Bible Study Can one have a sinful desire for a woman INSIDE of Marriage?

[cyberjosh]

In other words: Can a man have sinful lust for his own wife? Paul in 1 Corinthians 7:9 says, "But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion." So it seems that Marriage is a good thing to prevent living a life of lust, thus this is why we consequently believe as Christians that sex outside of Marriage is wrong.

But logic dictates (and as a commentary I read hinted) that lust in any context is wrong, and that it could be possible to sinfully lust after one's own wife. A pure marriage of integrity must be held together by a bond of true, selfless love (in Greek agape) and not a bond of simply sensual attraction. If a married man sets his mind on sensual things, even of his own wife, I believe there to be a point where a line can be crossed into the area of being depraved of mind. And it would almost be like viewing one's mate as a tool to channel sensuality, much like pornography which is an impersonal (removed) type of lust.

So I don't think that Marriage is a 100% safety net from lust, although according to Paul in 1 Cor. 7:9 it certainly helps. Where is the fine line? What are your thoughts on this? Do you disagree?

 

[golfjack]

reply

Let me give you a view from a 63 year old male. Doesn't the Bible say their is no deefilement in the marriage bed? To me, men are very visual, and a woman is very emotional. Marriages in America are going down hill, with about of 50 percent divorce rate. Why is that? One of the biggest problems are in the sexual area. To put it blunt, men and woman are not getting enough. Is it wrong for a woman or man in marriage to excite each other? Of course not. My wife always wants to please me, and will go to Victoria's secret to buy some sexy underwear. The point I am trying to maker is when my wife is working, I do visualize her in a future sex act. Sometimes I call her, and ask her if she wants to get naked. As long as 2 people agree as to what they can do in the marriage bed, like oral sex, and other things, I see nothing wrong with that. Sex is to be enjoyed and a man and woman have an obligation to fill the needs of their mates except when one wants to pray. We do make it a practice to have sex at least 3 times a week. Therefore, I believe we should all enjoy the priveledges of marriage.


May God bless, golfjack

 

[Atonement]

God gave each of us a desire, and not to desire your wife would tell me that you lost that flame you once had for your wife. Never does it say it's wrong to desire your wife. God Bless ya man.. And desire on.. Fulfill her every need.


And yours

 

[CatholicXian]

Lust and desire are NOT the same thing...

Lust is a kind of desire... a sinful one. And definitely not appropriate in marriage. Lust sees the other person as an object of gratification, not a person to be loved.

There is a legitimate desire for one's spouse (even sexually), but it is a loving desire, not a lustful one.

 

[Oscar3]

Well, I don't know how this will go over. But is it wrong to masterbate while thinking of your wife :

 

[Remember]

Re: Can one have a sinful desire for a woman INSIDE of Marri

In other words: Can a man have sinful lust for his own wife? Paul in 1 Corinthians 7:9 says, "But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion." So it seems that Marriage is a good thing to prevent living a life of lust, thus this is why we consequently believe as Christians that sex outside of Marriage is wrong.

But logic dictates (and as a commentary I read hinted) that lust in any context is wrong, and that it could be possible to sinfully lust after one's own wife. A pure marriage of integrity must be held together by a bond of true, selfless love (in Greek agape) and not a bond of simply sensual attraction. If a married man sets his mind on sensual things, even of his own wife, I believe there to be a point where a line can be crossed into the area of being depraved of mind. And it would almost be like viewing one's mate as a tool to channel sensuality, much like pornography which is an impersonal (removed) type of lust.

So I don't think that Marriage is a 100% safety net from lust, although according to Paul in 1 Cor. 7:9 it certainly helps. Where is the fine line? What are your thoughts on this? Do you disagree?

Matthew 6:33
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

If one keeps God first in thought, word and deed, the marriage will not become depraved.

Col 3:16-19

16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.

19 Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them.
KJV

The marriage will be a union of Godly love.

 

[CatholicXian]

Well, I don't know how this will go over. But is it wrong to masterbate while thinking of your wife :

There's a thread about this somewhere in the Parenting and Marriage forum, I think.

if you want my honest opinion (which I think has some serious evidence behind its truth...): yes. For the reasons in my post above. It treats the other person as an object of selfish pleasure and gratification rather than as a person (whole and entire) to be loved. Masturbation is an entirely lustful act.

 

[cyberjosh]

Matthew 6:33
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

If one keeps God first in thought, word and deed, the marriage will not become depraved.

I know that, but the question was whether it can be defiled or not. Is it possible to go to far?

Lust sees the other person as an object of gratification, not a person to be loved.

There is a legitimate desire for one's spouse (even sexually), but it is a loving desire, not a lustful one.

Right that's what I was saying about the difference between agape love and purely sensual desire. Unless of course they can coincide.

 

[Preacher Boy]

If you are hurt or degrading your partner to fulfil lust then it is very selfish and unloving of you.

Trying things with her that you saw in a pron flick is wicked, I do believe that God stays out of the bedroom because the marraige bed is undefiled, but that doesnt mean you can sexually abuse her. You need to be in agreement for the acts you want to do.

Genesis 38:9-10
(9) And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.
(10) And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.

I would be careful about the self pleasing thing :o

 

[D46]

I don't think what Onan did had anything to do with what some suspect. The sin of Onan has generally been supposed to be self-pollution; but this is certainly a mistake; his crime was his refusal to raise up seed to his brother, and rather than do it, by the act mentioned above, he rendered himself incapable of it. We find from this history that long be fore the Mosaic law it was an established custom, probably founded on a Divine precept, that if a man died childless his brother was to take his wife, and the children produced by this second marriage were considered as the children of the first husband, and in consequence inherited his possessions.

 

[cyberjosh]

D46 is correct in his interpretation of what Onan did, I've studied on it before.

But back to the main topic, I agree with what Preacher Boy said about trying something with your wife that you saw on a porn flick is wicked. This would be a line-crossing that I was refering to. How does this fit in with what other people here have said about the bed being undefiled?

 

[Preacher Boy]

I don't think what Onan did had anything to do with what some suspect...

Yeah I know the context, I was just jesting.

 

[Oscar3]

There's a thread about this somewhere in the Parenting and Marriage forum, I think.

if you want my honest opinion (which I think has some serious evidence behind its truth...): yes. For the reasons in my post above. It treats the other person as an object of selfish pleasure and gratification rather than as a person (whole and entire) to be loved. Masturbation is an entirely lustful act.

CatholicXian
Let me put this in proper context for you. My wife enjoys watching me edit while I look her edit for me. Is this wrong.
I can't believe I am talking about this. By the way are you a male or female?

Come on man hehe Edits made by Atonement

 

[cyberjosh]

Let me put this in proper context for you. My wife enjoys watching me edit while I look her edit for me. Is this wrong.

Ask your self this: is this what God intended sex for? I really don't think so. What does this satisfy except the flesh? Why did God ordain sex in the first place, wasn't it "be fruitful and multiply?" Onan did die for failing to do that, because he did not keep a particular aspect of the law dealing with that.

Now that we're already on a touchy topic, isn't that also a waste of sperm? I've asked myself this before. I'm guilty of maturbating before also, but because of my concience I have ceased to do so. Actually it was a stronghold of lust in my life which God broke. I am not married, and I have never had sex before (because sex outside of marriage is wrong), but out of firsthand concern for how powerful lust can be in a person's life I brought up this topic among my many musings on moral questions.

But lust is actually a very big temptation for all men (though it doesn't always become a stronghold for every man), and we must strive by the power of Christ to break it. Many books these days and even pastors recognize that lust is a large problem among Christian males in this modernday secular society where sex is paraded around as a trophy in every concievable medium, especially the internet. I just pray that every man can sumbit their thoughts under the authority of Christ and examine their motives so that they can live, and have a sexual realations in a pure way, in holiness.

 

[CatholicXian]

CatholicXian
Let me put this in proper context for you. My wife enjoys watching me edit while I look her edit for me. Is this wrong.
I can't believe I am talking about this. By the way are you a male or female?

Come on man hehe Edits made by Atonement

Erm, I still stand by my previous post. Wife "watching" or not... but I'd rather stay away from personal situations.

I'm a female. Not that my gender should really matter to much... one doesn't have to be male or female to grasp the difference between love and lust, between treating a spouse like a person, or an object of self-pleasure and gratification.

 

[CatholicXian]

And re: Onan... death was not the punishment for not giving your brother's widow children (it was public humiliation). Ergo, unless God arbitrarily decided to punish Onan further (which, God is not arbitrary and doesn't disregard His own decrees), something else is going on in the text that causes God to strike Onan dead.

 

[father--son--holy spirit]

Ask your self this: is this what God intended sex for? I really don't think so. What does this satisfy except the flesh? Why did God ordain sex in the first place, wasn't it "be fruitful and multiply?"

I think god intended sex to be more than "to multiply". I think god wants us to enjoy it! I think as long as both the husband and wife should be able to do anything they want with there sex life..and as long as its not agianst any of gods commands.

 

[father--son--holy spirit]

Ask your self this: is this what God intended sex for? I really don't think so. What does this satisfy except the flesh? Why did God ordain sex in the first place, wasn't it "be fruitful and multiply?"

I think god intended sex to be more than "to multiply". I think god wants us to enjoy it! I think as long as both the husband and wife agree, they should be able to do anything they want with there sex life... as long as its not agianst any of gods commands.

 

[cyberjosh]

I think god intended sex to be more than "to multiply". I think god wants us to enjoy it! I think as long as both the husband and wife should be able to do anything they want with there sex life..and as long as its not agianst any of gods commands.

Well, you are probably lucky you didn't see the edited parts of the post I replied to, but that type of sexual action he mentioned didn't even involve physical contact between the two of them. And yes God intended us to enjoy sex but I say that is a by-product, because as you've seen the world has completely gotten that one backwards and elevated the pleasure aspect to enormous proportions and completely left out the love part, and now that we have abortion and birth control the "multiply part" is out too. But for the sake of this discussion that last sentance isn't relevant to what that person whose post I commented on was saying.

What they did could have been done from different parts of the world by a live video feed. Almost like phone sex. I really don't think God intended seminal emissions to be apart from physical contact with the mate with whom you are supposed to be making love with. I call that a waste of seed, and making pleasure the prime object, not love.

 

[cyberjosh]

I found a list of statments by early church fathers to modern times that condemned any kind of contaception or wasting of sperm. Some I agree with, other's I just don't know what to think about it. Read and decide for yourself:

In A.D. 195, Clement of Alexandria wrote, "Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly ejaculated, nor is it to be damaged, nor is it to be wasted" (The Instructor of Children 2:10:91:2).

Hippolytus of Rome wrote in 255 that "on account of their prominent ancestry and great property, the so-called faithful [certain Christian women who had affairs with male servants] want no children from slaves or lowborn commoners, [so] they use drugs of sterility or bind themselves tightly in order to expel a fetus which has already been engendered" (Refutation of All Heresies 9:12).

Around 307 Lactantius explained that some "complain of the scantiness of their means, and allege that they have not enough for bringing up more children, as though, in truth, their means were in [their] power . . . or God did not daily make the rich poor and the poor rich. Wherefore, if any one on any account of poverty shall be unable to bring up children, it is better to abstain from relations with his wife" (Divine Institutes 6:20).

The First Council of Nicaea, the first ecumenical council and the one that defined Christ’s divinity, declared in 325, "If anyone in sound health has castrated himself, it behooves that such a one, if enrolled among the clergy, should cease [from his ministry], and that from henceforth no such person should be promoted. But, as it is evident that this is said of those who willfully do the thing and presume to castrate themselves, so if any have been made eunuchs by barbarians, or by their masters, and should otherwise be found worthy, such men this canon admits to the clergy" (Canon 1).

Augustine wrote in 419, "I am supposing, then, although you are not lying [with your wife] for the sake of procreating offspring, you are not for the sake of lust obstructing their procreation by an evil prayer or an evil deed. Those who do this, although they are called husband and wife, are not; nor do they retain any reality of marriage, but with a respectable name cover a shame. Sometimes this lustful cruelty, or cruel lust, comes to this, that they even procure poisons of sterility [oral contraceptives]" (Marriage and Concupiscence 1:15:17).

The apostolic tradition’s condemnation of contraception is so great that it was followed by Protestants until 1930 and was upheld by all key Protestant Reformers. Martin Luther said, "[T]he exceedingly foul deed of Onan, the basest of wretches . . . is a most disgraceful sin. It is far more atrocious than incest and adultery. We call it unchastity, yes, a sodomitic sin. For Onan goes in to her; that is, he lies with her and copulates, and when it comes to the point of insemination, spills the semen, lest the woman conceive. Surely at such a time the order of nature established by God in procreation should be followed. Accordingly, it was a most disgraceful crime. . . . Consequently, he deserved to be killed by God. He committed an evil deed. Therefore, God punished him."

John Calvin said, "The voluntary spilling of semen outside of intercourse between man and woman is a monstrous thing. Deliberately to withdraw from coitus in order that semen may fall on the ground is doubly monstrous. For this is to extinguish the hope of the race and to kill before he is born the hoped-for offspring."

John Wesley warned, "Those sins that dishonor the body are very displeasing to God, and the evidence of vile affections. Observe, the thing which he [Onan] did displeased the Lordâ€â€and it is to be feared; thousands, especially of single persons, by this very thing, still displease the Lord, and destroy their own souls." (These passages are quoted in Charles D. Provan, The Bible and Birth Control, which contains many quotes by historic Protestant figures who recognize contraception’s evils.)

The first one, by Clement of Alexandria, is probably the most simply put and was basically what I was saying. And I can't believe my eyes but it seem that Augustine agrees with me that lust can be done inside of marriage!!!