Can You Agree with This ?

[Jay T]

Questions, Christian need to know & Answer !

How many people who claim to be Christians realize, the vast importance of the in-depth meaning of words ?

For example: When a person hears the word: Sin
What is the first thing that pops into the mind ?

How many people realize that without a 'correct' Biblical definition of the word: Sin.....there cannot...be any salvation !

Salvation is suppose to be, 'from' sin, right ?
Matthew 1:21 "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people 'FROM'....their sins".

Do you know what 1 John 3:4 says ?
(Yes or No )

Do you know what Romans 7:7 says ?
(Yes or No )

These 2 Bible text should be memorized.....Absolutely, and totally.....IF, one wishes to be in heaven !

Salvation is impossible.....without the knowledge of the Biblical meaning of sin.

God says that NO ONE...who practices sin....will enter heaven.
Revelation 21:27 "And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie....".

*******************************************************************
OK, Let's jump to another word, that without a 'correct' Biblical knowledge of its true meaning....a Christian, is in GREAT DANGER !!!

And, that word is ....RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Again, ( IS this Bible verse memorized ?)....how many know that Psalms 119:172 defines, what RIGHTEOUSNESS is ?
(Yes or No )

How can any Christian, have the Righteousness of Christ, in their lives.....IF....they don't know what it is ?
*******************************************************************
Another word that few really understand......and that word is....GRACE !

How many understand that the words, 'Grace and Obedience', are tied together, in the Bible ?
(Yes or No )

Most in the Christian world agree that grace, is a free gift from God.....and that is correct.
BUT....there is another BIBLE meaning for the word: Grace, that many, if not most, are ignoring....to their own peril !

Ever really studied.....Romans 1:5........and, Titus 2:11-12 ?



BOTTOM LINE: "My people are destroyed....for lack of knowledge..."(Hosea 4:6)

 

[Rick W]

Well Jay T. I suppose knowledge of biblical text may have aided many but I never knew what the bible really said, wasn't at all interested anyway, until after I was saved back in '98. Sure I knew about the 10 commandments and knew the biblical stories taught to me as a kid in Sunday school class but other than that I could care less.
I gotta tell ya though. After that event I totally devoured the bible. I could actually read it. It made sense whereas before it was nothing more than a gaggle of contradictions strung together.

Sin? Yes, I knew doing bad wasn't good and I didn't know some of the things I thought were ok were really bad. For example one-night stands were no problem for me, two consenting adults. No biggie. But after being saved I knew then that stuff wasn't right and of course scripture confirmed that.

There was a lot to learn... who Jesus is, why He did what He did and what was going on beforehand that compelled Him to do it. Did I know what happened that night I was saved? No, not really. All I knew is I wanted to find out who this fellow was and over some time I finally realized what had happened.

It's not the same for everyone. Some answer altar call and are saved. Some pray in the privacy of their home to receive Christ and some find him in tribulation of one form or another. It varies quite a bit and I've found there's no real common "process" of salvation.

I will say this though. Before salvation I thought I knew what sin was, going against the laws I was to live within. Man's law. The law of men has some similarities but the sinful nature has a way of twisting things to please itself and it was these laws I followed.
Well, sort of. :

Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Romans 2:15 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

do by nature the things contained in the law

So here we have Gentiles who have their own laws yet the transgression thereof is their sin.

 

[Jay T]

There was a lot to learn... who Jesus is, why He did what He did and what was going on beforehand that compelled Him to do it. Did I know what happened that night I was saved? No, not really. All I knew is I wanted to find out who this fellow was and over some time I finally realized what had happened.

You my friend, have taken a giant step forward in your Christian experience.
Consider this Bible verse very carefully......
Psalms 19:7 The law of the LORD [is] perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD [is] sure, making wise the simple.

From this, do you see that the Law of God, has a place in the conversion proccess ?

The law cannot save anyone, as you well know, but its job is merely to point out our mistakes....then, we go to Jesus to ask forgiveness of those mistakes, and ask Jesus to help us not, to make those same mistakes again.

On my website listed below, there are several topics that cover this subject very carefully !

 

[Rick W]

Conversion process?
Do you mean sanctification? If so then yes, I'd agree with the OP. I took "salvation" to have been refering to the actual event, at the moment. And knowing what sin really is as a prerequisite to "being saved", the intitial event thereof.
But I see now where you're coming from.
There is much to the subject Jay T. And what a wonderful well of thought you've opened here. It's our growth with Christ. And as we grow we become less and less of ourselves don't we? The more "self" we lose the better off we are. And in a world where "self" is the focus it's loss makes little sense.

At first glance though my first thought was legalism which centers on "self". :

 

[Jay T]

Conversion process?
Do you mean sanctification? If so then yes, I'd agree with the OP. I took "salvation" to have been refering to the actual event, at the moment. And knowing what sin really is as a prerequisite to "being saved", the intitial event thereof.
But I see now where you're coming from.
There is much to the subject Jay T. And what a wonderful well of thought you've opened here. It's our growth with Christ. And as we grow we become less and less of ourselves don't we? The more "self" we lose the better off we are. And in a world where "self" is the focus it's loss makes little sense.

At first glance though my first thought was legalism which centers on "self". :

Our sinful nature is our greatest enemy.

Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people [unto him] with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

 

[John the Baptist]

...

Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Romans 2:15 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

do by nature the things contained in the law

So here we have Gentiles who have their own laws yet the transgression thereof is their sin.

__
Hi, I suggest that you reread these verses! :wink:

"Which shew the work of the [LAW WRITTEN IN THEIR HEARTS].." That means what?? Check Genesis 6:3 "STRIVING" of the Holy Spirit. Compare 2 Corinthians 3:3 & Hebrews 10:15-16 for what is required for ALL to be saved! John 3:3 & Acts 5:32 (and the Eternal Covenant of Hebrews 13:20!)

Just one more thought! What more can any of mankind do, than to do the best that their conscience convicts of?? Romans 8:14 Be it through nature, or through the Word of our Christ as we know Him?

None are beyond knowledge! See Hosea 4:6 for what we are required to daily accept! Also see Christ's Words of Luke 12:47-48 of both the least & the most vile offenders!

--John

 

[Rick W]

John,
There's been many topics discussed at length on the doing of the law. If Christ in me works His law then indeed I may be seen as doing the law but it's not me doing it for by nature I am against all that is good. The Pharisees did the law to the fullest but they had missed the entire point. They read in the law, zeroed in on the scripture that said "do and do not". If I too read scripture with the same lens then I do the same as they.
Yes, there's a lot of scripture in both the old and new testaments that says to obey this and obey that, do this and do that, yet somehow they had erred in doing it.
Why do you suppose Christ chastened the Pharasees for doing so yet it's quite obvious to most that's what the scripture was saying to do? And that's exactly what they were doing. To the letter, the letter of the law.
Where did the Pharasees err?

 

[John the Baptist]

Rather than to answer two postings, :wink: I will just say that the carnal mind & carnal body both agree with each other.

Then when the Born Again change comes to any persons mind, that mind is to control the death decreed body. Got that? :fadein: And this is a maturing process following that change.

So, these Gentile ones were recreated by the only way that they had knowledge of! God in nature. Yet, they still were required to yield the 'total will' to the only God that they knew of.

And about all of the Eternal Covenant postings? I agree with you, that surely we that are living in this day of increased light (Hosea 4:6) will have no argument to make if one is lost.

---John

 

[Rick W]

Rather than to answer two postings, :wink:

Ok, answer one then :wink:

 

[John the Baptist]

John,
There's been many topics discussed at length on the doing of the law. If Christ in me works His law then indeed I may be seen as doing the law but it's not me doing it for by nature I am against all that is good. The Pharisees did the law to the fullest but they had missed the entire point. They read in the law, zeroed in on the scripture that said "do and do not". If I too read scripture with the same lens then I do the same as they.
Yes, there's a lot of scripture in both the old and new testaments that says to obey this and obey that, do this and do that, yet somehow they had erred in doing it.
Why do you suppose Christ chastened the Pharasees for doing so yet it's quite obvious to most that's what the scripture was saying to do? And that's exactly what they were doing. To the letter, the letter of the law.
Where did the Pharasees err?

*********

Christ continually exposed the profession of obedience without the actual works of Obedience! (for all of mankind!) See Matthew 23:3 & Matthew 7:21-27 & Romans 2:13.

In Isaiah 42:21 Christ tell why He came. To MAGNIFY His eternal Covenant and make it Honorable! You remember the hate & lust verses? Kill & adultery came from where? The James 2:8-12 ten Commandments.

Anyway, back to your question in the end of your 'post'. It takes both Christ & His perfect Doctrines to be [IN] Christ! Romans 8:1 Doctrines alone will not do it, professed true doctrines not being lived will not do it, nor will any have Christ alone without His True doctrines and be 'In' Christ! Matthew 28:20 - Acts 5:32.

Bottom line: "If ye love me. keep My Commandments". (and this only comes from being Born Again!) And the Isaiah 5:3 verse in the K.J. (which I mostly use) tells of the twofold history repeat. Yet, this is not the Revelation 17:5 : ones seen in Revelation 3:9!

Hope this helps?

---John

 

[Rick W]

And the Pharisees saw the law as something concerning them, that which they must do. But the law is more than something one must do. It reaches out to others in that the focus of the law is how we are to treat others. The Pharisees "did" the law to gain honor and perceived righteousness from those around them. Their interpretation of the law was self-centered without concern on anyone else but themselves.
Looking at the 10 commandments we see focus on God and other people. Jesus summed it up quite nicely...

Mark 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Mark 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Mark 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Now if we are true servants of Christ then we do the commandments of Christ. Being that we are servants we do our duty as servants commanded by our Master. And if as servants then how can we ask reward for what we are to do in the first place?

This is where the Pharisees went astray. They expected to be rewarded for something they were obligated to do anyway. And to how they treated others well, they lacked in that regard as well.

 

[John the Baptist]

And the Pharisees saw the law as something concerning them, that which they must do. But the law is more than something one must do. It reaches out to others in that the focus of the law is how we are to treat others. The Pharisees "did" the law to gain honor and perceived righteousness from those around them. Their interpretation of the law was self-centered without concern on anyone else but themselves.
Looking at the 10 commandments we see focus on God and other people. Jesus summed it up quite nicely...

Mark 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Mark 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Mark 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Now if we are true servants of Christ then we do the commandments of Christ. Being that we are servants we do our duty as servants commanded by our Master. And if as servants then how can we ask reward for what we are to do in the first place?

This is where the Pharisees went astray. They expected to be rewarded for something they were obligated to do anyway. And to how they treated others well, they lacked in that regard as well.

**
Hi, you are right, this is the way that is is. There are two tables of the Covenant. Christ tells the attorney (lawyer :wink: ) of Matthew 22:35-40 the division. Try the first four & then these last six as seen in Romans 13:1-9.

All were to be taught the Covenant of God. (seed sown) Our children on. They keep us being good folks when done as God required. But the end result is not to just stay that way, as was Nic in John 3. Christ REQUIRES that we must surrender the total self to Him for conversion to take place. The Covenant alone cannot do the trick! The saved of the O.T. were all serving God out of Love in the final Mature Born Again stage of growth. Notice David before Psalms, & then after his folly! Peter the same way, and Saul to Paul. Even the brothers of Joseph in the end of their mature life, of selling Joseph to be a slave.

So after one is Born Again (full surrender) as in Hebrews 6:1-5 's positives only, it is then and then only that they Truely Love Christ. And as you say (I think?) Truely Loving Christ is then the Motive. Yet, this love can even from then on become stagnant or "Lukewarm' and if so, we see the persons (as in whole fold!) Spewed out as sickening to Christ. Revelation 3:16-17. And these ones are the last Virgin Fold of Matthew 25:1-12. (compare who will be the most accountable in Luke 12:47-48)

Good understanding as I see it, thanks!

---John

PS: And a reward? God says that He will reward the saints with other than eternal life also. But who cares, huh? :fadein: (Just serving Him & Loving Him is reward enough!) But, we do not ask for any reward, He just states a fact that we will be rewarded! :wink:
OH" and the spell/check still is not working! :