Celebrating Easter?

[Theofilus]

You have great points Theo, but using your way of thinking, we should still stone disobedient children and put them out of the city gate as in Deuteronomy 21:18-21.

please enlighten me.

The Bible doesn't say that "we" are to stone disobedient children. Niether are "we" to stone homosexuals, adulterers nor anyone else. It says that we are to establish courts (see, for example, Deu. 16:18). These courts are to decide what punisment someone recieves who has committed some violation. Just as it is with our laws today, the laws of the Bible include a maximum sentence. And, just like it is today, the maximum sentence wasn't nearly always applied. In fact, a sanhedrin that passed the death sentence once in seven years was considered murderous. The judges did everything they could to avoid sentensing people to death. Many Christians today talk as if Jews went around stoning each other all the time, but that was not the case at all.

Most churches teach that the Old Testament, and particularly the Law (books of Moses) have been done away with and are no longer necessary or even relevant to Christians today. As a result, very many, perhaps even most, Christians don't bother to read the Old Testament. There are exceptions, of course, and maybe you are one of them, but my experience is that most Christians know very little of what the OT says, especially the Law. I know one man who has been saved for over 30 years who told me last summer that he was at that time reading the books of Moses for the first time in his life. I myself had hardly read the Law at all until about 5 or 6 years ago, and I've been saved for over 37 years. There would be a lot fewer misunderstandings about both testaments and a lot less disagreement on many subjects, if Christians would just read the OT and understand what it actually says. The Old Testament is, after all, the foundation on which the New Testament was built, and the Law is the foundation of the Old Testament.

 

[Drew]

Most churches teach that the Old Testament, and particularly the Law (books of Moses) have been done away with and are no longer necessary or even relevant to Christians today.

I believe it is really quite clear that the Law of Moses has indeed been "retired". I believe there are many arguments in support of this position. Here is just one:

Texts such as this one from the prophet Isaiah hint that a time will come when the Law of Moses will indeed be set aside:

What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me?"
Says the LORD.
"I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
And the fat of fed cattle;
And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs or goats.
12"When you come to appear before Me,
Who requires of you this trampling of My courts?
13"Bring your worthless offerings no longer,
(Incense is an abomination to Me
New moon and sabbath, the calling of assemblies--
I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly.
14"I hate your new moon festivals and your appointed feasts,
They have become a burden to Me;
I am weary of bearing them.

The Law of Moses contains prescriptions for sabbath observance and for performing sacrifices. This text from Isaiah suggests that those practices will indeed come to an end.

As a result, very many, perhaps even most, Christians don't bother to read the Old Testament.

This may be true but the Law of Moses does not to remain in force for the Old Testament to be relevant.

 

[cleanfreak]

The Bible doesn't say that "we" are to stone disobedient children. Niether are "we" to stone homosexuals, adulterers nor anyone else. It says that we are to establish courts (see, for example, Deu. 16:18). These courts are to decide what punisment someone recieves who has committed some violation. Just as it is with our laws today, the laws of the Bible include a maximum sentence. And, just like it is today, the maximum sentence wasn't nearly always applied. In fact, a sanhedrin that passed the death sentence once in seven years was considered murderous. The judges did everything they could to avoid sentensing people to death. Many Christians today talk as if Jews went around stoning each other all the time, but that was not the case at all.

Most churches teach that the Old Testament, and particularly the Law (books of Moses) have been done away with and are no longer necessary or even relevant to Christians today. As a result, very many, perhaps even most, Christians don't bother to read the Old Testament. There are exceptions, of course, and maybe you are one of them, but my experience is that most Christians know very little of what the OT says, especially the Law. I know one man who has been saved for over 30 years who told me last summer that he was at that time reading the books of Moses for the first time in his life. I myself had hardly read the Law at all until about 5 or 6 years ago, and I've been saved for over 37 years. There would be a lot fewer misunderstandings about both testaments and a lot less disagreement on many subjects, if Christians would just read the OT and understand what it actually says. The Old Testament is, after all, the foundation on which the New Testament was built, and the Law is the foundation of the Old Testament.

.........more great points Theo, and I do not claim to know all there is to know about the O.T. thus, one of the reason I joined here.

You say the bible does not say to 'stone' the children. I may have paraphrased a bit in my post, but Deu. 21:18-21 seems to contradict you. I see you stated we are to "establish courts" as in Deu. 16:18, and I understand that likewise, but why avoid commenting on the particular scripture I posted?

As stated, I am here to learn so please teach me on Deu. 21:18-21. I have my pencil and paper ready.

 

[Drew]

I think it is helpful to consider this possibility (which I happen to believe is not simply a possibility, but the truth): The Bible depicts an unfolding narrative, a "story". As with any story, things do change. So we should not presume a priori that "what was true in the Old Testament" remains true to this very day.

 

[Theofilus]

God does not change, but the way in which He interacts with us OBVIOUSLY changed when Christ died. Have YOU offered a lamb on an alter lately?

Like I said in my previous post, people need to study the OT more. The Law says that we are only to offer sacrifices "in the place God chooses", i.e. the temple in Jerusalem. Since there is currently no temple, it would actually be a violation of the Law to offer sacrifices today.

QUOTE=Pizzaguy;508590] They are valid, we can learn from them, but we don't live under that old law anymore. And I DO think there is some idolatry in the church today, but I don't want to be specific as it will only cause division here.[/QUOTE]

It is often said that we don't live "under the law", but what does the Bible say?

To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (Is. 8:20 KJV)​

Jesus said:

Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.†(John 8:12 KJV)​

If Jesus spoke against (i.e. not "according to") the Law then, according to Isaiah, he had no light in him. That's something I think most Christians are not willing to accept. The implication of this is, of course, that Jesus spoke "according to the Law and the testemony", not against it. In fact, he said so himself.

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. )Matt. 5:17 NIV)

If the apostles spoke against the Law, after Jesus had been crucified, then that means that they had no light in them and were also speaking against Christ's own words.

Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. (Matt. 5:19 NIV)​

So, can you tell me exactly when we stopped living under the Law and who it was that had the authority to invalidate God's own words.

 

[Elijah674]

I believe it is really quite clear that the Law of Moses has indeed been "retired". I believe there are many arguments in support of this position. Here is just one:

Texts such as this one from the prophet Isaiah hint that a time will come when the Law of Moses will indeed be set aside:

What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me?"
Says the LORD.
"I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
And the fat of fed cattle;
And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs or goats.
12"When you come to appear before Me,
Who requires of you this trampling of My courts?
13"Bring your worthless offerings no longer,
(Incense is an abomination to Me
New moon and sabbath, the calling of assemblies--
I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly.
14"I hate your new moon festivals and your appointed feasts,
They have become a burden to Me;
I am weary of bearing them.

The Law of Moses contains prescriptions for sabbath observance and for performing sacrifices. This text from Isaiah suggests that those practices will indeed come to an end.


This may be true but the Law of Moses does not to remain in force for the Old Testament to be relevant.

And that is why you had the title of the thread with a question mark.

 

[Theofilus]

.........more great points Theo, and I do not claim to know all there is to know about the O.T. thus, one of the reason I joined here.

You say the bible does not say to 'stone' the children. I may have paraphrased a bit in my post, but Deu. 21:18-21 seems to contradict you. I see you stated we are to "establish courts" as in Deu. 16:18, and I understand that likewise, but why avoid commenting on the particular scripture I posted?

As stated, I am here to learn so please teach me on Deu. 21:18-21. I have my pencil and paper ready.

I thought I was commenting on it. I pointed out that the Bible doesn't tell "us" (note the quotes for emphasis) to execute anybody. From listening to some Christans talk (not just here, but in other forums and in real life), you would think that, according to the Law, anyone who caught someone committing adultery, for example, could just pick up some rocks and start throwing them. The ordinary people didn't carry out such sentences, just like it is today. We can't go around stoning people, because our laws forbid it, and the Bible tells us to obey the civil authorities. Even if our laws were based completely on the Bible, we still couldn't stone anybody without the judges first passing sentence.

But, even though the punishments prescribed by the Bible can't be implemented, we can live our personal lives according to God's word. Perhaps disobedient children won't be stoned, but parents can punish them in other ways, and they should still obey their parents. Homosexuals are not executed for being gay, but it's still a sin, and we should completely reject that lifestyle.

The Bible's moral code and Israel's civil law were, at least to begin with, one and the same, and I believe that will be the case again after Jesus returns. But that is not the case today. We do not live under a government or judicial system that bases all it's decisions on God's word, therefore we cannot implement the things in the Bible fully.

 

[cleanfreak]

So, can you tell me exactly when we stopped living under the Law and who it was that had the authority to invalidate God's own words.

Maybe Ephesians 2:14-15.

I read Mathew 5:17 and Luke 24:44 as the point Christ was trying to make that he himself came to fufill the law. The complete law which was fulfilled when he stated " it is finished" on the cross in John 19:30.

 

[Theofilus]

I believe it is really quite clear that the Law of Moses has indeed been "retired". I believe there are many arguments in support of this position. Here is just one:

Texts such as this one from the prophet Isaiah hint that a time will come when the Law of Moses will indeed be set aside:

What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me?"
Says the LORD.
"I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
And the fat of fed cattle;
And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs or goats.
12"When you come to appear before Me,
Who requires of you this trampling of My courts?
13"Bring your worthless offerings no longer,
(Incense is an abomination to Me
New moon and sabbath, the calling of assemblies--
I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly.
14"I hate your new moon festivals and your appointed feasts,
They have become a burden to Me;
I am weary of bearing them.

The Law of Moses contains prescriptions for sabbath observance and for performing sacrifices. This text from Isaiah suggests that those practices will indeed come to an end.

I don't think that text suggests that at all. Let's look at it in context. I've added some emphasis to show who God is speaking to.

1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
The Wickedness of Judah
2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth!
For the LORD has spoken:

“ I have nourished and brought up children,
And they have rebelled against Me;
3 The ox knows its owner
And the donkey its master’s crib;
But Israel does not know,
My people do not consider.â€
4 Alas, sinful nation,
A people laden with iniquity,
A brood of evildoers,
Children who are corrupters!
They have forsaken the LORD,
They have provoked to anger
The Holy One of Israel,
They have turned away backward.
5 Why should you be stricken again?
You will revolt more and more.
The whole head is sick,
And the whole heart faints.
6 From the sole of the foot even to the head,
There is no soundness in it,
But wounds and bruises and putrefying sores;
They have not been closed or bound up,
Or soothed with ointment.
7 Your country is desolate,
Your cities are burned with fire;
Strangers devour your land in your presence;
And it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers.
8 So the daughter of Zion is left as a booth in a vineyard,
As a hut in a garden of cucumbers,
As a besieged city.
9 Unless the LORD of hosts
Had left to us a very small remnant,
We would have become like Sodom,
We would have been made like Gomorrah.
10 Hear the word of the LORD,
You rulers of Sodom;
Give ear to the law of our God,
You people of Gomorrah:
11 “ To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me?â€
Says the LORD. (Is. 1:1-11 KJV)​

God is here speaking to disobedient people. He's speaking to people who "have a form of godliness", but their lives are far from godly. Imagine a person who goes to church every Sunday, but the rest of the week he's cheating on his wife, getting drunk and beating his wife and children senseless. That's the kind of person this is talking about. Such "holiness" is worthless to God. If you don't walk the walk, talking the talk means nothing.

 

[cleanfreak]

I thought I was commenting on it. I pointed out that the Bible doesn't tell "us" (note the quotes for emphasis) to execute anybody. From listening to some Christans talk (not just here, but in other forums and in real life), you would think that, according to the Law, anyone who caught someone committing adultery, for example, could just pick up some rocks and start throwing them. The ordinary people didn't carry out such sentences, just like it is today. We can't go around stoning people, because our laws forbid it, and the Bible tells us to obey the civil authorities. Even if our laws were based completely on the Bible, we still couldn't stone anybody without the judges first passing sentence.

But, even though the punishments prescribed by the Bible can't be implemented, we can live our personal lives according to God's word. Perhaps disobedient children won't be stoned, but parents can punish them in other ways, and they should still obey their parents. Homosexuals are not executed for being gay, but it's still a sin, and we should completely reject that lifestyle.

The Bible's moral code and Israel's civil law were, at least to begin with, one and the same, and I believe that will be the case again after Jesus returns. But that is not the case today. We do not live under a government or judicial system that bases all it's decisions on God's word, therefore we cannot implement the things in the Bible fully.

So basically, because our current judicial system does not line up with the word of God, it is OK to not follow it. This is good news, as there is no law about celebrating Easter in our country either.

On another note, when is the last time anyone took their children to 'the courts' because they were disobedient to see what punishment they shall be given?

*currently looking for the best lamb to take to my local priest for offering*

 

[Pizzaguy]

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. )Matt. 5:17 NIV)

Why didn't you emphasiza "Fulfill them"?
He fulfilled the law.

So, can you tell me exactly when we stopped living under the Law and who it was that had the authority to invalidate God's own words.

At the instant Christ said, "it is finished" and died.

Christ did it, He did not invalidate God's word, he fulfilled it.

 

[Pizzaguy]

So basically, because our current judicial system does not line up with the word of God, it is OK to not follow it. This is good news, as there is no law about celebrating Easter in our country either.

On another note, when is the last time anyone took their children to 'the courts' because they were disobedient to see what punishment they shall be given?

*currently looking for the best lamb to take to my local priest for offering*

I think we are wasting our time, Theo will never change his mind, neither will you or I.

I guess the discussion is for the judge. Who is the judge? Every person who wonders what to believe, reads the thread - and decides which of us is right - or MORE right, than the others. ;)

 

[cleanfreak]

I think we are wasting our time, Theo will never change his mind, neither will you or I.

I guess the discussion is for the judge. Who is the judge? Every person who wonders what to believe, reads the thread - and decides which of us is right - or MORE right, than the others. ;)

correct you are methinks :D

BTW---Griffin is a nice place. I enjoy it every time I visit....but I believe it is spelled Georgia ;)

cheers

 

[Drew]

God is here speaking to disobedient people. He's speaking to people who "have a form of godliness", but their lives are far from godly. Imagine a person who goes to church every Sunday, but the rest of the week he's cheating on his wife, getting drunk and beating his wife and children senseless. That's the kind of person this is talking about. Such "holiness" is worthless to God. If you don't walk the walk, talking the talk means nothing.

God is talking to the nation of Israel as a whole and is implying that the time of festivals and sacrifices (read: Law of Moses) is coming to an end. He is certainly not speaking to humanity in general, but to Jews.

I am really quite surprised that anyone would try to make the case that the Law of Moses is still in force - unless that person is prepared to dismiss Paul. Here is one of several clear statements that the Law of Moses has been abolished.

From Ephesians 2:

For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations

Paul is making an argument about how Jew and Gentile are now one because the barrier between them has been set aside.

What is that barrier? Obviously, the Law of Moses which functioned to separate Jew from Gentile.

 

[Theofilus]

So basically, because our current judicial system does not line up with the word of God, it is OK to not follow it. This is good news, as there is no law about celebrating Easter in our country either.

On another note, when is the last time anyone took their children to 'the courts' because they were disobedient to see what punishment they shall be given?

*currently looking for the best lamb to take to my local priest for offering*

I've already answered this, but since you're only "defense" of your views is to twist my words and put words in my mouth, welcome to my ignore list. I first joined a Christian forum in the spring of 2004. Until I joined this forum (last summer) a grand total of 1 (count them... ONE!) person ever made it to my ignore list. You are number 13 on this site. Of those, only one is a non-Christian. All of them are on my ignore list for the same reason - insults, insinuations and twisting my words, as you do.

In fact... Skipt the ignore list. I'm sick and tired of the hypocrits here. As soon as I've posted this, I'm going to ask a moderator to delete my account.

 

[Free]

Locked pending moderator review and clean-up. 2