Can you be saved and reject the Trinity?

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

Since there has been a great deal of discussion in the Theology part of the Christian forums I thought I would ask this question:

Can you be saved and reject the Trinity?

I believe that if you reject the Trinity then you are indeed not saved, and cannot be saved. One is saved by their faith in Jesus Christ, right?
Jesus Christ was the Messiah?
Jesus was the “word became flesh,†right?

Well if you don’t believe any of the above then how can you say you believe in Jesus Christ?

 

[Blazin Bones]

No. If you except the Son's grace you must except the spirits guidence and the Fathers gift of the son.

 

[evanman]

1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Can antichrist be saved?

 

[Blazin Bones]

No, but follow the context of what I'm about to say.

Lucifer had the choice to stay with the father except he wanted power.
The AntiChrist will choose to hate God.

 

[evanman]

No, but follow the context of what I'm about to say.

Lucifer had the choice to stay with the father except he wanted power.
The AntiChrist will choose to hate God.

Sorry, what has this to do with the subject of the trinity?

 

[Free]

I chose yes, but this is really an issue I struggle with. Do I think one must believe in the deity of Christ to be saved? Yes. In the Bible, salvation is dependent on belief in Christ alone. If we must believe in the Trinity, then does that mean we must also comprehend the Trinity in order to be saved?

One is saved by their faith in Jesus Christ, right?
Jesus Christ was the Messiah?
Jesus was the “word became flesh,†right?

Well if you don’t believe any of the above then how can you say you believe in Jesus Christ?

Those have nothing to do with the Trinity, only the deity of Christ.

 

[Eve777]

One is saved by their faith in Jesus Christ, right?
Jesus Christ was the Messiah?
Jesus was the “word became flesh,†right?

I beleive all three of these things but I do not beleive in the Trinity. I believe in ONE God. Not three persons as one God. I beleive that Jesus is God in the flesh and he is divine. He died for my sins and the only way to Heaven is through Jesus. Jesus was God, in flesh walking around on Earth in an earthly vessel. I don't believe the Holy Ghost is a seperate enitity. He is the Spirit of God. Jesus is God. The Only God we will ever see.

"I will not leave you comfortless, I will come to you".....this is Jesus speaking of the Holy Ghost, which we receive because he returns to the Right hand of God...which is the Power of God.....

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

One is saved by their faith in Jesus Christ, right?
Jesus Christ was the Messiah?
Jesus was the “word became flesh,†right?

Well if you don’t believe any of the above then how can you say you believe in Jesus Christ?

Those have nothing to do with the Trinity, only the deity of Christ.

Good point, I will expand later on what things I think you must believe in order really accept Jesus Christ.

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

One is saved by their faith in Jesus Christ, right?
Jesus Christ was the Messiah?
Jesus was the “word became flesh,†right?

I beleive all three of these things but I do not beleive in the Trinity. I believe in ONE God. Not three persons as one God. I beleive that Jesus is God in the flesh and he is divine. He died for my sins and the only way to Heaven is through Jesus. Jesus was God, in flesh walking around on Earth in an earthly vessel. I don't believe the Holy Ghost is a seperate enitity. He is the Spirit of God. Jesus is God. The Only God we will ever see.

"I will not leave you comfortless, I will come to you".....this is Jesus speaking of the Holy Ghost, which we receive because he returns to the Right hand of God...which is the Power of God.....

Ok I am confused, based on what you said it sounds like you accept the Trinity. Please explain to me how what you said is different then the doctrine of the Trinity.

 

[evanman]

If there is no trinity, then there is no Father, Son and Holy Spirit!

The fact that the Godhead is revealed as being Father, Son and Holy Spirit shows that there are three that make up the God head.

ONE Unique God made up of three who co-exist as one God.

Just as every element can exist as three--Solid, Liquid and Gas, so God,who is eternal, can be three and one at the same time!

You deny that there are three- yet the scriptures state that:

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

THREE that bare record in heaven--NOT one--Three, and these three ARE ONE!

There IS the Father and there IS the Son, denigh these two and you are Antichrist!

 

[JM]

If you can be saved and deny the Trinity, which part of the Trinity do you have to believe in? Does one part of the Trinity save and another not?

I say, you deny any part of the Trinity you deny God...you're not saved.

jason

 

[Eve777]

There IS the Father and there IS the Son, Deni these two and you are Antichrist!

I don't deny the Father or the Son. I simply believe as the Bible says that Jesus was God, manifested in the flesh. Not a separate person or manifestation.

God with us. Walking around in the flesh. It was the Flesh that enabled God to bridge the Gulf between God and man. Jesus was what Mary named him yet even Mary knew he was God. It said she pondered these things in her heart. She didn't fully understand it all but she knew that the seed she carried was holy. She was told his name was "Emanuel" meaning God with us. That didn't mean she had to name him Emanuel, it was just a way of explaining to her, who the Holy Seed was that she carried.

Had he not been Emanuel, he could not have been Jesus, for none but God can save a sinner: and therefore he is called Emanuel, which signifies, "God with us." Hence, therefore, he is God.

"And they shall call his name Emanuel, which, being interpreted, is God with us." –Matt. i. 23.

Not some seperate person or enitity but God himself. The everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace, the Holy One of Israel........the man Jesus who walked the Earth would die on that cross. He had to be all man while at the same time, he was still God. When the earthly man died on that cross, God for just a moment removed his spirit. It was not God who died, for spirit cannot die, it was the earthly man, the Son he had created that died. Do I deny the Son? Of course not. I worship him for he is God almighty. I know who the Son was. He who has the Son has the Father also. I also have the spirit of God. Without his spirit, HIS SPIRIT...you are none of his.

As Jesus says in Revealations:
"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

Eve777,

Is Jesus the same person as the Father?

When Jesus prayed, whom did he pray to?

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

Will anyone answer my questions to Eve777?

The questions:
Jesus the same person as the Father?

When Jesus prayed, whom did he pray to?

 

[JM]

Jesus is God, His humanity prayed.

Consider an old creed:

Whoever wills to be in a state of salvation, before all things it is necessary that he hold the universal faith, which except everyone shall have kept whole and undefiled without doubt he will perish eternally. Now the catholic faith is that we worship One God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the Persons nor dividing the substance.

For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Spirit. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is One, the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit; the Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated; the father infinite, the Son infinite, and the Holy Spirit infinite; the Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet not three eternals but one eternal, as also not three infinites, nor three uncreated, but one uncreated, and one infinite.

So, likewise, the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty; and yet not three almighties but one almighty. So the Father is God, the Son God, and the Holy Spirit God; and yet not three Gods but one God. So the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord; and yet not three Lords but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by Christian truth to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be both God and Lord; so are we forbidden by the universal religion to say, there be three Gods or three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone, nod made nor created but begotten. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and the Son, not made nor created nor begotten but proceeding. So there is one Father not three Fathers, one Son not three Sons, and Holy Spirit not three Holy Spirits. And in this Trinity there is nothing before or after, nothing greater or less, but the whole three Persons are coeternal together and coequal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the trinity in Unity and the Unity in Trinity is to be worshipped.

He therefore who wills to be in a state of salvation, let him think thus of the Trinity. But it is necessary to eternal salvation that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. The right faith therefore is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man. He is God of the substance of the Father begotten before the worlds, and He is man of the substance of His mother born in the world; perfect God, perfect man subsisting of a reasoning soul and human flesh; equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, inferior to the Father as touching His Manhood. Who although He be God and Man yet He is not two but one Christ; one however not by conversion of the GodHead in the flesh, but by taking of the Manhood in God; one altogether not by confusion of substance but by unity of Person.

For as the reasoning soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again from the dead, ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, from whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life eternal, and they who indeed have done evil into eternal fire. This is the universal faith, which except a man shall have believed faithfully and firmly he cannot be in a state of salvation.

 

[evanman]

Jesus humanity prayed?

So what you are saying is that Jesus was not wholly God, that there was part of Jesus that was not God?

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

Jesus humanity prayed?

So what you are saying is that Jesus was not wholly God, that there was part of Jesus that was not God?

I do not think Jason is saying that Jesus was not wholly God. Remember the concept called the Hypostatic Union, Jesus has two natures…. fully divine and fully man.

When Jesus prayed he was praying to God the father.

 

[Free]

NPX,

Oneness theology teaches what I call the "schizophrenic Jesus" - he was the Father in human flesh, so when he prayed, he prayed to the Father who was in him. Throughout the gospels then, one has to be able to differentiate between who is speaking everytime Jesus says something; it's either the Father speaking or Jesus' humanity speaking.

Since God is Spirit and is omnipresent, the Father can be in heaven while at the same time manifest in the flesh of Jesus. You end up with Jesus being the name of God, who is the Father, and manifests as the Son and the Holy Spirit. All are different modes of Jesus.

But, there is also a problem with what Jason stated, as evanman pointed out. To say that "Jesus is God, His humanity prayed," is to cause a confusion between the deity and humanity of Christ. This is very similar to the Oneness schizophrenic Jesus.

This is why I disagree with Jesus being "fully God and fully man." Not only is it contradictory (if one is fully one thing, how can they also be fully another?) but then one begins to never know just who is speaking when Jesus speaks. I prefer what a prof mentioned, that Jesus was "the Spirit filled God-man". This is the mystery of the Incarnation. As my prof also stated, once you split the mystery, you are close to heresy.

And this is what happens. If one says that Jesus is fully God and fully man, the mystery is split and one has a hard time trying to figure out if Jesus as God is speaking or Jesus as man is speaking. Not that that is heresy, but it causes confusion.

However, if we simply say that Jesus was the Spirit filled God-man, we can always say that he spoke as the God-man; both/and, not either/or. I suppose this is close to Monophositism, with the excpetion that the two natures became one infused nature.

I am not going to be dogmatic and say that that is the way it is. It's just that to me this makes a lot more sense of what I see in the gospels.

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

This is why I disagree with Jesus being "fully God and fully man." Not only is it contradictory (if one is fully one thing, how can they also be fully another?) but then one begins to never know just who is speaking when Jesus speaks. I prefer what a prof mentioned, that Jesus was "the Spirit filled God-man". This is the mystery of the Incarnation. As my prof also stated, once you split the mystery, you are close to heresy.

And this is what happens. If one says that Jesus is fully God and fully man, the mystery is split and one has a hard time trying to figure out if Jesus as God is speaking or Jesus as man is speaking. Not that that is heresy, but it causes confusion.

However, if we simply say that Jesus was the Spirit filled God-man, we can always say that he spoke as the God-man; both/and, not either/or. I suppose this is close to Monophositism, with the excpetion that the two natures became one infused nature.

That is interesting. I still believe in Hypostatic Union, Jesus having two natures…fully divine[fixed...I had human before] and fully man. It does not confuse me and it makes perfect sense to me, also consider that just because it does not make sense to humans does not mean it is not so.

Another thing to consider when looking at the concept known as the Hypostatic Union is the understanding of the Trinity. Remember this question:

Is Jesus the same person as the Father?

Well based on the understanding of the Trinity the answer to that question is no. Consider carm.org’s answer to the question:

No, Jesus is not the same person as the Father. In the doctrine of the Trinity there are three persons in the Godhead: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We use the term "person" to describe each of the three because each displays attributes of personhood. Each has a will, speaks, loves, is self aware, and is aware of others. Yet, the Bible teaches that there is only one God (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8; 45:5,14,18,21,22). Therefore, the person of the Son is not the same person as the Father. They speak to each other and have their own wills.

Matt. 3:17, "and behold, a voice out of the heavens, saying, 'This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.'â€Â

Luke 22:42, "Father, if Thou art willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Thine be done.â€Â

There are, however, Oneness Pentecostal groups who claim that there is only one person in the Godhead: Jesus. They erringly state that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all the same person, only different in manifestation. This is an error.
The correct doctrine is that there is only one God who is three persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Each is not the same person as the other. Yet, there are not three gods, only one.

You can find the above at the following link:
http://www.carm.org/questions/Jesus_Father.htm

By the way “schizophrenic Jesus†makes no sense. Based on your descriptions it would make more sense to say “dissociative identity disorder Jesus†or “multipersonality Jesus†considering schizophrenia applies to persons who see things that are not there or hear voices in their head. Dissociative identity disorder (DID), formally know as multipersonality disorder, applies to persons who has two or more personalities (in your explanation that would be the Father personality and the Human personality…both of which being in the same Jesus…of course I reject that notion as do you.)

 

[Free]

NPX,

I still believe in Hypostatic Union, Jesus having two natures…fully human and fully man.

Other than being contradictory, the other problem I have with that is found in Phil 2:

"6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men."

If Jesus "emptied himself," how could he be "fully" God?

It does not confuse me and it makes perfect sense to me, also consider that just because it does not make sense to humans does not mean it is not so.

I am not confused by the Hypostatic Union and it does make sense, I just find it is lacking as a explanation of the nature of Christ.

By the way “schizophrenic Jesus†makes no sense. Based on your descriptions it would make more sense to say “dissociative identity disorder Jesus†or “multipersonality Jesus†considering schizophrenia applies to persons who see things that are not there or hear voices in their head.

Heh. Spoken like a true psych major; of course, you are correct.

(in your explanation that would be the Father personality and the Human personality…both of which being in the same Jesus…of course I reject that notion as do you.)

But if Jesus is fully God and fully man, then you have the same dilemma, only with the Son. The temptation is to say that either the Son was speaking or his humanity was speaking, and once again Jesus has dissociative identity disorder.