Charismatic Bible Studies - 2 Peter 1:19-21

[Hidden In Him]

End-Time Prophecies, And Satan's Endless Attempts To Discredit Them



As covered in the last study, knowing that the Gnostics were the heretics Peter was specifically refuting in this letter is crucial to understanding what he was saying, and that goes for our next passage as well. There were two kinds of prophecy now going forth in the churches; one that taught the prophecies of the Old Testament were true and that the wrath of God was still coming, and another that said the literal interpretation was false, and that "the Day of the Lord" had already come. This was a lie concocted by the Devil, of course, but it was now being used by servants of Satan to dissuade believers from walking in the fear of God. But as Peter would now say, it was the leadership of the church who had the more sure word of prophecy, and all would do well trust in it "until the Daystar arose within their hearts" as well, and confirmed it through the witness of the Spirit within them.

19 And we have the more sure prophetic word, which you do well taking heed to, as to a lamp shining in a dark place until the day should dawn, and the Daystar should arise within your hearts; 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture was subject to private interpretation, 21 for prophecy was never borne by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were being moved by the Holy Spirit. (2 Peter 1:19-21)

Peter's point was that only those with the Holy Spirit could accurately understand Biblical prophecy, for it was revealed by the Spirit alone. And as Jude stated, the Gnostics did not have the Holy Spirit (Jude 1:19). They were nevertheless "prophesying" in the churches and deceiving the faithful, as is evidenced from the Book of Revelations. The Lord rebuked Jezebel in the church at Thyatira for calling herself a prophetess, and yet "teaching My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols."

19 I know your works, love, service, faith, and your patience... 20 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel who calls herself a prophetess to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality and she did not repent. 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great affliction unless they repent of their deeds. 23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works. 24 Now I say to you and to the rest in Thyatira, as many as do not have this doctrine, and who have not known "the deep things of Satan," as they say, I will put no other burden upon you. (Revelations 2:19-24).

Committing sexual immorality and eating meat sacrificed to idols were what the Gnostics were notorious for, which means she with virtual certainty was one. Yet some were apparently giving heed to her prophecies because the leadership in that church had not removed her. The Lord was now having to do it Himself. But if she was teaching "the deep things of Satan," it is safe to assume the things she was prophesying were coming from demonic spirts as well.

What, then, was she prophesying? We have evidence from Gnostic manuscripts what they taught and believed, and Gnostic prophecy ran 100% contrary to what the Spirit of God was teaching. They contended that the "Day of the Lord" had already come in a spiritual sense, and that prophecies about the fearful judgments of God coming upon the earth were not to be taken literally. But the apostle Paul warned that this teaching was false, and that the Gnostics were actually impersonating them by falsifying letters in the apostle's names in order to sell this lie, telling the Thessalonians in one place:

We implore you, brothers, by the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him, not to become quickly disturbed in mind nor troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as if written by us, intimating that the Day of the Lord has come. No one should deceive you in any way if the apostasy has not yet come first and that man of lawlessness has been revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above everything that is called God or is worshipped, so as for him to sit down in the temple of God, exhibiting himself that he is God. Do you not remember that when I was with you I was telling you these things? And you now know the prevailing expectation is for him to be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already on its way to realization, only he is holding back at present until he manifests out of the midst, and then shall that Lawless one be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus Christ will consume with the breath of His mouth, and depose with the brightness of His coming. (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8)

Paul was here referring to the fact that the Gnostics were sending out fake letters written in the name of the apostles but actually written by them, something confirmed by early church records and modern archeology. Numerous writings have been unearthed in the last century like the Gospel of Thomas, the Secret Book of James, the Acts of Peter and the Twelve Apostles, the Secret Gospel of Mark, the Apocryphon of John and others which bear the apostle's names yet do not resemble their teachings. The content is clearly Gnostic in places, making it obvious they are forgeries. And early church writers attest this was a habit the Gnostics in particular were engaging in. Writing in the 2nd century, Ireneaus stated, "Besides the above misrepresentations, they adduce an unspeakable number of apocryphal and spurious writings, which they themselves have forged, to bewilder the minds of foolish men, and of such as are ignorant of the scriptures of truth." (Against Heresies, XX, 1). The word "apocryphal" here came from the Greek word ἀπόκρυφος, which meant “hidden” or "secret." It referred to works which were of dubious authenticity.

So why is all this important? History will repeat itself, and the Gnostics will again arise in the earth to practice witchcraft while "prophesying" lies. The false Christs prophesied to come will with virtual certainty come from this same school of heresy and resurrect these ancient lies again, seeking to depict them as true "Christianity." But such teachings will be no more credible than when the Devil first conjured them into existence during New Testament times.


The More Sure Word

Satan always attacks any teaching that instills the fear of God in men. Always. This goes for teachings on Hell as well, and it's because Satan knows that as long as men still fear God, they cannot simply disregard Him to pursue their own pleasures in life instead. So these "prophecies" of the Gnostics were specifically designed to lure the faithful away from the fear of God. Yet the apostle Peter himself declared on the day of Pentecost that prophecies concerning the Day of the Lord were true and still coming to pass, in confirming the Old Testament prophet Joel as the Spirit gave him utterance:

14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them... “This is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17 ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days,' says God, 'that I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh... and I will show wonders in heaven above and signs in the earth beneath; blood and fire and vapor of smoke. 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and awesome Day of the Lord. (Joel 2:14, 17-20)

Joel himself prophesied about the Day of the Lord, as did Isaiah before him, declaring:

Wail, for the Day of the Lord is at hand! It will come as destruction from the Almighty. Therefore all hands will be limp, every man’s heart will melt, and they will be afraid. Pangs and sorrows will take hold of them. They will be in pain as a woman in childbirth... Behold, the Day of the Lord comes, cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate. And He will destroy its sinners from it. For the stars of heaven and their constellations will not give their light. The sun will be darkened in its going forth, and the moon will not cause its light to shine. “I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity. I will halt the arrogance of the proud, and lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. I will make a mortal more rare than fine gold, a man more than the golden wedge of Ophir. I will shake the heavens, and the earth will move out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of His fierce anger. (Isaiah 13:6-13)

Despite the Gnostic claims that Christ prophesied something entirely different, our Lord reiterated these prophecies Himself in the Book of Revelation, proclaiming them to be literal when He had John write:

I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake. And the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great Day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?" (Revelation 6:12-17)

 

[Hidden In Him]

So how will the Gnostics refute these teachings in the end-times? Peter warned us prophetically, saying they will argue, "If the Day of the Lord is coming, then where is it?"

2 Be mindful of the words which were spoken beforehand by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that mockers will come in the last days, walking in accordance with their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” (2 Peter 3:3-4)

Concerning phrases like the "heavens being shaken," the Gnostics simply spiritualized them away. They twisted things to say that the Old Testament God (i.e. "Yaldabaoth") would/ will "fall from the heavens" with his angels after they were exposed for their wickedness, and fight one another until they destroyed each other. This "prophetic" fabrication was described in detail in a Gnostic document entitled On The Origin Of The World, which reads as follows:

Now the prime parent Yaldabaoth created heavens for each of his offspring... and when the heavens had consolidated themselves along with their forces and all their administration, the prime parent became insolent. And he was honored by all the army of angels. And all the gods and their angels gave blessing and honor to him. And for his part, he was delighted and continually boasted, saying to them, "I have no need of anyone." He said, "It is I who am God, and there is no other one that exists apart from me"... But before the consummation of the age, the whole place will shake with great thundering. Then the rulers will be sad, [and mourn] their death. The angels will mourn for their mankind, and the demons will weep over their seasons, and their mankind will wail and scream at their death. Then the age will begin... and they will be obliterated because of their wickedness. For they will come to be like volcanoes and consume one another until they perish at the hand of the prime parent. When he has destroyed them, he will turn against himself and destroy himself until he ceases to exist. And their heavens will fall one upon the next and their forces will be consumed by fire.

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/origin.html

Seeking The Daystar

Humanity will again be presented with these lies in the end-times. Gnosticism is now making a come back through which Satan will again claim that the Old Testament prophets were frauds, and the God of the Old Testament is/ was just a blowhard making empty threats. They will argue, "If doomsday is coming then where is it?" and teach a spiritualized version instead that seduces men back into sin by invalidating the need to walk in the fear of God. This seems ridiculous to those who are educated in the word. The sad thing, however, is that an increasing number of Christians are becoming less knowledgeable in the word with each passing generation, and as a result of being taught very little in the word will be vulnerable to being deceived by those who come manifesting great signs and wonders through the power of Satan. It is something Jesus Himself warned would be coming before the end:

11. Many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold... 23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the vultures will be gathered together. 29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matthew 24:11-12, 23-31)

As servants to these false Christs, their followers will say "He is in the wilderness," or "He is in the secret chambers." But none of this will be true, for the Son of Man will appear in the sky as lightning shining from East to West, and any supposed "Christ" who manifests as a mere mortal man will be proven false, for he will die in the flesh after gathering unto himself vultures who spiritually fed on his unclean teachings.

A close look at early church history reveals some of the Gnostic leaders like Simon the magician actually qualified as false Christs in Peter's time. But he advised his readers to adhere to apostolic teaching, "as a lamp shining in a dark place, until the daystar arises in your hearts." The meaning here was to seek Christ Himself for accurate prophetic understanding of what was coming in the end-times, until they were no longer just taking the apostles word for it but knew within their own hearts what was coming because Christ Himself was revealing things to them just as He did to the apostles. The analogy was of the planet Venus, commonly referred to as the Daystar or morning star because it arose just before daybreak, and thus "prophesied" or signaled that the night was almost over and the "Day" was now about to dawn. By comparison, when the Holy Spirit fully opened their eyes to Biblical prophecy, they would know "the Day of the Lord" was coming with certainty, and no false prophet or false Christ would be able to dissuade them otherwise.


Questions and Applications

1. What thoughts came to mind in reading through this study? Do remember anything in particular jumping out?

2. Do you consider yourself educated in Biblical prophecy? If not, why so? Have you ever attempted to study it in any detail?

3. Think of the Christians you know - maybe younger family or church members. How many believers today do you think could recognize truth from falsehood? How many don't have much foundation in the word and might be deceived if someone moved in great demonic gifts?

4. If you encountered a Gnostic on one of the Christian forums and they presented spiritualized prophecies like the ones above, what would your answers be?

5. How would you answer the following cult? It is led by a woman named Ching Hai, who cites prophecies from cultures ancient and modern, including those cited in this study, to declare we are about to enter a "golden age" soon.

The Nag Hammadi library gives precious insights into the doctrines of Christ’s followers, before the current Christian church and Bible came into being. The early Christians are also known as Gnostics, because they emphasized the importance of “gnosis,” meaning the direct personal knowledge of God for one’s salvation. The Gnostic writings reveal that gnosis involved sacred higher teachings from Lord Jesus, which were transmitted in secret only to the worthy. Such a direct experience of the Divine, as Supreme Master Ching Hai has told us, is essential to gaining true spiritual understanding...

“Before the consummation of the age, the whole place will be shaken by great thunder. Then the rulers will lament, crying out on account of their death. The archons (lower gods) will mourn for their human beings"... The archons are lower gods that govern the human world. They were produced by the Creator god who created the physical realm. However, the time will come when “the archons will mourn for their human beings” that they controlled, plus they will lament their own deaths. Then the time of consummation will begin. We believe that this has come true, with the advent of the Great Savior of our time, Supreme Master Ching Hai. Her presence truly clears away the demons and shakes every corner as if “by great thunder,” as witnessed by one of our Association members.

Like Gnostics who will follow the same pattern, she declares herself to be a god. References to her are always in capital letters, and her supposed abilities clearly identify her as godlike.

The Savior will descend from a higher Power that is above all the powers of this shadow universe. We think this again refers to Supreme Master Ching Hai’s Power which She has brought down from the Original Universe. This place, the prophecy also says, is “where the firmament of the Woman is situated” ... Similarly, we know that Supreme Master Ching Hai, who originally came from the Highest Source, also passes through different Heavenly Universes and Levels. And before, She would sometimes “rest” in certain Heavens, such as the Fifth Level, in between entering our material world.

https://suprememastertv.com/en1/v/139263056106.html

 

[JLB]

As covered in the last study, knowing that the Gnostics were the heretics Peter was specifically refuting in this letter is crucial to understanding what he was saying, and that goes for our next passage as well. There were two kinds of prophecy now going forth in the churches; one that taught the prophecies of the Old Testament were true and that the wrath of God was still coming, and another that said the literal interpretation was false, and that "the Day of the Lord" had already come. This was a lie concocted by the Devil, of course, but it was now being used by servants of Satan to dissuade believers from walking in the fear of God. But as Peter would now say, it was the leadership of the church who had the more sure word of prophecy, and all would do well trust in it "until the Daystar arose within their hearts" as well, and confirmed it through the witness of the Spirit within them.

Yes, Preterist's teach that the coming of the Lord is past.

This is a dangerous and false teaching because it leads people to believe the resurrection is past, in which some have departed from the faith, because their faith has become overthrown over such things.

But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. 2 Timothy 2:16-18

 

[Hidden In Him]

Yes, Preterist's teach that the coming of the Lord is past.

This is a dangerous and false teaching because it leads people to believe the resurrection is past, in which some have departed from the faith, because their faith has become overthrown over such things.

But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. 2 Timothy 2:16-18

Excellent point. I remember we used to have a prominent one here for a good while.

2nd Timothy was also written in refutation of the Gnostics, btw. Paul made reference to Jannas and Jambras, Pharaoh's occult magicians who for a time were matching the miracles of God yet couldn't keep up. The Gnostics were the same, and they loved entering into women's houses and amazing them with displays of witchcraft, but this too was nothing compared to the works of God being made manifest through the church.

6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith; 9 but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was. (2 Timothy 3:6-9)

 

[RandyK]

So how will the Gnostics refute these teachings in the end-times? Peter warned us prophetically, saying they will argue, "If the Day of the Lord is coming, then where is it?"

The Gnostic teachings were largely destroyed. What remains, however, is the response the Church Fathers made to their errors and perversions.

I think they created a dualism between the spiritual realm and the physical realm. Since only genuine Christian spirituality is superior to the power of sin, all hope in humanity is in a false spirituality combined with a form of legalism.

True Christianity, however, is not legalistic, and declares a freedom that not only is able to stop Sin's power, but is also able to produce a new spirituality emanating from Christ himself.

2 Be mindful of the words which were spoken beforehand by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that mockers will come in the last days, walking in accordance with their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” (2 Peter 3:3-4)

Concerning phrases like the "heavens being shaken," the Gnostics simply spiritualized them away. They twisted things to say that the Old Testament God (i.e. "Yaldabaoth") would/ will "fall from the heavens" with his angels after they were exposed for their wickedness, and fight one another until they destroyed each other. This "prophetic" fabrication was described in detail in a Gnostic document entitled On The Origin Of The World, which reads as follows:

There are powers in the heavens just as there are powers on earth. The powers in the heavens are called "angels," and their rebellion has to fall just as evil rulers on earth have to fall. That's why, I believe, the Prophets depict the heavens as "falling," so to speak. It is a picture of the fall of Satan and his demons.

The sad thing, however, is that an increasing number of Christians are becoming less knowledgeable in the word with each passing generation, and as a result of being taught very little in the word will be vulnerable to being deceived by those who come manifesting great signs and wonders through the power of Satan. It is something Jesus Himself warned would be coming before the end...

There certainly are! I have former Christian friends who were truly "born again," who have turned away from living an active Christian life. Some of them completely deny Christian truth anymore, and some openly engage in sins like paganism and adultery/fornication.

They were not taught, properly, to endure suffering and persecution. When things went "south" for them, they went on to follow the next best thing. Or, their bitterness enabled them to justify indulging their rage and sin lust, out of open contempt for what God let them go through.

This is why I'm a Postribulationist and a Premillennialist. For me, these schools prepare us for realistic expectations--suffering, to some degree, along with divine blessings. But no paradise until Christ comes again.

But I invite people to think for themselves. Any spouse who follows their mate, and any student who follows their teacher simply must learn to fight for themselves. Otherwise, the time will come when they have nothing to stand on but their own faith.

Questions and Applications

1. What thoughts came to mind in reading through this study? Do remember anything in particular jumping out?

I will state in my next post.

2. Do you consider yourself educated in Biblical prophecy? If not, why so? Have you ever attempted to study it in any detail?

Yes. Have been interested in eschatology life-long.

3. Think of the Christians you know - maybe younger family or church members. How many believers today do you think could recognize truth from falsehood? How many don't have much foundation in the word and might be deceived if someone moved in great demonic gifts?

I once thought I was solid, but found myself in a Christian cult, where aberrant teaching was being taught. I was devastated to think I was so vulnerable, once I got out. But God used it to prompt me to pursue studies in apologetis and Christian history for the rest of my life.

If I can fall, after being educated in Christianity and actually walking in it for some time, anybody can be fooled. We need to encourage one another to study, and help leaders fine-tune their beliefs.

4. If you encountered a Gnostic on one of the Christian forums and they presented spiritualized prophecies like the ones above, what would your answers be?

Gnostics don't talk about what Jesus means to them. They talk philosophy and revelation. They talk "about" truth, rather than declare truth. Their spiritual experience does not match the Christian experience conveyed in the Bible. It is counterfeit, and it is unhinged. There is nothing provided by which to judge its truthfulness, like we have the Scriptures to keep us grounded.

5. How would you answer the following cult? It is led by a woman named Ching Hai, who cites prophecies from cultures ancient and modern, including those cited in this study, to declare we are about to enter a "golden age" soon.

A half truth is more dangerous than a blatant lie. Visions from the Dark Side often see some truths and produce a semblance of reality. But it is a hook by which to pull you into the darkness. That's what this masquerader does.

 

[RandyK]

End-Time Prophecies, And Satan's Endless Attempts To Discredit Them

There were two kinds of prophecy now going forth in the churches; one that taught the prophecies of the Old Testament were true and that the wrath of God was still coming, and another that said the literal interpretation was false, and that "the Day of the Lord" had already come.

Just to be clear, God's wrath, in a more general sense, is already here. But the endtime Day of Wrath is still future--an event that will end rule by dark forces in this world for a thousand years, and into eternity.

You will read in several places in the Scriptures that God's wrath is already being visited upon men and nations who resist God's purposes to the point where God will no longer tolerate it. They are then brought under judgment. Many nations have come under such judgment, and not just Israel.

19 And we have the more sure prophetic word, which you do well taking heed to, as to a lamp shining in a dark place until the day should dawn, and the Daystar should arise within your hearts; 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture was subject to private interpretation, 21 for prophecy was never borne by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were being moved by the Holy Spirit. (2 Peter 1:19-21)

Very true! If we have within our heart the Spirit and the truth, we will know how to judge all things. If we cultivate our spiritual life, and grow it, we will be better prepared for the lies that hit us in the face. In fact, we will be less led by emotions and the mind, and more led by the Spirit of God and His love.

What, then, was she prophesying? We have evidence from Gnostic manuscripts what they taught and believed, and Gnostic prophecy ran 100% contrary to what the Spirit of God was teaching. They contended that the "Day of the Lord" had already come in a spiritual sense, and that prophecies about the fearful judgments of God coming upon the earth were not to be taken literally. But the apostle Paul warned that this teaching was false, and that the Gnostics were actually impersonating them by falsifying letters in the apostle's names in order to sell this lie, telling the Thessalonians in one place:

The spirit of "secularism" in our day conveys the notion that we live in a material world that is more predicted by science than by the word of God. It is an effort to disbelieve God's word and to live without fear of judgment for our unrighteous acts.

We implore you, brothers, by the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him, not to become quickly disturbed in mind nor troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as if written by us, intimating that the Day of the Lord has come.

The Scriptures show us that Jesus taught Jewish believers can expect to be restored to a believing Jewish nation, Israel. But they are 1st caught up to heaven to be glorified so that they can reign from heaven with the Lord, making peace upon the earth.

Anyway, that's the way I see it. Paul advanced this teaching to include the entire Gentile Church. We will all be gathered to various nations to reign in the name of Christ for a thousand years (the Millennial teaching comes from John in the Revelation).

But deception precedes the Return of Christ for his Church. There will be movements on earth pretending that judgment will not come from heaven. Instead, the emphasis will be on wordly conflicts done in the name of God.

That's what happened in Jesus' generation. False Jewish teachers proclaimed that God will fight with the Jews if they resist the Romans, whereas God actually was sending the Roman army as a judgment against their sins!

Similarlly, we need to avoid getting too connected to political movements that may be mixed--some containing godly truths and some containing devilish ideas. We need to keep a level head as we vote and pray for our political leaders.

Brother, you have put so much into this that I can't do it justice! Great work! It inspired so many thoughts in me, but I just can't express them all in one place. Thanks much!

 

[Hidden In Him]

The Gnostic teachings were largely destroyed. What remains, however, is the response the Church Fathers made to their errors and perversions.

I think they created a dualism between the spiritual realm and the physical realm. Since only genuine Christian spirituality is superior to the power of sin, all hope in humanity is in a false spirituality combined with a form of legalism.

True Christianity, however, is not legalistic, and declares a freedom that not only is able to stop Sin's power, but is also able to produce a new spirituality emanating from Christ himself.

Wow. Lot of response here.


Here is what's going on (our should I say has been going on) in our time, Randy. Most of the original forms of Gnosticism the early church contended against were not legalistic but the opposite. As Peter will say in Chapter 2, they were "promising them freedom (from sexual laws) but themselves being slaves of moral corruption." But over time, Satan led later Gnostics to morph the religion into this kind of self-superior, more spiritual version where they didn't engage in any of the sins of the flesh, because they were as you say, "far more spiritual." But this was a later development. The early versions were anything but legalistic. They were rabidly sinful, and very anti-law with regard to true Christianity, and this is the version we see starting to resurface now with increasing intensity.

There are powers in the heavens just as there are powers on earth. The powers in the heavens are called "angels," and their rebellion has to fall just as evil rulers on earth have to fall. That's why, I believe, the Prophets depict the heavens as "falling," so to speak. It is a picture of the fall of Satan and his demons.

Yes Well what they did was invert the Biblical teaching here to say that it was God and His angels who will fall, when scripture says it is Satan and his angels who will (Revelations 12:7-12).

There certainly are! I have former Christian friends who were truly "born again," who have turned away from living an active Christian life. Some of them completely deny Christian truth anymore, and some openly engage in sins like paganism and adultery/fornication.

They were not taught, properly, to endure suffering and persecution. When things went "south" for them, they went on to follow the next best thing. Or, their bitterness enabled them to justify indulging their rage and sin lust, out of open contempt for what God let them go through.

This is why I'm a Postribulationist and a Premillennialist. For me, these schools prepare us for realistic expectations--suffering, to some degree, along with divine blessings. But no paradise until Christ comes again.

But I invite people to think for themselves. Any spouse who follows their mate, and any student who follows their teacher simply must learn to fight for themselves. Otherwise, the time will come when they have nothing to stand on but their own faith.

And it's very sad. I think the main reason is because they didn't press in like Jesus warned they would need to in the Parable of the Sower. I dug in hard when I got saved, and I put the word down in me deeply, so there were no tricks the Devil could use on me later on. I mean, he tried, but I knew all the things to be prepared for.

And I'm not sure I understand not having a deep love for the word. That's really at the heart of it I think. Maybe for some it seemed too difficult to understand, and they didn't have a teacher to help? But you keep pressing in.

Trying to amend that in our time, Randy, and take what might be tougher to understand and make it easier, so that those who read this stuff can follow along with what's being said on a more educational level without getting bored or confused by "scholarship," and your responses are helping, so thanks for that. Gonna get to your responses to the more formal questions in awhile.

Blessings!
- H

 

[Hidden In Him]

Yes. Have been interested in eschatology life-long.

Cool! LoL. Now is the time, cuz not everyone actually is, and I like good intelligent discussion on it.

And I could say I've largely been a life-long student as well, although I have never forced myself to understand how certain prophecies fit, like you were saying. I didn't get so insistent on knowing it all that I began trying to force every passage on prophecy into a systematic package. That's something I think people should let come to them or you can get things skewed by assuming one passage was about one thing when it was actually about something else. As I was saying in the study, all accurate revelation on prophecy comes from the Daystar Himself, and wait on His timing to reveal things. So it behooves us to seek Him regarding all of it. But this is a good time to get back into it. I did a set of studies on 1 Thessalonians that dealt quite heavily with prophecy as well, so maybe I will rewrite those for publication soon (maybe).

I once thought I was solid, but found myself in a Christian cult, where aberrant teaching was being taught. I was devastated to think I was so vulnerable, once I got out. But God used it to prompt me to pursue studies in apologetis and Christian history for the rest of my life.

If I can fall, after being educated in Christianity and actually walking in it for some time, anybody can be fooled. We need to encourage one another to study, and help leaders fine-tune their beliefs.

Wonderful honest answer, Randy. I was fairly educated in the word when I got sucked into Word of Faith. There are a few things they have correct, actually, so I don't regard it as a waste of time investing in the theology. But wow did some of them go off the deep end. I got deeper into Copeland when I started realizing, "Ok what now?..." Some of the stuff he was teaching was just incredibly heretical when I stopped and actually opened my eyes and realized what he was saying.

It happens when we have still not become fully established in our own understanding of the word and are still looking to leaders to instruct us in what it means. That's why I prefer verse by verse study. When someone teaches you genuine verse by verse, you're no longer so wide open to these sweeping, wildly off-base interpretations that make absolutely no sense in context. But if you don't know the context (either historical or textual) how can you tell?

Need to take a break again. Will catch up to the rest in awhile.

Blessings!

 

[RandyK]

Cool! LoL. Now is the time, cuz not everyone actually is, and I like good intelligent discussion on it.

And I could say I've largely been a life-long student as well, although I have never forced myself to understand how certain prophecies fit, like you were saying. I didn't get so insistent on knowing it all that I began trying to force every passage on prophecy into a systematic package. That's something I think people should let come to them or you can get things skewed by assuming one passage was about one thing when it was actually about something else. As I was saying in the study, all accurate revelation on prophecy comes from the Daystar Himself, and wait on His timing to reveal things. So it behooves us to seek Him regarding all of it. But this is a good time to get back into it. I did a set of studies on 1 Thessalonians that dealt quite heavily with prophecy as well, so maybe I will rewrite those for publication soon (maybe).


Wonderful honest answer, Randy. I was fairly educated in the word when I got sucked into Word of Faith. There are a few things they have correct, actually, so I don't regard it as a waste of time investing in the theology. But wow did some of them go off the deep end. I got deeper into Copeland when I started realizing, "Ok what now?..." Some of the stuff he was teaching was just incredibly heretical when I stopped and actually opened my eyes and realized what he was saying.

It happens when we have still not become fully established in our own understanding of the word and are still looking to leaders to instruct us in what it means. That's why I prefer verse by verse study. When someone teaches you genuine verse by verse, you're no longer so wide open to these sweeping, wildly off-base interpretations that make absolutely no sense in context. But if you don't know the context (either historical or textual) how can you tell?

Need to take a break again. Will catch up to the rest in awhile.

Blessings!

Yes, many years ago I was into the word of faith as well. Over time I realized I was just fooling myself, because often God said no to my prayers of "want." He gives us, 1st of all, what we need or what He wants to give us--not what we claim is our due! ;)

I started out donating to Oral Roberts many years ago--back then there were no Christian TV networks and most of the early Pentecostal preachers I listened to at church and on the radio were "Faith Teachers."

I agree that there's a lot of good in their teaching--it's just excessive. I later wrote Copeland and suggested he may have a Gift of Faith that works for him more often than it does for others who are not led in that kind of ministry.

Recently I discovered that as much as Copeland made in dollars he gave away a lot of money too. So I won't spend all day berating him--I will just oppose his excess. I certainly don't want to stop people from believing in either their prayers or in what God tells them to believe for. As Oral Roberts used to teach, "God is a good God."

Please don't be offended if I share personal beliefs in biblical prophecy that rub you a little wrong. Many of my beliefs are based on a very broad assortment of sources that sometimes go back many centuries. I, for example, get some of my beliefs from the Church Fathers. I get some of my beliefs frrom the Reformers. I get some of my beliefs even from the Catholics, and certainly some from today's Pentecostals.

But as you suggest, when we go slowly and methodically through the Bible, verse by verse, we can't stray too far. It's just a matter of being a bit scholarly and understanding the context. I've spent years doing this, and will never, in this lifetime, feel "I've arrived." There's too much to know, and there are always new issues.

And quite frankly, I never feel I've completely "grown up" because there is always a smattering of sin in my life, which my wife is all too willing to remind me of. ;) Of course, I'm not talking about the big, serious sins, but about the little provocative things I do when I'm grumpy and impatient. Those sins are still serious enough to hurt somebody and destroy my witness to Christ. Later....

 

[Johann!@#]

Trying to amend that in our time, Randy, and take what might be tougher to understand and make it easier, so that those who read this stuff can follow along with what's being said on a more educational level without getting bored or confused by "scholarship," and your responses are helping, so thanks for that. Gonna get to your responses to the more formal questions in awhile.

Looks like I’m out before I even got started-especially with that bit about “boredom and confusion by scholarship,” right, brother? Like you, I’ve been doing verse-by-verse study for years now, alongside a professor in hermeneutics-Bob Utley-a man I deeply appreciate.

But I’ll step back here, since I don’t want to derail the thread.

Johann.

 

[RandyK]

I've just spent a little time reading 1 and 2 Peter, and recognize his warnings that in this study we are concerned with. Peter recommends attention to apostolic Scriptures and teachings, and warns against those who circumvent both the teaching and the practice of Christian values.

I did an historical survey many years ago, with respect to Christian historical development, and recognized that heresy began with the notion that "people don't really change." Of course, as Christians the 1st thing we recognize is change! We find a newness of life, a renewed mind, and a heart that is interested in fellowship with God. We are focused upon God's will, and not on our own carnal interests.

But in history we can see this development of an agnostic viewpoint in which those even numbering among "Christians" began to develop a nominal form of Christianity, denying a real change takes place except by an external adherence to nominal Christian Law.

That is, heresy began with the notion that Christian change is purely superficial--a conformity to law, as opposed to an internal, spiritual change in which the heart yields to the lordship of Christ enabling us to be transformed into sons and daughters.

With this in mind we can read 1 and 2 Peter and recognize these telltale signs. And we can also see in history the various heretical groups rise, creating schisms between conventional Christian and a lukewarm, even heretical, Christianity.

Where do we see it in Peter?

1 Pet 1.14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance.

Early in the Church we have the example of Cerinthus, who was a legalist and provided a carnal hope in the future Kingdom. We saw Ebionites who taught a strictly "human" Jesus without sacrificing the need to adhere to the Law.

2.1 Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind.
2.7 Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, “The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone.”

The basic denial of a divine Christ was an early problem facing those who responded with a clear Trinitarian theology. There was resistance to the clear Deity of Christ with the attendant denial of a divine, spiritual change in us, as a consequence.

2.11 Dear friends, I urge you, as foreigners and exiles, to abstain from sinful desires, which wage war against your soul.
2.16 Live as free people, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as God’s slaves.

Libertinism came when Greek philosophy, such as Hedonism, connected to Christian teaching. "All things are pure to him who is pure" is taken to an excess, justifying sexual behavior as a form of "Christian love and grace."

3.3 Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as elaborate hairstyles and the wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes.

Not too long ago there was a tremendous emphasis on reaching the world by worldly means, making Christianity palatable to the world in terms of quality of production, appealing to the senses, and competing with the world in terms of wealth and happiness. Quality to an excess is simply "lust."

3.9 Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult.

The zealotry of the early Jews can be compared to the Crusades and Inquisitions of the Catholics when they went to the extreme, in terms of civil order and adventurism.

4.3 For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. 4 They are surprised that you do not join them in their reckless, wild living, and they heap abuse on you.

Peer pressure is a perennial problem in Christianity--the desire to compromise the Gospel in order to be a "witness" to them of "brotherliness." Some marry paganism to "win them to Christ."

4.9 Offer hospitality to one another without grumbling.

A critical spirit is a perennial problem in the Church. We should judge all things with the right spirit.

5.2 Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, watching over them—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not pursuing dishonest gain, but eager to serve; 3 not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock.

Another perennial problem is when the Church joined the State and became confused with it. The State is political and is separate from Religious Authority which is not to be a heirarchy and controlling.

Ministries have become money-oriented to the loss of true ministry and to their disgrace.

2 Peter 1.9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.
2.1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories.
2.10 This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh and despise authority. Bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to heap abuse on celestial beings; 11 yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not heap abuse on such beings when bringing judgment on them from the Lord. 12 But these people blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish.
13 They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you. 14 With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! 15 They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Bezer, who loved the wages of wickedness. 16 But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—an animal without speech—who spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.
17 These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.” 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”

When Christian sects separate completely from orthodox Christian doctrine it should become obvious that their sectarian spirit is a poisoned, non-Christian spirit. They are a law to themselves and declare their own truths. We should be able to recognize the "Christian cults."

 

[RandyK]

Looks like I’m out before I even got started-especially with that bit about “boredom and confusion by scholarship,” right, brother?
Like you, I’ve been doing verse-by-verse study for years now, alongside a professor in hermeneutics-Bob Utley-a man I deeply appreciate.

But I’ll step back here, since I don’t want to derail the thread.

Johann.

I kind of swing between 2 or 3 different forums, and am not really familiar with you. What do you mean by this? I don't think "Hidden" was dismissing "scholarship"--that's not like him. I think he likes to stay "on point" in some of his studies, which is, I think, wise. But I'll let him speak for himself....

I'm interested in whatever you might want to say on matters being raised--just take them to a place where they may fit in better, perhaps? Let me know...

 

[Hidden In Him]

I agree that there's a lot of good in their teaching--it's just excessive. I later wrote Copeland and suggested he may have a Gift of Faith that works for him more often than it does for others who are not led in that kind of ministry.

Recently I discovered that as much as Copeland made in dollars he gave away a lot of money too. So I won't spend all day berating him--I will just oppose his excess.

Yes, excessive, and in some cases to the extreme. Very willful individual. Everything was centered on faith - including passages that really didn't have anything to do with how he was using them. I heard him admit one time when someone was saying he didn't teach the whole counsel of God, "I don't know the whole counsel of God." The thing is, when you don't you can go off on tangents really bad, and he was influencing a LOT of people. It's like James said, "Be there not many teachers for we shall receive the greater condemnation."

Please don't be offended if I share personal beliefs in biblical prophecy that rub you a little wrong. Many of my beliefs are based on a very broad assortment of sources that sometimes go back many centuries. I, for example, get some of my beliefs from the Church Fathers. I get some of my beliefs frrom the Reformers. I get some of my beliefs even from the Catholics, and certainly some from today's Pentecostals.

Not at all, Randy. I just always seem to be doing something and a day is never really my own. If you are referring to getting back to your The Roman King thread, I can try later today.

But as you suggest, when we go slowly and methodically through the Bible, verse by verse, we can't stray too far. It's just a matter of being a bit scholarly and understanding the context. I've spent years doing this, and will never, in this lifetime, feel "I've arrived." There's too much to know, and there are always new issues.

Me too, bro.

 

[Johann!@#]

I kind of swing between 2 or 3 different forums, and am not really familiar with you. What do you mean by this? I don't think "Hidden" was dismissing "scholarship"--that's not like him. I think he likes to stay "on point" in some of his studies, which is, I think, wise. But I'll let him speak for himself....

I'm interested in whatever you might want to say on matters being raised--just take them to a place where they may fit in better, perhaps? Let me know...

No worries--I’ll take my thoughts elsewhere to a thread that might be a better fit... it was clearly a mistake on my part to post here in the first place.
As I mentioned, I’ll step back now so this thread can stay on course.

Truth be told, I usually last a day or two on most Christian forums before I’m shown the door.

I didn’t notice the pop-up stating this space was for charismatics before I posted... that’s on me.

J.

I'm interested in whatever you might want to say on matters being raised--just take them to a place where they may fit in better, perhaps? Let me know...

 

[Hidden In Him]

Looks like I’m out before I even got started-especially with that bit about “boredom and confusion by scholarship,” right, brother? Like you, I’ve been doing verse-by-verse study for years now, alongside a professor in hermeneutics-Bob Utley-a man I deeply appreciate.

But I’ll step back here, since I don’t want to derail the thread.

Johann.

Greetings Johann.

Like any other thread, these studies take on a life of their own. So long as the posts aren't strongly heretical I have no problem with you posting on the passage, or on topics brought up by posters. Feel free to share your thoughts.
- H

 

[Hidden In Him]

I did an historical survey many years ago, with respect to Christian historical development, and recognized that heresy began with the notion that "people don't really change." Of course, as Christians the 1st thing we recognize is change! We find a newness of life, a renewed mind, and a heart that is interested in fellowship with God. We are focused upon God's will, and not on our own carnal interests.

If there is no change then Christianity is a complete lie, LoL. But that's precisely the power of the Christian faith - the Holy Spirit being poured upon human beings so that they manifest the Spirit of God, and take on the character and ability of Christ operating through them.

They also underestimate the goodness of God. Just to share a little, I have seen Him taking increasing control over my life in the last year, and at some point you just go, "Ok this is clearly not my life anymore. He is doing with it what He pleases at this point." Some of it is so glorious that you sit back and you wonder how He could bless you that much. But always in the back of your head you are thinking, "Your life is not your own anymore, so obey orders." But they underestimate the power of God when He increasingly takes hold of a life, and that we have no choice but to submit to His plans for us. It brings life change, because you are practically FORCED to conform. If you want to continue in the things of God and His plan for your life, you will separate out from the things of this world, or His power will no longer flow because you are not in the center of His will or walking in obedience.

Might be controversial to say, but that's the way I see it happening these days in my own life.

 

[Hidden In Him]

With this in mind we can read 1 and 2 Peter and recognize these telltale signs. And we can also see in history the various heretical groups rise, creating schisms between conventional Christian and a lukewarm, even heretical, Christianity.

Where do we see it in Peter?

Ton of things to respond to here. Gonna take another break and try and catch up later.

Blessings!
- H

 

[RandyK]

If there is no change then Christianity is a complete lie, LoL. But that's precisely the power of the Christian faith - the Holy Spirit being poured upon human beings so that they manifest the Spirit of God, and take on the character and ability of Christ operating through them.

They also underestimate the goodness of God. Just to share a little, I have seen Him taking increasing control over my life in the last year, and at some point you just go, "Ok this is clearly not my life anymore. He is doing with it what He pleases at this point." Some of it is so glorious that you sit back and you wonder how He could bless you that much. But always in the back of your head you are thinking, "Your life is not your own anymore, so obey orders." But they underestimate the power of God when He increasingly takes hold of a life, and that we have no choice but to submit to His plans for us. It brings life change, because you are practically FORCED to conform. If you want to continue in the things of God and His plan for your life, you will separate out from the things of this world, or His power will no longer flow because you are not in the center of His will or walking in obedience.

Might be controversial to say, but that's the way I see it happening these days in my own life.

Oh yea, I can identify with that! I've got to the point where nothing matters if God isn't in it. And if He is in it, you never know what may happen?--after all, He is God and is likely to do amazing things with what little input we put in.

Sometimes God asks of us the smallest of things, like giving a brother/sister a cup of cold water. And God may use that as a vehicle for introducing a gully-washer for others down the line.

I know for some God has asked a lot, in terms of labor and suffering. God does what God does--He loves variety. Look at all of the animal and plant life--pure variety with one thing in mind, to bring life, beauty, and story to every habitat there is (except perhaps space).

In the same way, God will be the same good God to all of us. But He may ask of us what He wants to do through us. We have to be ready for that, and avoid preconceived notions.

In sum, we have to do what you're suggesting--just be a vessel for the Master's use, and enjoy it. If we make it to the finish line, our joy will know no end! ;)