Catholics in Mexico.

[francisdesales]

Fran,

Please don't think for a second that I am oblivious to our NEED to gather. What concerns me though is the HOW of the gathering.

And I don't believe that Christ is 'just another religion or way to God'. Christ is the ONLY way that I know of to reach God. I just shudder a bit at times when I hear the word 'Christianity' for the EXACT reason that you have eluded to in past posts; MANY claim Christianity and have done OUTRAGEOUS things in it's name. However, the truth behind these claims is MORE often 'false' and THIS leads to degenerative testimony which leads others to follow 'false Christianity' rather than a total commitment to Christ and His Father.

I recently posted an article on this forum on this subject. Catholics call everyone Christian who have been baptized. Some Evangelical Protestants only will call those people who make a drastic change towards Christ as worthy of the title "Christian". There is a problem with that.

First, it presumes to read the heart and mind of another person. Some people are not truly following Christ just because they "appear" to be doing good deeds. We are all aware of people who have ulterior motives for being nice to others. On the other hand, some people we catch at their worse moments - but are really trying to be a disciple of Christ. Thus, it is not a fool-proof manner of determining WHO is a "Christian".

And secondly, it is not biblical:

"Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:

Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved." Rom 9:27

A person will be called a child of God by men, but only God will truly know who is of the elect. Not men.

Now, I agree that a "poor Christian" can give faulty testimony, but it is also the community's responsibility to look after its own in such matters. We as a community don't often do this very well. However, your way of looking at things attempts to make a self-proclaimed elitist community where people go around accusing each other of not being a "true" Christian for any sin committed. This form of elitism does not breed love, but envy and division.

I believe the BIGGEST cause of what I have stated are the 'churches'. I don't mean 'The Church', but churches, buildings with distinct doctrine designed to separate themselves from others. And I see through their history that the Catholic Church 'started this', 'you MUST do it OUR way' mentality. Whereas, EACH of us is responsible for OUR OWN personal relationship with the Father through His Son. Our individual salvation CANNOT be offered by men. No matter how many 'hail Marys', no matter how much money one drops in a plate, no matter how much ritual one performs, it is up to the INDIVIDUAL as to whether they are concerned with a relationship or simply choose to 'play the game' of Christianity.

The Catholic Church "started" nothing regarding this idea. It is the way of men... The Jews of the Old Testament were no different, were they? Did anyone worship as they desired? Didn't the Law include rules that condemned people for avoiding Sabbath worship? Were they not cast out of the community? Now, if you believe that the Bible is the Word of God, then I presume you will agree that it states throughout that man worships God in a community. Those who refuse are cast out of the community. Yes, each of us is responsible for our relationship with God. And that is why He gives us a community of fellow worshipers to help us in time of need. Our salvation IS mediated through men - since men GAVE us the Message, the Gospel. That is a simple historical fact. God told MEN to continue to preach and teach all that He taught a PARTICULAR group of men.

Now, if you believe that salvation is ONLY through ONE person, Jesus Christ, it is beyond me how you can then disconnect the commands He gave to ONE PARTICULAR GROUP on how to worship God properly in spirit and in truth. If you believe that salvation comes through many ways, then sure, the Catholic Church is one of many routes. But if through Christ alone, then he who rejects YOU (Apostles) rejects ME (Christ) applies even today.

Rituals, prayers, devotions, etc., are all AIDS to bring man to God. When they are abused, naturally, there will be problems. But ALL goodness can be abused. Even LOVE can be changed into something that can abuse - consider the burning of a heretic for the sake of saving one's soul. We would frown on such a mindset today. But we must be wary of forcing our own thoughts and way of thinking upon people from 500 years ago.

When I refer to the CC, I refer MOSTLY to the clergy, NOT the followers of the CC. The followers for many centuries had little choice short of persecution. But the clergy has been ruthless and vain in their attempts to CONTROL Christianity and for this there is NO excuse. I do NOT condemn them, for this is beyond my capability. But, I surely hope to warn others to beware of, not ONLY the CC, but ANY church that chooses to teach their congregation to abandon the TRUE Leader and follow them instead.

Well, sure. Perhaps you can point me to a Catholic priest that says "follow me, not Christ?" Again, people can become misguided and have their own opinions on how people ARE to come to Christ. I believe that men in power in religious groups do NOT have entirely evil motives when they abuse their power - whether they were Catholic OR Protestants. In Calvin's case, for example, he truly thought that he was serving his community by condeming his rival to be burned at the stake for heresy. In their minds, I believe, men in authority have their concepts on how the community to worship properly. People on this very forum argue their points of view. Are you trying to tell me that if someone like yourself, with your strong opinions, wouldn't be tempted to utilize your power to "bring more people from their ways of error into 'true' relationship with Christ"? That is my opinion. Men in power have their opinions on what is the best way to come to Christ. They are TRYING to help people come to Christ - but in retrospect, they may have been wrong or they were abusive in the means to reach the end.

But none of that rules out the fact that God placed men in authority over other men in the religious community - both in the OT and the NT. We may turn our noses up on the means they used to bring people to God, but in the end, God is guiding the Church to all truth - even through wounded men.

We are NOT to be slaves to a church. Just the opposite in fact. The church SHOULD be at the disposal of the body. And this body is NOT a group of elite that place themselves ABOVE their sheep. Christ set the example and this is PLAIN to see for anyone with an open heart and open eyes.

No doubt. He told His apostles on several occasions that they are to be servants to the people. The Church calls the Pope the "Servant of the servants of the People of God". Now whether he acts the part in every waking moment of his life, that is another story. Men are men.

So, for these reasons, and many more, I have found MOST denominations of 'Christianity' falling SERIOUSLY short of performing their function as set forth by Christ and His apostles. Tradition, ritual, doctrine, mission statements, all seem to 'create' some kind of DIFFERENT approach than that which we have been offered through The Word. THIS is what I would try my best to offer ANY that would choose to hear. Abandon that which DOES NOT pertain to God or His Son and dilligently SEEK that which DOES HONOR Them. Take up Christ's cross YOURSLEF instead of expecting someone else to 'do it for you'. Accept what has been offered and offer it as well yourself.

Well, yes, we are to judge what is useful and good - and that includes accepting those in leadership roles of those over us. That is clear throughout the Bible. I believe you go too far by making yourself the arbitrator of God by refusing anything that doesn't fit your particular mold of coming to Christ.

Fran, I do not speak out of ignorance so much as those that have chosen to devote themselves to a 'church' would think of me. I have simply accepted what has been offered REGARDLESS of what men may try and tell me. I love God and I KNOW He loves me and through the relationship that has developed, I am SURE that much of what I offer is HIDDEN to MANY others who have chosen instead to HOPE that 'someone else' can LEAD them to Salvation. Brothers and Sisters, NO ONE CAN OFFER YOU SALVATION OTHER THAN God Through His Son. NO CHURCH CAN SAVE YOU. NO ONE CAN DIE FOR YOU, save Christ Jesus.

And the Church is merely an intrument of Jesus Christ. The day your realize that, the day the Church will begin to make more sense to you, warts and all. It is the Bride of Christ - and while in this world, will appear at times to be a rather ugly and homely lady. But in the end, she gave birth to us (we don't baptize ourselves) and she continues to nourish us on the Word of God. In the end, salvation is only through Christ's Body, the Church.

Regards

 

[Imagican]

fran,

You refered to the Jewish community of 'worshipping as a community'. In this you ARE correct. But look at what Christ offered concerning that 'community' at the time of His ministry. The community had become practically UTTERLY corrupted by the 'religious leaders' of the time. Living by these laws WITHOUT conforming to 'their PURPOSE' is of little account.

And I propose that men that insist upon ‘their will’ to bring others to Christ do NOT KNOW Christ to start with. They have fallen to temptation offered NOT OF GOD, but of some ‘other god’. They simply ‘think’ that they know God. For IF they truly knew God, then they would KNOW BETTER than to create their ‘own will’ to guide others and simply follow the will of God.

Fran, I realize that your intentions are pure, it’s your understanding that I question. There is ONLY ONE true Church. What I have found to be difficult is finding it. I DO believe that I have encountered some of it’s members. But The Church as a ‘group’, hardly.

So, you see, I believe that I AM a ‘part’ of the One True Church. And I have communion with these as we encounter one another. But, just as ‘your’ church would insist that I MUST be a ‘part’ of IT in order to serve God as commanded, so TOO do ALL the other denominations that I am aware of, (other than the Universalists).

Once again, PLEASE don’t think for a second that I simply formed an opinion based on NOTHING other than my OWN feelings. Much prayer thought and study have created this understanding and desire to warn others of such folly.

Churches have become pretty big business. Due to this ‘nature’ of the churches, they have been forced to deal with all the problems of a ‘business’. This is contradictory to The Word. ‘We need more money for a bigger grander church’. ‘We need more money in order to create MORE ways to spend more money’. Can’t you see how WRONG this is in the eyes of God. ‘Look at ALL the wonderous things we DO in your name’. And what will the answer be? It couldn’t be more clear to me that the churches have taken the path of ‘least resistance’ in order to fulfill ‘their own agendas’. This for the sake of their sheep? No, through the ‘toil’ of their sheep. Riding on their collective ‘backs’ in order to gain power and money.

And the proof of what I offer, fran, if I were to go among those that you would encourage me to join, and offer them the ‘truth’, they would shun me and outright ask me to LEAVE. Believing in their dark hearts that it was I that rebelled against The Word of God. For the ‘truth’ is NOT what they seek but NUMBERS instead. Members and dollars are their idols and they worship these WAY beyond God. In essence, they have bowed to the temptation to BE THEIR OWN GODS and there is little that can be offered them that is able to change their darkened hearts.

MEC

 

[francisdesales]

fran,

You refered to the Jewish community of 'worshipping as a community'. In this you ARE correct. But look at what Christ offered concerning that 'community' at the time of His ministry. The community had become practically UTTERLY corrupted by the 'religious leaders' of the time. Living by these laws WITHOUT conforming to 'their PURPOSE' is of little account.

Jesus didn't do away with Jewish worship. He merely was criticizing hypocrisy. Jesus insisted that those who sat in the chair of Moses be obeyed (Mat 23:1-3), but not used as an example. With this in mind, your premise fails... Public worship is God's gift to mankind - where we come closest to Him in this life, when done according to His will. Jesus harshly condemned hypocritical leaders, but not ALL were such. It is presumed that Catholic bishops will also be held under the microscope on judgment day - the shepherds will be held to higher standards then the sheep.

And I propose that men that insist upon ‘their will’ to bring others to Christ do NOT KNOW Christ to start with. They have fallen to temptation offered NOT OF GOD, but of some ‘other god’. They simply ‘think’ that they know God. For IF they truly knew God, then they would KNOW BETTER than to create their ‘own will’ to guide others and simply follow the will of God.

Well, that is an interesting thought. However, how can we KNOW what is God's will? It takes a lot of discernment - and it must conform to previous revelation. But in specific situations, this is not readily identifiable all the time. Sometimes, there are two legitimate courses of action. Since the Bible does not speak for itself, it is subject to the interpretation of men, whether these men be Catholic or Protestant. Thus, what IS "God's will" or "man's will"? Is this always so black and white? I propose that men have claimed to "know" God's will from even the Old Testament. The Scriptures verify this. The opinion of man "x" on what is the will of God may differ from man "y". And who makes another man the judge of what WAS God's will in retrospect??? Have you ever thought that it WAS God's will that the Spanish Inquistion take place, or the Crusades? The OT makes the same claims for the conquest of Palestine - it was God's will...

I am not so ready to admit that world events take place without God's direction.

Fran, I realize that your intentions are pure, it’s your understanding that I question. There is ONLY ONE true Church. What I have found to be difficult is finding it. I DO believe that I have encountered some of it’s members. But The Church as a ‘group’, hardly.

I think you are trying to find a group of people who are conforming to your particular idea of interpreting Scritpure and your particular idea of a virtuous group of people - and thus, are likely of the elect of God. While this might apparently be a good rule of thumb, in the end, men fail us - and then we believe we were duped and in the wrong organization. I believe that is why some Protestants switch churches so often. They are looking for the "pure" community. In some ways, this reminds me of Tertulian, one of the great Church Fathers of the Latin Church who later moved away from the Catholic Church becaue he didn't think the Church was stringent enough on sin! This is around 200 AD! Thus, this idea of a "pure" church has been around from the beginning. I believe it is an incorrect focus.

When we place our religion in man, we will eventually become disappointed. The purest communities will eventually have faults (whether they expect too much or are too demanding when one sins). Leaders will sin. Thus, when we place our trust in the pure leaders, we are setting ourselves up for a fall. This is why many Catholics had some serious issues during the sex scandal... People placed their hope in trusted priests rather than in God. Thus, when some of these trusted priests were accused of improper behavior, some Catholics thought GOD had abandoned the Church! This pattern of behavior is found in Protestant denominations, as well. What I am trying to say is that there will NEVER be a perfect organization that includes men until the Church itself is completely taken up into heaven. Thus, we should be careful of judging a community based on some of its members... Would we condemn Christianity because of the problems in Corinth?

So, you see, I believe that I AM a ‘part’ of the One True Church. And I have communion with these as we encounter one another. But, just as ‘your’ church would insist that I MUST be a ‘part’ of IT in order to serve God as commanded, so TOO do ALL the other denominations that I am aware of, (other than the Universalists).

Yes, you are part of the Church - presuming you have been baptized. Yes, you have communion with those you share with. "My" Church already realizes that - as per Vatican 2 "Lumen Gentium". Thus, you already ARE part of the church and part of the statement "Outside the Church, there is no salvation". The Catholic Church "insists" that you be "part" of it in a more fuller sense for your own good - not that you CANNOT be saved unless you join the visible community. God will judge such people based on their level of ignorance of the Church. I do not know at what point God will say "OK, you knew enough about my visible Church - why didn't you join it?" With this in mind, we hold out the hope that people such as yourself will indeed be saved. However, we cannot know!

Once again, PLEASE don’t think for a second that I simply formed an opinion based on NOTHING other than my OWN feelings. Much prayer thought and study have created this understanding and desire to warn others of such folly.

ditto. But based on some of the history I have seen you posting or agreeing with (no Catholic Church until Constantine?), you might want to do some research OUTSIDE of the biased Protestant web-sites that have an agenda. Go to secular histories and read about the Catholic Church.

Churches have become pretty big business. Due to this ‘nature’ of the churches, they have been forced to deal with all the problems of a ‘business’. This is contradictory to The Word. ‘We need more money for a bigger grander church’. ‘We need more money in order to create MORE ways to spend more money’. Can’t you see how WRONG this is in the eyes of God. ‘Look at ALL the wonderous things we DO in your name’. And what will the answer be? It couldn’t be more clear to me that the churches have taken the path of ‘least resistance’ in order to fulfill ‘their own agendas’. This for the sake of their sheep? No, through the ‘toil’ of their sheep. Riding on their collective ‘backs’ in order to gain power and money.

I agree that many communities take that view. I don't believe my parish does that. Catholics are one organization that doesn't talk about money and giving at every meeting or get-together or homily. When I went to Protestant worship services, it was hard NOT to hear about giving. That is just something I have seen in my limited experience. However, I do understand that man does desire to honor God in various ways, many of which include fancy buildings and so forth. Consider the Temple of Solomon.

And the proof of what I offer, fran, if I were to go among those that you would encourage me to join, and offer them the ‘truth’, they would shun me and outright ask me to LEAVE. Believing in their dark hearts that it was I that rebelled against The Word of God. For the ‘truth’ is NOT what they seek but NUMBERS instead. Members and dollars are their idols and they worship these WAY beyond God. In essence, they have bowed to the temptation to BE THEIR OWN GODS and there is little that can be offered them that is able to change their darkened hearts.

Hmm. I suppose that is no different than a person coming to your place of work and telling you how to do your job - that you aren't doing it right or not as efficiently as you should be. People normally bristle up when some "stranger" comes in with the "truth"! "Why is your truth better than my truth"? That is the question we hear in society today amongst non-believers or agnostics. People look at your "truth" and are hard pressed to admit you possess some inside track to it.

As I have said before, the only reason why the Gospel ITSELF was believed by strangers was the ensuing behavior of the teachers of the Gospel. Think about this for a minute... Who would be open to Paul's message, a "foolish message to the Greeks and Jews"? Why would anyone believe that someone rose from the dead, taken merely on the word of some traveling teacher? Obviously, Paul was a figure that demanded a choice - believe or not. His behavior must have been impecable. And I do believe that people are told to judge teachers based on their behavior.

We see this sort of behavior continues to draw people to Christ from a non-believer state. But it is more difficult from the point of view of a believer (a Jew, in Paul's time). It is more difficult to convince someone who already "knows" the truth that they are not quite correct. Thus, I think you might be expecting a lot to believe that you will be able to convince others that your truth is better than another's truth (among believing Christians). When people hear your claim to hold the truth unadultered, they are going to be naturally skeptical - "Who does he think he is"?

Now, Catholicism, on the other hand, is different, because it is NOT "my" truth. It is a truth outside of myself, truth that is not mine, but a truth that I attach myself to. It isn't based on MY opinions or interpretations. Thus, a person who is open to truth is more likely to accept Catholicism because it is not one person's truth, but a 2000 year old communities' truth as developed over the centuries. It is this same community that has given us the Bible, so it would make sense that this same community would be given the power to interpret it correctly (presuming God gave the Bible to man, God also would protect men to interpret it correctly).

It is basically for this reason that I remain within the Catholic Church, warts and all. I believe Christ established what would be called the Catholic Church in 100 AD by Ignatius of Antioch. Thus, if Christ is God, what choice do I have - IF I want to follow God? Invent my own truth? Am I following God by saying "well, I don't want to join the visible Church you began"?

Regards