Catholics in Mexico.

[golfjack]

We had a Missionary from Mexico in our Church today. He is Pastor of about 30 churches there. He said many Catholics are coming to Christ, and the healing anointing is so strong that many are being healed, and the revival there is amazing. Well, he also said that Christians are being persecuted by the Catholic Church because their churches are dwindling down in membership. But I was amazed that some Catholics are killiing Christians and doing atrocities to them. I thought this stopped many centuries ago,, but apparently not.

Please pray for our brothers and sisters in Christ, and also for the Catholics to come to a saving Knowledge of Jesus Christ.



May God bless, golfjack

 

[Solo]

We had a Missionary from Mexico in our Church today. He is Pastor of about 30 churches there. He said many Catholics are coming to Christ, and the healing anointing is so strong that many are being healed, and the revival there is amazing. Well, he also said that Christians are being persecuted by the Catholic Church because their churches are dwindling down in membership. But I was amazed that some Catholics are killiing Christians and doing atrocities to them. I thought this stopped many centuries ago,, but apparently not.

Please pray for our brothers and sisters in Christ, and also for the Catholics to come to a saving Knowledge of Jesus Christ.



May God bless, golfjack

Golfjack,
Unfortunately, those that are children of satan will continue to kill and persecute Christians until Jesus returns, and as it has done in the past, the Roman Catholic Church will murder believers and consider it God's work; claiming evil is good, and good is evil.

One of the most dangerous places to preach the gospel is in Mexico because of the Roman Catholic Institution. Praise God that there are many being born again out from under the bondage of the RCC.

 

[Lewis]

Yeah the whole south of the border is riddled with the RCC' but worldwide their numbers are going down' and I wonder why ? Are people finding out the truth' or is there another reason ?

 

[francisdesales]

We had a Missionary from Mexico in our Church today. He is Pastor of about 30 churches there. He said many Catholics are coming to Christ, and the healing anointing is so strong that many are being healed, and the revival there is amazing. Well, he also said that Christians are being persecuted by the Catholic Church because their churches are dwindling down in membership. But I was amazed that some Catholics are killiing Christians and doing atrocities to them. I thought this stopped many centuries ago,, but apparently not.

I think you are mistaking "people killing people" with religious persecution. Those people guilty of atrocities are Catholic in name only. What I have discovered on this issue is that Catholicism is more of a cultural thing in Mexico then a religious thing. (I live on the border) People are not being killed because some Protestants do not believe in the Real Presence of Christ! And trust me, those doing the atrocities are sinning and bound for hell without repentance. But I think you are a long way off in blaming the Catholic Church ITSELF for such actions. Sounds more like the typical "ugly Christian", one who is Christian in name only.

Regards

 

[golfjack]

reply

Fran. I believe God wants us to be hospitable in our relations with other Christians. We see this in 1 Tim. 3:2. This is a command of God. There are Christians in Mexico that are not welcomed by Catholics. I would say that what is brought about some Bishops in Mexico that receive money from drug lords, and teach people to either avoid or sometimes even kill or maim them is not very hospitable. The early church was very hosptible as we see in the book of Acts. Anyway, this is how God sees it.

Also, there are some in Pentecostal circles who are not very hospitable either. A prime example are hoiliness Pentecostals who have actually shunned me in their churches. You see, they demand that the wife wear a long dress and have long hair. I have a beard, and they almost kicked me out of the church saying I was from Satan. Not very hospitable.

Where in Arizona do you live? I live in Sierra Vista, which is very close to the border.



May God bless, golfjack

 

[francisdesales]

Re: reply

Fran. I believe God wants us to be hospitable in our relations with other Christians. We see this in 1 Tim. 3:2. This is a command of God. There are Christians in Mexico that are not welcomed by Catholics. I would say that what is brought about some Bishops in Mexico that receive money from drug lords, and teach people to either avoid or sometimes even kill or maim them is not very hospitable. The early church was very hosptible as we see in the book of Acts. Anyway, this is how God sees it.

I agree that we are commanded by Christ to be hospitable. EVERYONE is our neighbor, according to Him. While later NT writings, such as John, tell of shunning people from the community, I believe this is for incredibly immoral behavior, such as adultery or false teachings on FUNDAMENTAL truths (like Jesus didn't come in the flesh). "We are to have diversity in unity" has always been a Catholic axiom that has, sadly, not been lived up to its lofty expectations.

That is a serious charge, that a bishop is behind Catholics killing or hurting other non-Catholic Christians. If this is found to be true, this bishop would be immediately removed from his position by Rome. I think it is more likey that some Mexicans are a bit zealous in protecting what they see as an attack on their CULTURE and their turf, not necessarily their religious beliefs. I would venture to say most Mexicans aren't too aware of the Catechism and what it teaches, although they may be very devout and pious people. I do not believe these are religiously motivated attacks initiated by the Catholic Church, but wayward Mexicans who happen to be Catholic in name only.

Also, there are some in Pentecostal circles who are not very hospitable either. A prime example are hoiliness Pentecostals who have actually shunned me in their churches. You see, they demand that the wife wear a long dress and have long hair. I have a beard, and they almost kicked me out of the church saying I was from Satan. Not very hospitable.

This is majoring in minors... See, give a little power to people and see what happens? I have never heard such a thing where people are called "satan" for having a beard! That sounds like a throwback to the superstitious simple people of the Medieval ages. I guess it takes all kinds...

Where in Arizona do you live? I live in Sierra Vista, which is very close to the border.

I live in Yuma. We are only a few miles from Mexico.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Golfjack,
Unfortunately, those that are children of satan will continue to kill and persecute Christians until Jesus returns, and as it has done in the past, the Roman Catholic Church will murder believers and consider it God's work; claiming evil is good, and good is evil.

One of the most dangerous places to preach the gospel is in Mexico because of the Roman Catholic Institution. Praise God that there are many being born again out from under the bondage of the RCC.

The most dangerous place to preach the Gospel is in Mexico because of the CATHOLIC CHURCH? Ridiculous. Not only are you totally forgetting Islamic countries, but the Gospel ALREADY HAS been preached in Mexico... Perhaps you should read about the history of Mexico and how the Catholic Church was practically wiped out by the Mexican government not too long ago.

As usual, your historical perspective is wrong and full of hate.

Regards

 

[Imagican]

or, pershaps read the 'truth' of what the CC DID to Mexico. The Aztecs and Mayans were a people that were UTTERLY destroyed by The CC for ONE purpose. Anyone care to elaborate on this?

MEC

 

[Solo]

The most dangerous place to preach the Gospel is in Mexico because of the CATHOLIC CHURCH? Ridiculous. Not only are you totally forgetting Islamic countries, but the Gospel ALREADY HAS been preached in Mexico... Perhaps you should read about the history of Mexico and how the Catholic Church was practically wiped out by the Mexican government not too long ago.

As usual, your historical perspective is wrong and full of hate.

Regards

You twist all of the words that you read to suit your position, scripture and posts.

My quote was, "One of the most dangerous places to preach the gospel is in Mexico because of the Roman Catholic Institution."

You twisted it to say that I was declaring Catholicism to be "The Most" dangerous. You are a real piece of work.

I do hate the lies and deceptions of all of the false churches, you don't?

 

[francisdesales]

or, pershaps read the 'truth' of what the CC DID to Mexico. The Aztecs and Mayans were a people that were UTTERLY destroyed by The CC for ONE purpose. Anyone care to elaborate on this?

MEC

Say what? Cortez was a tool of the Catholic Church? Obviously, you don't know what you are talking about. Cortez was in it for himself, not the Catholic Church. Same with Pizzarro. The Catholic Church didn't destroy any civilization. Why do you keep making such silly accusations when anyone can go to any encyclopedia and refute such garbage?

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

or, pershaps read the 'truth' of what the CC DID to Mexico. The Aztecs and Mayans were a people that were UTTERLY destroyed by The CC for ONE purpose. Anyone care to elaborate on this?

MEC

Say what? Cortez was a tool of the Catholic Church? Obviously, you don't know what you are talking about. Cortez was in it for himself, not the Catholic Church. Same with Pizzarro. The Catholic Church didn't destroy any civilization. Why do you keep making such silly accusations when anyone can go to any encyclopedia and refute such garbage?

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

You twist all of the words that you read to suit your position, scripture and posts.

My quote was, "One of the most dangerous places to preach the gospel is in Mexico because of the Roman Catholic Institution."

You twisted it to say that I was declaring Catholicism to be "The Most" dangerous. You are a real piece of work.

I do hate the lies and deceptions of all of the false churches, you don't?

Solo,

The point I was making is that you are blaming the entire Catholic Church because of a few idiot people who may or may not even be Catholics, perhaps merely nominal Catholics who are more interested in retaining their culture rather than disputing with Protestants over the words of John 6... Do you really think Mexicans care about such issues? These are simple people worried more about finding jobs, not about pouring over the Bible to trip up other people who are not worshipping God in their particular way... Protestant ministers who go to these third world nations are finding this out the hard way.

By blaming the Catholic Church without any sort of proof for such atrocities shows the depths you are willing to stoop to lie and lay the blame of what is happening in Mexico squarely on the Church ITSELF. Is EVERY CRIME supposedly done by a Catholic to be laid at the foot of the ENTIRE Catholic Church? I suppose then you will be saying that every sin of a Christian is Christ's fault... Or every crime committed in the USA is the fault of the US Government. Your logic is truly incredible.

Do you have any evidence for your claims? Some places would call your assertions libel. But I suppose such wild accusations are par for the course from you. You have shown you care nothing about the Truth, only your own opinions. Perhaps someday you will grow up and realize that truth is sometimes found outside of ourselves and that the world doesn't revolve around you.

I hate lies but I am called to defend the reasons for my faith meekly. I see a difference in our approach, which should be an indication of who is trying to be more like Christ and who is trying to prove HIMSELF right at ANY cost.

Regards

 

[Solo]

Solo,

The point I was making is that you are blaming the entire Catholic Church because of a few idiot people who may or may not even be Catholics, perhaps merely nominal Catholics who are more interested in retaining their culture rather than disputing with Protestants over the words of John 6...


...By blaming the Catholic Church without any sort of proof for such atrocities shows the depths you are willing to stoop to lie and lay the blame of what is happening in Mexico squarely on the Church ITSELF. Is EVERY CRIME supposedly done by a Catholic to be laid at the foot of the ENTIRE Catholic Church?

This is an excerpt from an address given by the Cardinals to Pope Pius III, and is preserved in the National Library of Paris, Folio No. 1068, Vol. 2, pp. 650 651:

"Of all the advice that we can offer your holiness we must open your eyes well and use all possible force in the matter, namely to permit the reading of the gospel as little as possible in all the countries under your jurisdiction. Let the very little part of the gospel suffice which is usually read in mass, and let no one be permitted to read more. So long as people will be content with the small amount, your interest will prosper; but as soon as the people want to read more, your interest will fail. The Bible is a book, which more than any other, has raised against us the tumults and tempests by which we have almost perished. In fact, if one compares the teaching of the Bible with what takes place in our churches, he will soon find discord, and will realize that our teachings are often different from the Bible, and oftener still, contrary to it."

From the 2006 Department of State International Religious Freedom site located at http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2006/71467.htm

The Federal Government generally respects religious freedom in practice; however, poor enforcement mechanisms allowed local authorities in Chiapas and several other states to discriminate against persons based on their religious beliefs. Federal and local governments often failed to punish those responsible for acts of religiously motivated violence. In parts of Chiapas, leaders of indigenous communities sometimes regarded evangelical groups and Catholic lay catechists as unwelcome outside influences and as potential economic and political threats. As a result, these leaders sometimes acquiesced in or ordered the harassment or expulsion of individuals belonging chiefly to Protestant evangelical groups. The DAR estimated that 15 percent of reported religious conflicts--115 since the beginning of the Fox administration in 2000--were abuses by local authorities. Often these authorities were unpaid officials of small, rural municipalities. Religious differences frequently were the cited feature of such incidents; however, the disputes frequently involved several underlying factors, including ethnic differences, land disputes, and struggles over local political and economic power. In past years, expulsions involved burning of homes and crops, beatings, and, occasionally, killings. During the period covered by this report, there were no known deaths in incidents that had a religious dimension. These incidents usually occurred in predominantly Catholic-Mayan communities, and they mostly involved Catholics harassing or abusing evangelicals or other Protestants. On several occasions, village officials imposed sanctions on evangelicals for resisting participation in community festivals or refusing to work on Saturdays.

From the article, Mexican Protestants cut into Catholics' religious turf from http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/americas/9901/ ... index.html

January 22, 1999
Web posted at: 10:03 p.m. EST (0303 GMT)

MEXICO CITY (CNN) -- In a southern Mexican township where 25 years of persecutions have killed dozens of their colleagues and forced 25,000 to flee, evangelical Protestants are now discovering a fertile environment to plant new churches.

For two decades, most Protestants in San Juan Chamula, in Mexico's southernmost Chiapas state, had to worship in the privacy of their own homes. Their very presence angered villagers, who saw Protestants as a threat to their local cultural, religious and economic traditions....

...Most Protestants are still too afraid to return to their homes in Chamula, but they see the new church as a foothold for their faith.

"We began with just one family here," said a local evangelical pastor. "Now we are many."


Some blame Protestantism's success on dissatisfaction with Catholic conservatism
The spread of these struggling yet resilient Protestant churches in Latin America, home to half of the world's 1 billion Catholics, worries Roman Catholic Church leaders. It is a concern Pope John Paul II is expected to discuss during his present visit to Mexico.

Since 1979, when John Paul assumed the papacy, the Catholic Church has lost an estimated 40 to 60 million followers in Latin America. In Mexico alone, at least 10 percent of the people have converted to Protestant faiths.

Evangelicals are especially successful in rural areas, where people are poor, illiterate and desperate.

"Many of these religious movements, especially the Pentecostals, who are very emotionally charged, get a grip in the poorest areas. And that's because these are the areas most abandoned by the government, by progress and by the Catholic Church," said religious affairs expert Bernardo Barranco.



From MEXICO: Protestants Forced to Flee

Though religious liberty is guaranteed in Mexico's constitution,
its abuse stems from a fierce emergent nationalism often expressed
as anti-Americanism and anti-Protestantism, with an insistence on
all things 'traditional'. Many Mexicans are culturally Catholic,
but nominal and syncretistic. However, in recent decades many
Catholics have been discovering the Bible and turning to
evangelical Christianity. This has generated hostility from the
Catholic leadership who sense their traditional authority being
threatened.

 

[JM]

What I find odd is how the 3rd world is coming to Christ, and North America is converting to Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy. About 10 years ago 2000 Bible believing Christians became Orthodox in a single year.

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/inq_convert.aspx

:-?

 

[francisdesales]

Solo,

Thank you for your posts. They prove my point. The assaults on Protestant evangelists are not from the Catholic Church, but from disaffected villagers intent on protecting their culture - esp. by NOMINAL Catholics acting independently from any Church bishops.

Regards

 

[Imagican]

fran,

You seem oblivious as to how closely intertwined the CC and those that ruled their perspective countries TRULY were. If I am NOT mistaken, Cortez WAS a Catholic by faith. If I am NOT mistaken, he carried representatives of the CC WITH HIM on his voyage of conquest. And, MOST likely, EVERY member of his crew WERE Catholics. So, with these FACTS in mind, do you NOT understand better what I stated in my previous post? And once the mandate was enacted, the Aztecs were basically given a choice between conversion or death/slavery/death.

I don't know what sources of history you have chosen to believe in, but the truth is apparent to ANYONE that does but a cursory investigation into what the CC perpetrated in the Americas. You claim that Cortez was 'in it for himself'. So what? My point, was the CC involved with the aproval of his mission? Did they play a part in the treatment of those mentioned? Was there ANY benefit to the CC by the plundering and enslavement of the Aztec people? If the answer to these questions is YES, then I have offered NOTHING that is un-true.

Your continued defense of the atrocious behavior of the CC just goes to show that you have chosen to 'close your eyes' and allow those that you follow to fill you with a 'different story' than the one that truly took place.

MEC

 

[francisdesales]

fran,

You seem oblivious as to how closely intertwined the CC and those that ruled their perspective countries TRULY were. If I am NOT mistaken, Cortez WAS a Catholic by faith. If I am NOT mistaken, he carried representatives of the CC WITH HIM on his voyage of conquest. And, MOST likely, EVERY member of his crew WERE Catholics. So, with these FACTS in mind, do you NOT understand better what I stated in my previous post? And once the mandate was enacted, the Aztecs were basically given a choice between conversion or death/slavery/death.

Brother,

The whole "world" was Catholic in name only. Catholicism was the religion of EVERYONE. Does that mean everyone practiced it? Does that mean everyone believed it? Does that mean everyone was devoted? Hardly. People were born Catholic and died Catholic, followed the rituals, etc...Many people took there religion seriously as it was part of the culture - but it doesn't follow that religion was the reason for Cortez for going to Mexico. It was about conquest and money. Catholic expansion was a side show, of little concern to the Conquistadors.

They were poor representatives of what Catholicism really was about, much like the Pharisees were poor representatives of Judaism and John Kerry is a poor representative of Catholicism today. Do you think John Kerry speaks for Catholics when he says it is OK to have an abortion? Do you think Ted Kennedy considers Catholic teaching when he votes in the Congress? Please. You are missing my point. The problem is that the Church consists of MANY weeds among the wheat. I see you are very quick to jump on the Church because of the weeds. ANY problem that comes up - and the person is even a nominal Catholic - well, naturally, you think that there is a conspiracy by Rome. Hitler and Stalin were born Catholic! I suppose World War 2 was the Catholic Church's fault, too...

I don't know what sources of history you have chosen to believe in, but the truth is apparent to ANYONE that does but a cursory investigation into what the CC perpetrated in the Americas. You claim that Cortez was 'in it for himself'. So what? My point, was the CC involved with the aproval of his mission? Did they play a part in the treatment of those mentioned? Was there ANY benefit to the CC by the plundering and enslavement of the Aztec people? If the answer to these questions is YES, then I have offered NOTHING that is un-true.

Well, the answer is "no". There is plenty of documentation that shows that Bishops stationed in the Americas disapproved of the treatment of the natives. What is the Church supposed to do against men with guns???

Your continued defense of the atrocious behavior of the CC just goes to show that you have chosen to 'close your eyes' and allow those that you follow to fill you with a 'different story' than the one that truly took place.

You are missing the point. I am not defending the actions of men. I am saying that the Catholic Church was not "behind the scenes" of such atrocities. You make the association "because he is Catholic by birth, it is the Church's fault he sins". Wrong. MAN is responsible for his own sin. The Church is a hospital for sinners. Christ did not come for the self-righteous. I do not see evidence that there was a conspiracy where the Catholic Church as an institution was behind anything you seem to insist upon.

Now, naturally, I could take this in the other direction... I could also list all the problems of the Protestant communities. All the atrocities foisted by Protestant men upon non-Protestants - or even OTHER Protestants, such as the Anabaptists. The English Reformation. Persecution in Germany. Persecution in England. Persecution in the Americas. I don't think your "organization" has room to talk - if one was to take your approach to this matter.

However, I realize that the sins of some men do not necessarily damn the entire organization.

Regards

 

[Imagican]

fran,

I do NOT defend the fallibility of of the Protestant faith any more than I would condemn the Catholic faith. I consider myself NEITHER. I believe that it is MUCH more important that we abandon the weak and fallible 'religions' that we have formed and simply worship God through His Son. Love God above all else and love our neighbors AS ourselves. This is the great commandment and I have found that 'religion' somehow finds a way to abandon this for the sake of 'their own churches'. Condemning ALL that refuse to accept 'their way'. Thus, the nature of 'religion'. Are you aware that the words religious and religion are used less than ten times each in the entire Bible?

But the MOST important thing, fran, is to be able to discern that which contradicts The Word and do our BEST to refrain from following that which DOES NOT honor God or His Son. When we begin to 'trust' in men to lead us in this direction, it IS inevitable that they WILL lead us astray. For once power of this magnitude is placed in 'their' hands, they WILL become corrupted by it. We see this in what men call; 'doctrine'. Christ offered ONE doctrine. That being LOVE. For us to follow ANY other doctrine is to abandon what He offered and choose 'our own way' instead.

There are FEW rituals that Christ taught, yet there are MANY that MOST churches insist upon. That in itself goes to show just how far they have veered from the 'TRUTH'. And the CC created MOST of this 'man-made' ritual and it was simply carried over into the Protestant faith. You would consider me a Protestant. And that just goes to show how much IMPORTANCE men have placed in 'their own understanding' rather than relying upon Christ and His Father, God, our Creator.

Yes, there IS ONLY ONE CHURCH. And this too goes to show how the divisions that have been created are NOT what God intended. He intended for HIMSELF to BE Our God, NOT a 'church leader'. Our worship was to be limited to Him and His Son, NOT men of the flesh or women of the flesh. Yet we can PLAINLY see what has become of His will. Tons and tons of 'man-made' ritual, no different than what the religious leaders had perpetrated against those that followed them during the time of Christ. He warned us of this behavior and look what we did with what He gave us. Pretty sad really. Filthy lucre is a pretty powerful force in the flesh and is OVER-POWERING to those unable or unwilling to resist.

And once again, please believe me fran, when I say that I hold NONE of the atrocities of the CC against YOU or ANY single follower of this faith. I simply try to point out the folly of following such 'religions'.

MEC

 

[francisdesales]

fran,

I do NOT defend the fallibility of of the Protestant faith any more than I would condemn the Catholic faith. I consider myself NEITHER. I believe that it is MUCH more important that we abandon the weak and fallible 'religions' that we have formed and simply worship God through His Son. Love God above all else and love our neighbors AS ourselves. This is the great commandment and I have found that 'religion' somehow finds a way to abandon this for the sake of 'their own churches'. Condemning ALL that refuse to accept 'their way'. Thus, the nature of 'religion'. Are you aware that the words religious and religion are used less than ten times each in the entire Bible?

Hmm. My wife and I had a party at our house last weekend, and one of our friend's kids, a 27 year old, said pretty much the same thing - although he took it further by calling Christianity just another religion. Thus, Christ is just another way to God. It was the typical "relativistic" argument - my God is just as good as your God (we both are right and we should worship how we feel like it). The Bible is nice, but there are other sacred books around... Do you agree with this sentiment? Why even bother to go through Jesus? Why not just be good to our neighbors and love everyone as ourselves? Isn't even YOUR version of Christianity a "religion" that excludes people? That "condemns" people? You may have fewer rituals, perhaps you don't worship in a community of people, but you still believe your version of truth is closer than a Muslim's version, don't you?

Naturally, I disagree with this line of thought. There CANNOT be multiple truths, especially when they contradict. God cannot be one and many at the same time. And while all religions have some truth because the Spirit dwells within men, the Spirit leads and guides the CHURCH to all truth. Thus, we believe that the Apostolic Church continues the sound teachings of the Bible. God desires all men to come to the truth - and we cannot do that unless we come to the conclusion that there is only ONE complete truth floating around in the world. Those who seek the truth will find it completely in the Catholic Church. The evidence points to the Catholic Church as the visible manifestation of unity among the people of God (which, in some way, includes Protestants and "other" believers of Christ who claim no religious affiliation).

But the MOST important thing, fran, is to be able to discern that which contradicts The Word and do our BEST to refrain from following that which DOES NOT honor God or His Son. When we begin to 'trust' in men to lead us in this direction, it IS inevitable that they WILL lead us astray. For once power of this magnitude is placed in 'their' hands, they WILL become corrupted by it. We see this in what men call; 'doctrine'. Christ offered ONE doctrine. That being LOVE. For us to follow ANY other doctrine is to abandon what He offered and choose 'our own way' instead.

No doubt. But one must be careful about defining that "Word". One can very easily conclude that only their own opinion defines the "Word". Thus, you quickly become your own Magesterium, a self-proclaimed teacher of the masses. God didn't intend to interpret the Scriptures separate from the Church. Consider how the Bible came to be. YEARS after Christianity began, the Apostles began to write letters to people who already have been orally taught the Gospel. These letters were NOT a compilation of EVERYTHING taught! They are letters written to specific communities with specific problems. The Apostles didn't sit down and write a catechism that details "Chapter One - Belief in God", "Chapter Two - the Trinity" and so forth. Thus, your definition of the "Word" is based on your own interpretation of only PART of the Apostolic teachings.

In the end, don't we rely on men to some degree? We rely that the men who wrote the Bible were truly inspired by God, don't we? Paul in Galatians claims to have the Gospel from God - based on what "proof"? We trust that those who knew him were absolutely convinced. I think in 2 Tim 3, Paul tells Timothy this very thing - "you knew from whom you learned it" - meaning that Paul's actions vouched for the truth of his word. We continue to act this way. When we see a body of teaching that claims to come from God, we look to see if this can be verified by the actions of the people making this claim. Naturally, we don't have to take into account EVERY person in that organization. But overall, I believe that the Catholic Church has a stupendous track record of showing itself to the be the light of the world for others. Not only in the canonized saints, but also in the rank and file, the little old lady who goes about her rituals and feels herself close to God - and it shows by how kind she is to others. St. Augustine said he wouldn't believe the Gospels if it were not for the Catholic Church - meaning that the behavior and history of the Church verified the claim that they made - to be the bearers of the Word of God.

Yes, we are to love. And one doesn't need to go to Church on Sundays to love. However, worshiping in a community of like-minded people who specifically are turning to God and can help you in your weak moments and provide exhortation and inspiration has been shown to be more conducive to growing in one's own spirituality. God is a community of persons, and so is man. We act better with other people and God desires us to come together to worship Him - not for His sake, but for our own sake.

There are FEW rituals that Christ taught, yet there are MANY that MOST churches insist upon. That in itself goes to show just how far they have veered from the 'TRUTH'. And the CC created MOST of this 'man-made' ritual and it was simply carried over into the Protestant faith. You would consider me a Protestant. And that just goes to show how much IMPORTANCE men have placed in 'their own understanding' rather than relying upon Christ and His Father, God, our Creator.

I believe various communities have rituals and manners of doing things for the sake of unity and continuity of the community. It would be a disorganized rabble if people came together as a group and decided to stand or sit or lay down or speak out of turn whenever they wanted. When the community acts in unision, we are showing our unity of reaching out to God. The man-made rituals are meant to unite the community and offer its praise to God as one Body. Christ told His disciples to baptize and He told them to celebrate the Eucharist. One presumes He taught them HOW to do these rituals?

Yes, there IS ONLY ONE CHURCH. And this too goes to show how the divisions that have been created are NOT what God intended. He intended for HIMSELF to BE Our God, NOT a 'church leader'. Our worship was to be limited to Him and His Son, NOT men of the flesh or women of the flesh. Yet we can PLAINLY see what has become of His will. Tons and tons of 'man-made' ritual, no different than what the religious leaders had perpetrated against those that followed them during the time of Christ. He warned us of this behavior and look what we did with what He gave us. Pretty sad really. Filthy lucre is a pretty powerful force in the flesh and is OVER-POWERING to those unable or unwilling to resist.

Man has always desired to worship in a community of people - all the way back to the time of Genesis. I believe that God has placed that desire in man for a specific reason, one that brings us into closer union with Him. Also, man thinks more clearly in the visible realm, rather than in abstract models and theories. Thus, God has "reached down" to man and revealed Himself at the level that we could accept. The Bible is a prime example of how God reveals Himself to man based on what man at the time can handle. God Himself declared that men would conduct rituals for the purpose of more clearly coming to Him as a Body, a community of believers. I don't think the problem is with rituals, per sec. The problem is more when rituals or traditions move us AWAY from God. Many examples are found in the Mishna or Talmud. Christ attacks Korban, the idea of circumventing one's responsibility to your parents by depositing one's money into the Temple bank. Christ attacked this circumvention of God's Law of honoring one's parents, because that was the PURPOSE of this tradition. I am not aware of any Catholic tradition that purposely avoids to obey the commandments of God. Religion means "to bind to God". Man has many ways of "binding oneself to God", many traditions and teachings. I don't see religion as a bad thing until people use it to manipulate other people and there will always be such people.

Thanks for this conversation as it has helped me put some thoughts into words regarding my faith.

Regards

 

[Imagican]

Fran,

Please don't think for a second that I am oblivious to our NEED to gather. What concerns me though is the HOW of the gathering.

And I don't believe that Christ is 'just another religion or way to God'. Christ is the ONLY way that I know of to reach God. I just shudder a bit at times when I hear the word 'Christianity' for the EXACT reason that you have eluded to in past posts; MANY claim Christianity and have done OUTRAGEOUS things in it's name. However, the truth behind these claims is MORE often 'false' and THIS leads to degenerative testimony which leads others to follow 'false Christianity' rather than a total commitment to Christ and His Father.

I believe the BIGGEST cause of what I have stated are the 'churches'. I don't mean 'The Church', but churches, buildings with distinct doctrine designed to separate themselves from others. And I see through their history that the Catholic Church 'started this', 'you MUST do it OUR way' mentality. Whereas, EACH of us is responsible for OUR OWN personal relationship with the Father through His Son. Our individual salvation CANNOT be offered by men. No matter how many 'hail Marys', no matter how much money one drops in a plate, no matter how much ritual one performs, it is up to the INDIVIDUAL as to whether they are concerned with a relationship or simply choose to 'play the game' of Christianity.

When I refer to the CC, I refer MOSTLY to the clergy, NOT the followers of the CC. The followers for many centuries had little choice short of persecution. But the clergy has been ruthless and vain in their attempts to CONTROL Christianity and for this there is NO excuse. I do NOT condemn them, for this is beyond my capability. But, I surely hope to warn others to beware of, not ONLY the CC, but ANY church that chooses to teach their congregation to abandon the TRUE Leader and follow them instead.

We are NOT to be slaves to a church. Just the opposite in fact. The church SHOULD be at the disposal of the body. And this body is NOT a group of elite that place themselves ABOVE their sheep. Christ set the example and this is PLAIN to see for anyone with an open heart and open eyes.

So, for these reasons, and many more, I have found MOST denominations of 'Christianity' falling SERIOUSLY short of performing their function as set forth by Christ and His apostles. Tradition, ritual, doctrine, mission statements, all seem to 'create' some kind of DIFFERENT approach than that which we have been offered through The Word. THIS is what I would try my best to offer ANY that would choose to hear. Abandon that which DOES NOT pertain to God or His Son and dilligently SEEK that which DOES HONOR Them. Take up Christ's cross YOURSLEF instead of expecting someone else to 'do it for you'. Accept what has been offered and offer it as well yourself.

Fran, I do not speak out of ignorance so much as those that have chosen to devote themselves to a 'church' would think of me. I have simply accepted what has been offered REGARDLESS of what men may try and tell me. I love God and I KNOW He loves me and through the relationship that has developed, I am SURE that much of what I offer is HIDDEN to MANY others who have chosen instead to HOPE that 'someone else' can LEAD them to Salvation. Brothers and Sisters, NO ONE CAN OFFER YOU SALVATION OTHER THAN God Through His Son. NO CHURCH CAN SAVE YOU. NO ONE CAN DIE FOR YOU, save Christ Jesus.

And Fran, I have found NO church that chooses to offer this message without a bunch of 'man-made conditions' attached to their teachings. For this, I would expose their deceptions and encourage those that TRULY desire a relationship with the Father through His Son to 'beware' of those that 'stand on your backs' and lead you as a horse with a bridle. Stand up and allow God and His Son to be 'your Teachers'. Have faith and BELIEVE what has been offered as FACT with ALL YOUR HEART. This IS the way to Salvation, not some 'church game' that one plays at once or twice a week, at the expense of 'wasting valuable time' that would be better spent sitting at home reading God's Word and thanking Him PERSONALLY for all the WONDERFUL things that He has done for us.

MEC