Bible Study Catholics... Questions...

[Julian Pyke]

My first and foremost question is: What do Catholics believe as in, how do they think they get to heaven?[/i]

 

[Agarash]

welll... im no expert on this, but this is what i know: (also let me just say that no one knows the heart of people, only God, so if a person is a catholic we must not judge him.)

1. the Bible says:

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith -- and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God -- not by works, so that no one can boast.-Ephesians 2:8-9

catholics believe:

Man is justified by baptism plus faith, plus additional works (see Catholic Catechism Ref. Nos. 1265-1271, 1987-1995). Most good Catholics are therefore very concerned with "being good enough," "meriting," and "earning" their salvation

2. bible says:

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Romans 10:13

catholics believe:

Roman Catholicism teaches that salvation can be obtained only through the Roman Catholic church. The catechism leaves no doubt that the Catholic church is necessary for salvation

3.bible says:

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" Romans 3:23

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:" Romans 3:10

catholics believe:
the Pope is infallible in matters of doctrine, faith and morals.



the list goes on and on and on.. check out this link:
http://www.born-again-christian.info/catholics.htm

 

[Nikki]

I don't know all their beliefs, but I have a friend that was raised Catholic. She just recently started going to a Baptist church though and you should have heard her on the phone! She was so excited going on and on about the church and she said to me: "The best part is that they read out of the BIBLE! They actually pick stories out of the bible, read them and then talk about them. Can you believe that?!" I was dumbfounded. I was like "What else would you do in church? I've always read out of the bible". She said that her catholic church only read the "catholic bible" and it was nothing like the Holy Bible full of Jesus' words.

I felt so sorry for her, but at the same time, so happy because she is getting close to God! It left me wondering though what in the world catholics actually DO at church if they're not studying God's word. :-?

 

[My Fair Lady]

I don't know all their beliefs, but I have a friend that was raised Catholic. She just recently started going to a Baptist church though and you should have heard her on the phone! She was so excited going on and on about the church and she said to me: "The best part is that they read out of the BIBLE! They actually pick stories out of the bible, read them and then talk about them. Can you believe that?!" I was dumbfounded. I was like "What else would you do in church? I've always read out of the bible". She said that her catholic church only read the "catholic bible" and it was nothing like the Holy Bible full of Jesus' words.

I felt so sorry for her, but at the same time, so happy because she is getting close to God! It left me wondering though what in the world catholics actually DO at church if they're not studying God's word. :-?

No one is perfect and that includes Catholics, Baptists, Protestants, etc. And not everyone pays attention in their service or Mass. Yes, we read out of a Bible, the same Bible, but different versions(I'm saying your Bible is different then ours.). She may not have realized it because she wasn't paying attention in Mass. That's what the homily is, going over the passage that was read in Mass. Yes, we certainly do read the Bible in Church.

 

[CatholicXian]

All who reach Heaven do so by the grace and mercy of God through the merits won on the Cross by Jesus Christ.

A better question might be: how does one attain grace?

Grace is freely given by God in many ways, the believer then must be open and accepting of that grace (God does not force Himself on anyone). Grace also flows abundantly through the Sacraments (as they were set up by God), which is why you will find documentation stating the necessity of the Sacraments-- yes, we, as humans are bound by the Sacraments, but God, who is divine, is not bound by them (which is why He can choose to save whom He pleases)-- this is a fancy way of saying that the grace and mercy of God extends beyond His Sacraments.

Furthermore, not all the Sacraments are necessary... i.e., in the Roman rite, a person cannot receive the Sacrament of Holy Orders and the Sacrament of Matrimony.

Julian, I suggest, if you truly want to know what the Catholic Church teaches, get a Catechism, read it, cover to cover-- no skipping around, and if you have questions, ask a priest, or another educated Catholic (i.e., one that actually holds and practices the faith, and not their own version of it).

 

[Confusion]

2. bible says: Quote:
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Romans 10:13


catholics believe:Quote:
Roman Catholicism teaches that salvation can be obtained only through the Roman Catholic church. The catechism leaves no doubt that the Catholic church is necessary for salvation

Well Agarash... You were right... Your not an expert...
You guys also make being a Catholic sound bad...

First off, to what you say we Catholics believe... That is old doctrine... Stating the Church was needed in salvation...
Since Vatican II changes have been made... The Church does not claim to be perfect... Like a human, it makes mistakes and is willing to admit to them... Such as Pope John Paul II did so on many occasions...

Directly from the Catechism of the Catholic Church speaking on relations with Muslims.

"The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

As you can read, salvation is open to all with a belief in God, the Creator.

Also

The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."

and

To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.

Also, CatholicXian
To you example:
"i.e., in the Roman rite, a person cannot receive the Sacrament of Holy Orders and the Sacrament of Matrimony. "

One is able to recieve all seven sacraments... Such as a Man is married, his wife dies, then he enters the priesthood...


As My Fair Lady said Nikki, your friend must have been at Mass with closed ears... Or the readers and Priest were not loud enough...
The Bible is read every mass... At least... 6 times that I can think of without going into what is repeated in various mass...
No offence, but your friend sounds like a "Cradle Catholic" whom has grown accustom to the Mass but never truly LISTENED to it...
And aren't the Baptist and Catholic Bibles similarly closes? Or do I have an old list of books in each...

3.bible says: Quote:
"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" Romans 3:23
Quote:
"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:" Romans 3:10

catholics believe:
the Pope is infallible in matters of doctrine, faith and morals.

When spoken Ex Cathedra...

As to your link and such...
There is to much there for me even to begin to write about... Though it is a nice website and layout, I find the section on the teachings of the Church to be very inacurate and in need of review...

And in matters to the original questions... As CatholicXian said, possibly try reading the Catechism...

I would try and answer, but I fear I may slip in my limited knowledge

 

[Nikki]

I've never read a catholic bible. I'll be the first to admit that I really know NOTHING about the catholic religion except what I hear from friends that are catholics. And I'll also admit that not all "catholics" are the same....just like any other denomination. I grew up baptist and my in-laws are baptist. Yet, they believe in things that I don't and vice versa. We're always arguing over something. For instance, their church is against mulitracial relationships. Yet, anytime I've tried to get them to show me scripture that proves that it's wrong, they can't. They're from West Virginia. I blame everything with them on that. BAHAHAHA!!! :

Anyways, my friend said that the catholic bible is NOT the same as the HOLY BIBLE. She said that it doesn't have all the wonderful stories that the Holy Bible does. She was a catholic for 26 years.

 

[Julian Pyke]

They just ahve more books of the Bible in their Bible...

 

[Magdalene]

I have read the catechism of the Catholic church--available here if anyone is interested.

So I ask these questions with a somewhat clear understanding (of what it says compared to what the bible says):

How is it acceptable that the catechism officially reorganized and renumbered the 10 commandments? Specifically, omitting the second one altogether and using careful wording in the explanation given about the first commandment which essentially says that the second is null and void--because what is said 'not to do' is now deemed acceptable by the authorities of the church?
commandments

The 9th commandment is now about 'purity of heart'...
more commandments

Now, please understand I say this not to attack anyone for their beliefs--my interest is only in what is right and true as God has given through His Son, Jesus Christ. I don't know what anyone else is aware of, I can only declare what I have found in my own investigations.

The 10 commandments, as given by God, to Moses, can be found in Deuteronomy 5:16 and Exodus 20:1.

 

[CatholicXian]

Catholics did not reorganize the 10 Commandments... If you'll notice, the Commands are not exactly written out as "number one is... number two is..." (boy, that would've made it easier!).

The Commandment which you are alluding to Catholics leaving out-- i.e., not making graven images.. IS included in the First Commandment. A graven image is an idol (check the Hebrew.. "pesel"="idol"). If one worships an idol then they do not have only one God, which is the First Commandment. The statues, etc. which Catholics have are NOT idols-- as in, Catholics do not worship them as God. There is only ONE God. The statues, etc. that Catholics use are intended to remind the Catholic of God, and the good things that God has done for man throughout the ages. Do you object to Christians wearing crosses? What about crosses on churches? Do you object to those as well?

I'm not sure what your problem is regarding the 9th Commandment? Purity of heart is a good thing, and it is but one aspect of the 9th Commandment, not the entire thing. So what's the issue??

 

[Gary]

There is a difference in how Jews, Protestants and Roman Catholics arrange the 10 Commandments.

For the detail, please read this:
http://www.geocities.com/gary_bee_za/bi ... dments.htm

Jews have the 10 commandments as:

• (1) Belief in God. This category is derived from the declaration in Ex. 20:2 beginning, "I am the Lord, your God..."
  (2) Prohibition of Improper Worship. This category is derived from Ex. 20:3-6, beginning, "You shall not have other gods..." It encompasses within it the prohibition against the worship of other gods as well as the prohibition of improper forms of worship of the one true God.
  (3) Prohibition of Oaths. This category is derived from Ex. 20:7, beginning, "You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain..." This includes prohibitions against perjury, breaking or delaying the performance of vows or promises, and speaking God's name or swearing unnecessarily.
  (4) Shabbat. This category is derived from Ex. 20:8-11, beginning, "Remember the sabbath day..." It encompasses all mitzvot related to shabbat, holidays, or sacred time.
  (5) Respect for Parents and Teachers. This category is derived from Ex. 20:12, beginning, "Honour your father and mother..."
  (6) Prohibition of Murder. This category is derived from Ex. 20:13a, saying, "You shall not murder."
  (7) Prohibition of Adultery. This category is derived from Ex. 20:13b, saying, "You shall not commit adultery."
  (8) Prohibition of Theft. This category is derived from Ex. 20:13c, saying, "You shall not steal." It includes within it both outright robbery as well as various forms of theft by deception and unethical business practices. It also includes kidnapping.
  (9) Prohibition of False Witness. This category is derived from Ex. 20:13d, saying, "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour."
  (10) Prohibition of Coveting
  This category is derived from Ex. 20:14, beginning, "You shall not covet your neighbour’s house..."

Protestants have the 10 commandments as:

• (Preface) I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. (Exodus 20:2)
  (1) Thou shalt have no other gods before me. (Exodus 20:3)
  (2) Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. (Exodus 20:4-6)
  (3) Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. (Exodus 20:7)
  (4) Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservent, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. (Exodus 20:8-11)
  (5) Honor thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee. (Exodus 20:12)
  (6) Thou shalt not kill. (Exodus 20:13)
  (7) Thou shalt not commit adultery. (Exodus 20:14)
  (8) Thou shalt not steal. (Exodus 20:15)
  (9) Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor. (Exodus 20:16)
  (10) Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor anything that is thy neighbor’s. (Exodus 20:17)

The Roman Catholics have the 10 commandments as:

• (1) Exodus 20:2-6 I am the LORD your God: you shall not have strange Gods before me.
  (2) Exodus 20:7 You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
  (3) Exodus 20:8-11 Remember to keep holy the LORD'S Day.
  (4) Exodus 20:12 Honor your father and your mother.
  (5) Exodus 20:13 You shall not kill.
  (6) Exodus 20:14 You shall not commit adultery.
  (7) Exodus 20:15 You shall not steal.
  (8) Exodus 20:16 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
  (9) Exodus 20:17a You shall not covet your neighbor's wife.
  (10) Exodus 20:17b You shall not covet your neighbor's goods.

See the difference?

For the detail, please read this:
http://www.geocities.com/gary_bee_za/bi ... dments.htm

 

[CatholicXian]

Gary, your post is misleading...

You claimed that Jews & Protestants order the 10 Commandments in the same way, yet, from your geocities site:

2. Prohibition of Improper Worship
This category is derived from Ex. 20:3-6, beginning, "You shall not have other gods..." It encompasses within it the prohibition against the worship of other gods as well as the prohibition of improper forms of worship of the one true God.

Thus, then the Jews also group "graven images" under "You shall not have any other gods...", which is the First Commandment and what Catholics also group under the First Commandment... because the next group of Commands for the Jews is "prohibition of oaths", or not taking the Lord's name in vain.

:-?

 

[Gary]

Thanks! :bday: I updated my post. My website is correct. I didn't want to copy it all..... but it is probably better that I did now.

Notice that the slightly different numbering of the chapter/verse from Torah to Old Testament.

 

[Gary]

My first and foremost question is: What do Catholics believe as in, how do they think they get to heaven?

This may help....

Faith and Works

Question: I went to Catholic school for 8 years and I was taught that Jesus died for us and that He redeemed us, but we have to do our part. We have to do things such as unite our sufferings with His. We have to do our share in the salvation process. This may all seem silly to you but these are things I and many other Catholics struggle with. The priests say that in the Protestant position there is no accountability: everyone who believes will go to heaven. How does that show God's justice? For example why should a person who lives a good life and another person who simply believes and continues to live an unchristian life, why should both go to heaven? That wouldn't seem fair.

Answer: I honestly appreciate what you are saying because as a former Roman Catholic I used to envision salvation in the same way. I was told Jesus died for us and that He redeemed us but - ah! that little word 'but' - we have to do our part, our share, unite our sufferings with His.

Logically the implication is that His death was, by itself, not enough to pay the debt of my sins. I had to offer some sacrifice myself to be completely forgiven. However, the Bible presents a different message:

• For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified...Their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more. Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin (Hebrews 9:15-18).

According to this Scripture, by whose offering is a person perfected and forgiven? Is there a need to offer some other offering for sin? Can we say, then, that I can unite my suffering with His in order to receive forgiveness? Or should I trust in His finished sacrifice?

Or, to tackle the subject from another perspective, do I go to heaven because I live a good life? No, I go to heaven because God is merciful to me. He gives me what I do not deserve (Heaven), and he spares me what I merit (Hell). All because of Jesus and not because of me.

Please read these two Bible verses carefully:

• For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast (Ephesians 2:8-9).
  
  Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us (Titus 3:5).

Salvation is not our work. It is the work of Another, Jesus Christ. A true Christian lives for the glory of the One who loves him with infinite love. Whoever truly believes will certainly live a righteous life because God gives him a new heart that appreciates God's goodness and mercy. Why is it that people can't imagine any another motive for living a good, responsible life, other then to gain merit for salvation?! Could one live righteously and do good works as an expression of heart-felt gratitude to Jesus Christ? For example, I love my parents very much. But I don't love them in order to gain some favor from them. I simply love them because I appreciate how much they suffered and worked hard for my sake. It is the same with the Christian's relation to his Saviour. "We love Him, because He first loved us" (1 John 4:19).

So as a Christian, I don't try to earn salvation by my works. I strive to live a righteously as the reasonable response to the mercy of God. It's my way of saying "Thank you!" On the other hand, he who "believes" and continues to live in sin is deceiving himself and remains lost in his sin no matter what he says.

Source: -here-

 

[Dave...]

"The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

This is blasphemy and is calling Jesus a liar.

 

[CatholicXian]

And Job is completely off topic... nor has he read the entire Catechism to get what that paragraph means IN CONTEXT.


Gary, thanks for fixing your post.
Secondly, your answer for 'what Catholics' believed about salvation didn't include any references to official documents of Catholicism (i.e., the Catechism, Canon Law, etc)... interesting.

 

[Gary]

Read RCC Canon Law to understand about salvation??!??! Come on..... get real.

I did not reference the CCC. As already discussed, it is even "thicker" (more pages) than the Bible! Why go the the CCC when you can go directly to the Bible?

I notice that you immediately say that someone takes the CCC out of context when they reference the blasphemous "plan of salvation" for Muslims.

"The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

I can honestly say that the RCC :bday: still does not understand Islam. The God of Abraham is not the author of evil. The "god" of the Quran, Allah, is the author of evil. :evil:

.

 

[CatholicXian]

Read RCC Canon Law to understand about salvation??!??! Come on..... get real.

Well... if you wanted to be absolutely thorough and demonstrate your "complete" knowledge of Catholicism.
It was just a suggestion/half joke...



The Catechism is only thicker than SOME translations of the Bible. I have plenty of translations that are thicker than the Catechism. Petty argument, and doesn't excuse laziness... if you're going to claim you know what Catholics believe perhaps you should back it up with some evidence from the source rather than throwing insults (like in other threads...), or being nit-picky about the thickness of books. Does thickness REALLY matter? I mean, it does have an index in the back.

 

[Gary]

Reading the whole CCC.... :bday:

• "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." RCC

This is blasphemy and is calling Jesus a liar.

Job is completely off topic... nor has he read the entire Catechism to get what that paragraph means IN CONTEXT.

LOL... now the appeal to "Read the entire Catechism." My appeal to Roman Catholics is to STUDY the whole Bible.

Job is NOT off topic. The topic is "Roman Catholics and salvation." Job introduced the blasphemous "plan for salvation" of Muslims which is part of the CCC. CatholicXian responds by saying.... "read the whole CCC."

In fact, reading the whole CCC is NOT enough. The particular quote comes from one of the Sixteen Documents of Vatican II. In this case, it comes from the Lumen Gentium (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church), chapter II, (On the people of God), paragraph 16.

The first error in this paragraph is that it calls Muslims "Mohamedans"!!!

If you ever want to insult a Muslim, call him a "Mohamedan"!!!

So my first suggestion CatholicXian is to READ all the Sixteen Documents of Vatican II, then the Quran and then the Hadith BEFORE you try and talk about "salvation plan" for Muslims!

I would also suggest that you inform the new pope :bday: that Muslims like to be called Muslims and not "Mohamedans".

Lastly, in your Bible, is God the author of evil? In the Quran, is Allah (of the Quran) the author of evil?

Once you have answered those questions, I will continue and show you further errors in the Lumen Gentium (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church).

 

[Dave...]

I guess my point was...The Father and the Son are one, to reject the Son is to reject the Father.