named.



I often wonder how an eye could "evolve" in segments. The odds that it could happen by mere chance are so overwhelming as to be impossible.

 

[cubedbee]

I often wonder how an eye could "evolve" in segments. The odds that it could happen by mere chance are so overwhelming as to be impossible.

Yes you’re right that the eye could not have occurred by random chance. But, it could, and did, evolve via natural selection, which is decidedly non-random.

 

[ArtGuy]

I often wonder how an eye could "evolve" in segments. The odds that it could happen by mere chance are so overwhelming as to be impossible.

The steps are actually pretty reasonable. You would start with a single cell that is sensitive to light, which we see quite often in nature. If one cell is good, several cells are better. You get enough cells, and you can start to make out subtlety and detail, and instead of just detecting light, you have a low-res image of whatever's in front of you. A membrane over those cells would protect them, and if that membrane becomes lens shaped - hey, awesome. In time, you work your way up to a modern eye.

 

[peace4all]

I often wonder how an eye could "evolve" in segments. The odds that it could happen by mere chance are so overwhelming as to be impossible.

The steps are actually pretty reasonable. You would start with a single cell that is sensitive to light, which we see quite often in nature. If one cell is good, several cells are better. You get enough cells, and you can start to make out subtlety and detail, and instead of just detecting light, you have a low-res image of whatever's in front of you. A membrane over those cells would protect them, and if that membrane becomes lens shaped - hey, awesome. In time, you work your way up to a modern eye.

Hence, why humans see so well, and other animals see other ways. Some are blind, but can detect notion well, some are totally blind...


I am sorry that all I said was apendix. Usually when I state multiple arguments, someoen picks out the weakest, and attacks it, leaving the other's to rest alone. This time I just tossed the first that came to mind.

 

[BradtheImpaler]

Dicrocoelium has perhaps the most complex
and fascinating life cycle of any parasite found in
domestic animals in Newfoundland and Labrador. The
adult flatworms are found in the bile ducts of the liver
of sheep, cattle, pigs, goats, rabbits, members of the
deer family and rarely in humans. Adults are
hermaphrodites, that is both male and female, and so
individuals can produce live eggs

So God created parasites? Thank you, Jesus!

 

[peace4all]

Dicrocoelium has perhaps the most complex
and fascinating life cycle of any parasite found in
domestic animals in Newfoundland and Labrador. The
adult flatworms are found in the bile ducts of the liver
of sheep, cattle, pigs, goats, rabbits, members of the
deer family and rarely in humans. Adults are
hermaphrodites, that is both male and female, and so
individuals can produce live eggs

So God created parasites? Thank you, Jesus!

Isn't it Obvious?

ever since adam sinned, God is punishing everyone, by making any of the "beasts" we are supposed to tame, riddled with problems, so we can get sick, or die, or become malnourished our whatever.

 

[BradtheImpaler]

ever since adam sinned, God is punishing everyone, by making any of the "beasts" we are supposed to tame, riddled with problems, so we can get sick, or die, or become malnourished our whatever.

Well, after all, we deserve it don't we - for the crime of being born human beings?

 

[SyntaxVorlon]

The reason this fluke has a life cycle as specialized as it is is simply a matter of it being a fluke. That is it happened upon a few lucky coincidences, at nearly impossible odds, in other words, it's so commonplace as to be boring.