[_ Old Earth _] Can you survive 3 days inside a fish (ala Jonah)?

[Slevin]

Those stories certainly are interesting, and amazing if true. I noticed none of them said that the man survived any longer than a day, if that, let alone 3 days. And that they were in severe shock.

I also noticed that they seemed to be purely anecdotal.

 

[Orion]

Even IF "God did it", . . . . why? Jonah wasn't the best person for the job, period. He didn't want to go, fled, got angry when they repented. What if this event happened today. What if "God told someone to take the message of the gospel directly to the Taliban" and they realized it was a VERY dangerous call, but also didn't really WANT them to repent and turn to God, so he decided to not heed this call and walked away from it. What do you suppose would happen? . . . . . . . . . Obviously, this man would live his life having never tried to reach the Taliban. No fish would swallow him, nothing would happen to MAKE him go. God doesn't MAKE people do something against their will. He can find someone who is willing and full of joy IF/when the group repents.

I just see the Jonah story to be nothing but one of the parable stories of the Bible. Nothing wrong with parables as Jesus spoke a lot of them.

 

[unred typo]

quote by Orion:
Even IF "God did it", . . . . why? Jonah wasn't the best person for the job, period. He didn't want to go, fled, got angry when they repented. What if this event happened today. What if "God told someone to take the message of the gospel directly to the Taliban" and they realized it was a VERY dangerous call, but also didn't really WANT them to repent and turn to God, so he decided to not heed this call and walked away from it. What do you suppose would happen? . . . . . . . . . Obviously, this man would live his life having never tried to reach the Taliban. No fish would swallow him, nothing would happen to MAKE him go. God doesn't MAKE people do something against their will. He can find someone who is willing and full of joy IF/when the group repents.

I just see the Jonah story to be nothing but one of the parable stories of the Bible. Nothing wrong with parables as Jesus spoke a lot of them.

If I had to guess, and I don’t, :wink: but why not…. I would say that probably God had an issue with Jonah as much as with the Ninevites. Judging from the rest of the story, it must have been about revenge/forgiveness and Jonah‘s bad attitude. Sure God could have gotten someone else to do the job cheerfully, but it’s his call. He killed two birds with one stone, not to mention the witness to the terrified sailors who will never forget the way the disobedient prophet, Jonah ’died’ and the immediate calming of the storm. I’m sure that put the fear of God into them.

God didn’t MAKE Jonah go to Ninevah. He made him miserable, and that made him go. He went because he knew if he didn’t, the next time he got swallowed, he wouldn’t be coming out. This is actually a very good instance of man’s free will and God’s way of changing our will without violating our autonomy. He doesn’t just put a new will in you, he convinces you with painful, or fearful circumstances, or even good things that make you appreciative.

Do you personally know someone who God called to go to the Taliban? If so, I wish they would man up. It might save us untold suffering. I doubt that God would call anyone to such a futile assignment. They seem to be quite proud and would never back down to lose face at this point. When you feel you have a mandate from God, how do you say ’oops’ after you have executed thousands of innocent people?

 

[Guest]

If I had to guess, and I don’t, :wink: but why not…. I would say that probably God had an issue with Jonah as much as with the Ninevites. Judging from the rest of the story, it must have been about revenge/forgiveness and Jonah‘s bad attitude. Sure God could have gotten someone else to do the job cheerfully, but it’s his call. He killed two birds with one stone, not to mention the witness to the terrified sailors who will never forget the way the disobedient prophet, Jonah ’died’ and the immediate calming of the storm. I’m sure that put the fear of God into them.

God didn’t MAKE Jonah go to Ninevah. He made him miserable, and that made him go. He went because he knew if he didn’t, the next time he got swallowed, he wouldn’t be coming out. This is actually a very good instance of man’s free will and God’s way of changing our will without violating our autonomy. He doesn’t just put a new will in you, he convinces you with painful, or fearful circumstances, or even good things that make you appreciative.

That's not free will, that's dictatorship, communism, tyranny, racketeering, roughing up, etc. It's like hurting people for not doing what you want them to do, forcing them to exercise your will. That's definitely NOT free will! It's like telling a person: if you don't do this I will beat you and I will make your life miserable.

 

[unred typo]

quote by by doGoN:
That's not free will, that's dictatorship, communism, tyranny, racketeering, roughing up, etc. It's like hurting people for not doing what you want them to do, forcing them to exercise your will. That's definitely NOT free will! It's like telling a person: if you don't do this I will beat you and I will make your life miserable.

No, that’s discipline from a loving heavenly Father God who wants to bring you into a correct attitude for your own good. God is all about teaching us to love one another. If you don’t learn that, you don’t get eternal life. There will be no rebellion and evil and darkness and hatred and bitterness in heaven. Only good. Only love. Only light. Only people who love God and one another.

It’s free will because Jonah could still hold onto his bitterness, even after he repented and went to Ninevah. In fact, we don’t know at the end of the story if Jonah ever did learn to forgive the Ninevites. The choice was his to make, God did not force him to love them.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

...Jonah wasn't the best person for the job...

Maybe he was the best person for the job. Often the less qualified a person is, the more people realize that God is in it.
1Cr 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

Or maybe he was the only one that was not already on assignment at the time.
Just a bit of a glimpse of a previous assignment
2Ki 14:25 He restored the coast of Israel from the entering of Hamath unto the sea of the plain, according to the word of the LORD God of Israel, which he spake by the hand of his servant Jonah, the son of Amittai, the prophet, which [was] of Gathhepher.

God says that He answers prayer. and we see here that somebody must have been praying, seeing as how we have not if we ask not.
Jon 1:2 Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me.
If no one had asked God to do something about the wickedness of Nineveh, Jonah could have probably gone on about his own business.

It could also be that God was teaching Jonah as many lessons as He was teaching Nineveh. He has certainly used Jonah to teach a multitude of people a multitude of lessons since that time.

 

[Guest]

No, that’s discipline from a loving heavenly Father God who wants to bring you into a correct attitude for your own good. God is all about teaching us to love one another. If you don’t learn that, you don’t get eternal life. There will be no rebellion and evil and darkness and hatred and bitterness in heaven. Only good. Only love. Only light. Only people who love God and one another.

Yes, but the worst way to teach a dog not to bite your hand is to hit it with the same hand you don't want it to bite!

God is the all powerful sitting up there, thinking, "well I can't figure out a better way to show Jonah that he should follow my advice, so I'll just have him eaten by the fish!" "Why that's a great idea" said an Angel, "have him eaten by a big fish!" The mere fact that Jonah is hearing God's word should have been plenty motivation for him. Just imagine, Jonah hears none else but God himself, telling him to fulfill God's will. This alone would have anybody shaking in their pants, and jumping high and mighty to do what God says!

This is God we're talking about, not some clown who plays pranks on kids when he's mad at them.

It’s free will because Jonah could still hold onto his bitterness, even after he repented and went to Ninevah. In fact, we don’t know at the end of the story if Jonah ever did learn to forgive the Ninevites. The choice was his to make, God did not force him to love them.

Any time you hurt somebody to have your way it's called abuse! It's not uncommon for abused people to be bitter and not to be able to love anymore. Just look at battered women, they're scared of loving another man because their previous husband beat the day light out of them in order to get his way- he called it tough love!

I don't think this is the example God would want people to have. How are we supposed to take this now, if you can't get people to do what you want them, then just beat them until they do?

Anyway, why is this posted in Christianity and Science? I can't see the point anymore...

 

[unred typo]

quote by by doGoN:
Yes, but the worst way to teach a dog not to bite your hand is to hit it with the same hand you don't want it to bite!

God is the all powerful sitting up there, thinking, "well I can't figure out a better way to show Jonah that he should follow my advice, so I'll just have him eaten by the fish!" "Why that's a great idea" said an Angel, "have him eaten by a big fish!" The mere fact that Jonah is hearing God's word should have been plenty motivation for him. Just imagine, Jonah hears none else but God himself, telling him to fulfill God's will. This alone would have anybody shaking in their pants, and jumping high and mighty to do what God says!

This is God we're talking about, not some clown who plays pranks on kids when he's mad at them.

Yes, this is God we’re talking about. The fish he prepared that swallowed Jonah was not a prank. It was a punishment and a lesson.

You overlook the purpose of this life on earth. This is a place to learn to hate sin and to choose to obey God. The ultimate goal is to bring every person to a knowledge that God must be obeyed because God knows best. The suffering that was unleashed when Adam and Eve chose to disobey was immeasurable. There was no pain in the garden. Pain, suffering and death are the consequences of sin. All of God’s ways bring love, light and peace. It is the violation of his will that causes suffering and death and his judgment on us. All have sinned and all will die.

quote by by doGoN:
Any time you hurt somebody to have your way it's called abuse! It's not uncommon for abused people to be bitter and not to be able to love anymore. Just look at battered women, they're scared of loving another man because their previous husband beat the day light out of them in order to get his way- he called it tough love!

I don't think this is the example God would want people to have. How are we supposed to take this now, if you can't get people to do what you want them, then just beat them until they do?

The fact is that you don’t seem to want to accept is that it is God’s place to decide when and how every person dies. Not us. We don’t get to judge these things except in very specific cases that God allows. The people of Ninevah were slated to die, because their crimes against other people had almost exceeded the sin limit that God would tolerate before destroying them. This was their final warning. Jonah lacked compassion for the evil Ninevites and he wanted them to be killed, not to repent and be saved. I think God did a fine job of convincing them he was serious when a giant fish vomited the prophet up on their beach, probably all bleached and looking like death in a seaweed overcoat.

Now here you are saying that it didn’t work? That the beating Jonah took was not worth the outcome? That somehow God was teaching abuse? Sure, if someone refuses to do your will, prepare a giant fish to swallow them, bring them to the point of death, and then back to life and have them vomited up, alive and ready to deliver your message. Why don’t you try that? Except you can’t do any of that since you’re not God, and some of the details would exceed your powers. One more word about that: Sheech.

quote by by doGoN:
Anyway, why is this posted in Christianity and Science? I can't see the point anymore…

Now there’s something I can agree with. We can take it to Apologetics if you want. Scientifically, it’s possible but not probable. There would have to be a miracle involved, imho. The idea that we can dismiss the miracle and prove it scientifically is missing the mark. Even if a man could be swallowed, survive 3 days and be vomited out, what are the odds that he would land on the shores of his God’s intended destination, without God‘s intervention? Makes no sense to even argue the point. But the fish tales were interesting. :-D

 

[Guest]

quote by by doGoN:
Anyway, why is this posted in Christianity and Science? I can't see the point anymore…

Now there’s something I can agree with. We can take it to Apologetics if you want. Scientifically, it’s possible but not probable. There would have to be a miracle involved, imho. The idea that we can dismiss the miracle and prove it scientifically is missing the mark. Even if a man could be swallowed, survive 3 days and be vomited out, what are the odds that he would land on the shores of his God’s intended destination, without God‘s intervention? Makes no sense to even argue the point. But the fish tales were interesting. :-D

Not that I care either way... but you do have a point: proving/disproving that God performed a miracle by having Jonah swallowed by a big fish and then spit out is probably not within the realms of science. Science could explain why one would be able to survive inside a fish for a certain period of time, but it is unlikely to provide any substantial evidence in favor or against this Biblical story.

 

[Orion]

The original question was aimed at whether or not a human can survive in a fish/whale, or whatever, that swims in the water and breaths by getting oxygen out of the water itself, . . . whether it is possible for a man to remain alive in that environment, that's not even taking into account the fish's/whale's stomach acids.

Have there been any credible stories given about a man surviving being swallowed by a fish/whale, or are they all "Tall tales"?

 

[Guest]

The original question was aimed at whether or not a human can survive in a fish/whale, or whatever, that swims in the water and breaths by getting oxygen out of the water itself, . . . whether it is possible for a man to remain alive in that environment, that's not even taking into account the fish's/whale's stomach acids.

Have there been any credible stories given about a man surviving being swallowed by a fish/whale, or are they all "Tall tales"?

I say they're tall tales... the odds are highly against this kind of event happening and the person surviving. Breathable air is one of the biggest issues in this situation, the lack of of breathable air will render it impossible to survive for more than 3 minutes.

 

[unred typo]

I say they're tall tales... the odds are highly against this kind of event happening and the person surviving. Breathable air is one of the biggest issues in this situation, the lack of of breathable air will render it impossible to survive for more than 3 minutes.

If God prepared a fish as it says, it could have been a furnished apartment with gills. I don’t really get the idea of the question I guess. Either you have faith in God and believe the Bible or you don’t.
This is the story that fascinated me the most:

How big do these whales get? In 1933 a sulfur bottom whale was caught off the coast of cape cod it was 100 ft long and had a mouth over 10 foot wide. A man who was unfortunate enough to be swallowed could take refuge in any one of the whales stomach chambers, or the large cranial cavities (extensions of the nasal sinus) which measure 7 feet high, 7ft wide and 14 ft long. More than big enough for a man to hide safely inside.

It seems that a man could survive for days inside the cranial cavities of this sulfur whale, without being digested by stomach acids. It doesn't help the Bible story but it may boster the weak faith of some people, I suppose.It may be important to some people who only have enough faith to believe God could create a fish but is not clever enough to tell the fish what to do or control the situations described in the book of Jonah. I don’t have that problem. I just look at the world of nature and say ‘amen’.

 

[Guest]

I say they're tall tales... the odds are highly against this kind of event happening and the person surviving. Breathable air is one of the biggest issues in this situation, the lack of of breathable air will render it impossible to survive for more than 3 minutes.

If God prepared a fish as it says, it could have been a furnished apartment with gills. I don’t really get the idea of the question I guess. Either you have faith in God and believe the Bible or you don’t.
This is the story that fascinated me the most:

How big do these whales get? In 1933 a sulfur bottom whale was caught off the coast of cape cod it was 100 ft long and had a mouth over 10 foot wide. A man who was unfortunate enough to be swallowed could take refuge in any one of the whales stomach chambers, or the large cranial cavities (extensions of the nasal sinus) which measure 7 feet high, 7ft wide and 14 ft long. More than big enough for a man to hide safely inside.

It seems that a man could survive for days inside the cranial cavities of this sulfur whale, without being digested by stomach acids. It doesn't help the Bible story but it may boster the weak faith of some people, I suppose.It may be important to some people who only have enough faith to believe God could create a fish but is not clever enough to tell the fish what to do or control the situations described in the book of Jonah. I don’t have that problem. I just look at the world of nature and say ‘amen’.

The question was if the idea of surviving inside the body of a fish is possible and if the stories which we hear about, like the one you just mentioned, are tall tales or reality. It has nothing to do with Faith, or if God performed a miracle at this point. I also want to point out that the story you just mentioned about the 1933 sulfur bottom whale is not actually one of a person actually being swallowed. That story only describes the fact that a person could survive inside a whale:
1. The possibility of hiding inside the whale's stomach is out of question, since the stomach has no breathable air inside it and it contains a lot of digestive fluids. Due to the lack of breathable air, a person could not survive for more than 3 minutes (the average time a person can live without breathable air), even if the person survives for more than 3 minutes then they will have to face the digestive fluids and those would be deadly by all means. A whale probably couldn't swallow a person without killing the them. The way a blue whale swallows it's food is by squeezing out all of the water from it's mouth and trapping all of the food in it's "teeth", then it uses it's tongue to scrape the inside of his mouth and swallow the food.
2. The possibility of actually reaching a cranial cavity is very unlikely... I haven't found any detailed anatomical images which could be used to study the "path" to the cranial cavity, but it just seems unlikely that a person could get to the cavity and survive there.

 

[unred typo]

quote by doGoN:

The question was if the idea of surviving inside the body of a fish is possible and if the stories which we hear about, like the one you just mentioned, are tall tales or reality. It has nothing to do with Faith, or if God performed a miracle at this point. I also want to point out that the story you just mentioned about the 1933 sulfur bottom whale is not actually one of a person actually being swallowed. That story only describes the fact that a person could survive inside a whale:
1. The possibility of hiding inside the whale's stomach is out of question, since the stomach has no breathable air inside it and it contains a lot of digestive fluids. Due to the lack of breathable air, a person could not survive for more than 3 minutes (the average time a person can live without breathable air), even if the person survives for more than 3 minutes then they will have to face the digestive fluids and those would be deadly by all means. A whale probably couldn't swallow a person without killing the them. The way a blue whale swallows it's food is by squeezing out all of the water from it's mouth and trapping all of the food in it's "teeth", then it uses it's tongue to scrape the inside of his mouth and swallow the food.

2. The possibility of actually reaching a cranial cavity is very unlikely... I haven't found any detailed anatomical images which could be used to study the "path" to the cranial cavity, but it just seems unlikely that a person could get to the cavity and survive there.

Well, the question was, would it be possible, not did it ever happen. If you are really interested in the answer, you could read these again:

Can a whale swallow a man whole? Yes and no. There are two types of whalesâ€â€the Odontocetes and the Mysticetes.

The first is represented by the blue whale, the largest, which is 100 feet long and weighs 150 tons. It cannot swallow a man because from its upper jaw hangs a series of hundreds of thin plates acting as a strainer. Thus the whale eats only small sea creatures, e.g., crustaceans.

The second type, the Mysticetes, is represented by the sperm whale. Its teeth are not for chewing, only for securing prey. It eats anything that moves, and its food is swallowed whole, e.g. fish, sea turtles, seals, penguins, squid, etc.

In Sir Francis Fox's book, 63 Years of Engineering, the manager of a whaling station informs us that the sperm whale swallows lumps of food 8 feet in diameter, and in one of those whales they actually found the skeleton of a shark 16 feet in length.

In the Daily Mail of Dec. 14, 1928, Mr. G. H. Henn, a resident of Birmingham, England, gave the following testimony: "My own experience was in Birmingham about 25 years ago, when the carcass of a whale was displayed for a week on vacant land Navigation Street, outside New Street Station. I was one of 12 men who went into its mouth, passed through its throat, and moved about in what was equivalent to a fair-sized room. Its throat was large enough to serve as a door. Obviously it would be quite easy for a whale of this kind to swallow a man."

I would think that a man could survive several miserable days in a whale’s cranial cavity but eventually die of any number of causes without ever being discovered. If you do get swallowed and make it through to a nasal cavity, the future is still going to be uncertain so you better pray hard for a miracle. Just as there are no atheists in trenches, there aren't any in the sinus of a sperm or sulfur whale either, I bet. :-D

 

[Guest]

Can a whale swallow a man whole? Yes and no. There are two types of whalesâ€â€the Odontocetes and the Mysticetes.

The first is represented by the blue whale, the largest, which is 100 feet long and weighs 150 tons. It cannot swallow a man because from its upper jaw hangs a series of hundreds of thin plates acting as a strainer. Thus the whale eats only small sea creatures, e.g., crustaceans.

Your reference was regarding the cranial cavity and/or the stomach of the blue whale/sulfur-bottom whale and if a person could survive there... the answer to that was UNLIKELY!
Now you ask the question: "Can a whale swallow a man whole?" That is different than asking if a man can survive inside the whale... there are large enough whales that can swallow humans, beyond that it is unlikely that a person could survive this.

The second type, the Mysticetes, is represented by the sperm whale. Its teeth are not for chewing, only for securing prey. It eats anything that moves, and its food is swallowed whole, e.g. fish, sea turtles, seals, penguins, squid, etc.

In Sir Francis Fox's book, 63 Years of Engineering, the manager of a whaling station informs us that the sperm whale swallows lumps of food 8 feet in diameter, and in one of those whales they actually found the skeleton of a shark 16 feet in length.

[quote:9f151]In the Daily Mail of Dec. 14, 1928, Mr. G. H. Henn, a resident of Birmingham, England, gave the following testimony: "My own experience was in Birmingham about 25 years ago, when the carcass of a whale was displayed for a week on vacant land Navigation Street, outside New Street Station. I was one of 12 men who went into its mouth, passed through its throat, and moved about in what was equivalent to a fair-sized room. Its throat was large enough to serve as a door. Obviously it would be quite easy for a whale of this kind to swallow a man."

I would think that a man could survive several miserable days in a whale’s cranial cavity but eventually die of any number of causes without ever being discovered. [/quote:9f151]
If a person could actually get to the cranial cavity, then who knows. Since our above discussion yielded that the blue whale is an unlikely candidate to swallow a man, then we're left with the sperm whale. The sperm whale does not have access "hiding compartments" (i.e. cranial cavity) for its pray to hide in, the mouth serves one purpose only: feed the stomach. If you are unfortunate enough to end up in a sperm whale's mouth, then you will probably end up in its stomach. Surviving for more than 3 minutes is unlikely due to the lack of oxygen, if one is lucky enough to survive more than 3 minutes, then there are a slew of other things that will kill him/her.

If you do get swallowed and make it through to a nasal cavity, the future is still going to be uncertain so you better pray hard for a miracle. Just as there are no atheists in trenches, there aren't any in the sinus of a sperm or sulfur whale either, I bet. :-D

I say you start praying that you could get to the sinus of the sperm whale ... Anyway, it's strange but the people who survive freak accidents have rarely prayed to God, most of the time what comes to their mind is their family, friends, etc. It seems that there is about the same chance that an atheists and a theists could survive a freak accident, I would even argue that the most freakish of accidents that we know of were survived mostly by people who didn't pray to God . So there might be no atheists in trenches, but there doesn't seem to be a need for such .

 

[unred typo]

quote by doGon:
Your reference was regarding the cranial cavity and/or the stomach of the blue whale/sulfur-bottom whale and if a person could survive there... the answer to that was UNLIKELY!
Now you ask the question: "Can a whale swallow a man whole?" That is different than asking if a man can survive inside the whale... there are large enough whales that can swallow humans, beyond that it is unlikely that a person could survive this.

I didn’t ask that. It was just part of the quote I copied for you to read from the web page. We both agree that the blue whale is an unlikely candidate.

quote by doGon:
[quote:f7402]unred typo wrote:The second type, the Mysticetes, is represented by the sperm whale. Its teeth are not for chewing, only for securing prey. It eats anything that moves, and its food is swallowed whole, e.g. fish, sea turtles, seals, penguins, squid, etc.

In Sir Francis Fox's book, 63 Years of Engineering, the manager of a whaling station informs us that the sperm whale swallows lumps of food 8 feet in diameter, and in one of those whales they actually found the skeleton of a shark 16 feet in length.


In the Daily Mail of Dec. 14, 1928, Mr. G. H. Henn, a resident of Birmingham, England, gave the following testimony: "My own experience was in Birmingham about 25 years ago, when the carcass of a whale was displayed for a week on vacant land Navigation Street, outside New Street Station. I was one of 12 men who went into its mouth, passed through its throat, and moved about in what was equivalent to a fair-sized room. Its throat was large enough to serve as a door. Obviously it would be quite easy for a whale of this kind to swallow a man."


I would think that a man could survive several miserable days in a whale’s cranial cavity but eventually die of any number of causes without ever being discovered.

If a person could actually get to the cranial cavity, then who knows. Since our above discussion yielded that the blue whale is an unlikely candidate to swallow a man, then we're left with the sperm whale. The sperm whale does not have access "hiding compartments" (i.e. cranial cavity) for its pray to hide in, the mouth serves one purpose only: feed the stomach. If you are unfortunate enough to end up in a sperm whale's mouth, then you will probably end up in its stomach. Surviving for more than 3 minutes is unlikely due to the lack of oxygen, if one is lucky enough to survive more than 3 minutes, then there are a slew of other things that will kill him/her.[/quote:f7402]

Actually, the sulphur whale was the one with the large cranial cavities. Since a whale’s anatomy is designed for swallowing fish and seals, etc. the openings to the sinuses may be accessible by a man with hands and strength to push past any membranes protecting them from accidentally snuffing a fish into the whales nasal cavities. As you say, if you are unlucky enough to be swallowed by a whale, you are likely not lucky enough to survive, unless God has plans to teach you something in there, and not just to end your life as fish food.

quote by doGon:
unred typo wrote:If you do get swallowed and make it through to a nasal cavity, the future is still going to be uncertain so you better pray hard for a miracle. Just as there are no atheists in trenches, there aren't any in the sinus of a sperm or sulfur whale either, I bet.

I say you start praying that you could get to the sinus of the sperm whale ... Anyway, it's strange but the people who survive freak accidents have rarely prayed to God, most of the time what comes to their mind is their family, friends, etc. It seems that there is about the same chance that an atheists and a theists could survive a freak accident, I would even argue that the most freakish of accidents that we know of were survived mostly by people who didn't pray to God . So there might be no atheists in trenches, but there doesn't seem to be a need for such .

I would look at that from another way. Giving a person thoughts of family and friends is God’s way of encouraging them to not give up, to fight to survive and to give them something to live for. Possibly people who don’t survive can’t think beyond their own painful recovery and/or are unwilling to make the effort to push beyond their human limits, if they can even think at all. Who knows? They died.

In an emergency, there isn’t usually time for a nice conversation with God. A prayer can be as simple as a desperate ‘help!’ sent heavenward. After, it’s easy to claim you didn’t even pray at all. How soon we forget....

 

[VaultZero4Me]

I have two things against the "atheist in foxholes" statement (btw I know its TIC)

1. I do not think it's true that people call out for a deity in life or death situations. Though I have never been in war, I have had many dangerous situations come up (being a male teen driver and high tolerance for risk), and in those situations, I just remember acting to preserve life. Again, those were split second situations, so it is a weak comparison to living under constant threat of death. IE bombs exploding and small arms fire within my vicinity constantly.

2. It reduces God to filling a need of desperation. If the postulation is that all people call out for God during times of desperation, than that can build an argument against God. You could infer that the belief in God feeds some sort of psychological need in an individual. I think it makes the case for God look weaker.

 

[unred typo]

I have two things against the "atheist in foxholes" statement (btw I know its TIC)

1. I do not think it's true that people call out for a deity in life or death situations. Though I have never been in war, I have had many dangerous situations come up (being a male teen driver and high tolerance for risk), and in those situations, I just remember acting to preserve life. Again, those were split second situations, so it is a weak comparison to living under constant threat of death. IE bombs exploding and small arms fire within my vicinity constantly.

2. It reduces God to filling a need of desperation. If the postulation is that all people call out for God during times of desperation, than that can build an argument against God. You could infer that the belief in God feeds some sort of psychological need in an individual. I think it makes the case for God look weaker.

I know this is off topic, but I have had an experience in this fear of death praying, being in a vehicle in which the driver was driving irresponsibly. If I had been driving, I might have felt more in control and not afraid of even crashing. In the back seat, I closed my eyes and prayed ‘let’s make a deal,’ although I was quite sure that God didn’t exist. Before I got to the part where I dedicated the entire rest of my life to the Lord, a voice or a thought stopped me mid sentence, with a decidedly skeptical tone, “and what will you do, after the danger is over?†(I say 'voice' but there were no exactly 'audible' words even though I could hear the question distinctly and even the tone of it) At that point, I could not lie and admitted I would just shrug it off and go on with my godless existence. After a pregnant pause in our ‘conversation’, the car hit the soft shoulder and rolled, throwing my older brother sitting in the front passenger seat to his death. His seat could have been mine but he had insisted that he would sit there, even though he had always been the one who let others have their preference.

I hesitate to tell this experience because it is such a painful personal memory and it is just another one of those ‘can’t prove it’ ‘you expect us to believe that?’ stories. But I know ‘the voice’ was not my own and being a shallow, invincible, bull headed teen, it really didn’t change my life until years later, when the reality of it had eaten through my resistance and broken down all my defenses. So you can pooh poopa this off as just another fish story and I will understand, all too well.

 

[Guest]

I didn’t ask that. It was just part of the quote I copied for you to read from the web page. We both agree that the blue whale is an unlikely candidate.

I just thought it was poor quotation... anyway, I do agree that the blue whale is an unlikely to swallow a man.

Actually, the sulphur whale was the one with the large cranial cavities. Since a whale’s anatomy is designed for swallowing fish and seals, etc. the openings to the sinuses may be accessible by a man with hands and strength to push past any membranes protecting them from accidentally snuffing a fish into the whales nasal cavities. As you say, if you are unlucky enough to be swallowed by a whale, you are likely not lucky enough to survive, unless God has plans to teach you something in there, and not just to end your life as fish food.

Right, the blue whale was the one with the large cranial cavity, but we ruled it out as unlikely to swallow a person. In the above paragraph your statement implies that the sperm whale has cranial cavities which are large enough to contain a whole person as well... again, I don't have access to this information so I can't speculate. If you have access to details about the sperm whale's cranial cavities, then please let us see it, but if you don't have this information then don't speculate on it.

Even so, I say it is highly unlikely that a person could physically push his way into a "safe compartment" as I think that the mouth is designed not to have any accidental exit holes, it goes directly to the throat.

I would look at that from another way. Giving a person thoughts of family and friends is God’s way of encouraging them to not give up, to fight to survive and to give them something to live for. Possibly people who don’t survive can’t think beyond their own painful recovery and/or are unwilling to make the effort to push beyond their human limits, if they can even think at all. Who knows? They died.

That's pretty interesting, you think that some people can't "even think at all", I hardly believe that it is the case... I think every person is capable of thinking. As I said, the people who have survived "freak accidents" are all over the world, and many of them are not even Christians. Having your family in your head may motivate you to fight/survive, but it's different than asking to be in the mercy of God. If you ask to be in the mercy of God, then you are pretty much giving up your life to God's will, if God decides so then the fish will spit you out . I'm sure there are just as many stories where people have prayed and died, as there are where people have prayed and survived. There seems to be no correlation between praying and surviving a deadly situation, although some people have prayed and survived, there are those who haven't.

If it is true that praying helps one survive, then we would see a pattern that the people who pray tend to survive more often than those who don't. That has not been the case, and we have not observed such a thing.

In an emergency, there isn’t usually time for a nice conversation with God. A prayer can be as simple as a desperate ‘help!’ sent heavenward. After, it’s easy to claim you didn’t even pray at all. How soon we forget....

I don't even see why we're trying to figure this out, we can only speculate about it, there are no statistics which we can point to so we can see if praying does help survive or it doesn't. The only thing I can say is that some Christians think that just because they're Christian, God will answer their prayers. We have obviously seen Christian, Jewish and non-believers make it out of the trenches alive, we have also seen many of them perish in trenches, so the selection is not really "Christian, therefore survive" or "Pray to God, therefore survive."

 

[unred typo]

quote by doGon:
Right, the blue whale was the one with the large cranial cavity, but we ruled it out as unlikely to swallow a person. In the above paragraph your statement implies that the sperm whale has cranial cavities which are large enough to contain a whole person as well…

Well, actually, I thought the Sulphur whale was a different variety from the Blue. I’m no whale expert. I just found some interesting sites and information that applied. I guess the Sperm whale would be the one to look at.
From
http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjec ... hale.shtml

I found this:

The Sperm whale can hold its breath for about an hour. Whales breathe air at the surface of the water through a single, s-shaped blowhole. The blowhole is located on the left side of the front if its huge head. They spout (breathe) 3-5 times per minute at rest, but the rate increases to 6-7 times per minute after a dive. The blow is a noisy, single stream that rises up to 50 feet (15 m) above the surface of the water and points forward and to the left of the whale at a 45° angle.

I didn’t find any facts about the cranial cavities, but the account of the men who walked inside the dead whale on display, didn’t specify what kind of whale it was. I just assumed it was a sulphur whale. I won’t speculate on this any further since you have requested speculation should end. :wink: I’m happy with Jonah’s life/death experience in a great sea creature to be completely miraculous.

quote by doGon:
That's pretty interesting, you think that some people can't "even think at all", I hardly believe that it is the case... I think every person is capable of thinking.

I think you misunderstood me. I meant people who are brain dead from an accident that puts them in a coma, not people who have a functioning brain, however impaired they are.

quote by doGon:
As I said, the people who have survived "freak accidents" are all over the world, and many of them are not even Christians. Having your family in your head may motivate you to fight/survive, but it's different than asking to be in the mercy of God. If you ask to be in the mercy of God, then you are pretty much giving up your life to God's will, if God decides so then the fish will spit you out . I'm sure there are just as many stories where people have prayed and died, as there are where people have prayed and survived. There seems to be no correlation between praying and surviving a deadly situation, although some people have prayed and survived, there are those who haven't.

If it is true that praying helps one survive, then we would see a pattern that the people who pray tend to survive more often than those who don't. That has not been the case, and we have not observed such a thing.

Prayer remains a mystery for which I don’t even claim to have a whole lot of answers for. There are too many unknowns to make a reliable study of. Let’s not speculate here either.

quote by doGon:
I don't even see why we're trying to figure this out, we can only speculate about it, there are no statistics which we can point to so we can see if praying does help survive or it doesn't.

Agreed.

quote by doGon:
The only thing I can say is that some Christians think that just because they're Christian, God will answer their prayers. We have obviously seen Christian, Jewish and non-believers make it out of the trenches alive, we have also seen many of them perish in trenches, so the selection is not really "Christian, therefore survive" or "Pray to God, therefore survive."

I was not implying God only answers the prayers of Christians, or that he always answers ‘yes’ to those who pray. The issue is far more complex than that. Do you always give your children what they ask for? David prayed his sick child would live, but the baby died anyways. Hezekiah prayed he would not die and God gave him fifteen more years. It’s always a matter of his judgment, not ours.