Christ’s Law Obedience

[Jim Parker]

Righteousness - the measure of one's ability to do right ie. to keep the law and all of its commandments.

Thank you for that very direct, clear and concise answer.
That's all I was asking for.

 

[netchaplain]

Righteousness - the measure of one's ability to do right ie. to keep the law and all of its commandments.

Just a reminder that righteousness cannot come from the law, for "a man is not justified by the works of the law" (Gal 2:15). Attempting to be justified by the law has nothing to do with grace (Gal 5:4, 21). Works of any kind are not intended to bring about justification, this is looking to self and not to Jesus; but works are to point to the fact that Jesus has justified us. Who do you want to be the supporter of your righteousness, self or Jesus, both are not possible.

 

[Jim Parker]

Righteousness - the measure of one's ability to do right ie. to keep the law and all of its commandments.

That's clear and concise.
Thank you.

 

[Jim Parker]

Works of any kind are not intended to bring about justification,

Perhaps you have not read:
"... faith apart from works is barren" (Jas 2:20b RSV)
Barren things do not produce life, eternal or otherwise.
You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. (Jas 2:24 RSV)
No one will be justified by "works OF THE LAW."
For no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. (Ro 3:20 RSV)
However; "works of the law" are not the same as "good works." Unfortunately, way too many people conflate the two.

We ARE supposed to do good works. Doing good works is what God does and we are supposed to be like our Father.
Beloved, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good. He who does good is of God,... (3Jo 1:11 RSV)

Doing good works is what we were created to do.
For we are His workmanship (1), created in Christ Jesus for good works (2), which God prepared beforehand (3) that we should walk in them.(4) (Eph 2:10 RSV)
(1) We are God's creation
(2) We were created by God in Christ for the express purpose of doing good works. (Not for "works of the law.")
(3) God prepared those good works for us to do before we were born.
(4) God expects us to do them.

So if you're not doing good works it's a very strong indication that you are not justified. (Generic "you", not you personally)


iakov the fool

 

[netchaplain]

Perhaps you have not read:
"... faith apart from works is barren" (Jas 2:20b RSV)
Barren things do not produce life, eternal or otherwise.

I'm referring to the word "produce," which is to bring about justification as I mention above. There's nothing man can do to produce justification, only show justification. Just as the branch (man) cannot produce fruit (of the Spirit), because it's the vine (Jesus - John 15:5) that produces and the branch "bears" (shows - John 15:8) it.

From faith comes works; from God comes faith!

 

[Jim Parker]

I'm referring to the word "produce," which is to bring about justification as I mention above. There's nothing man can do to produce justification,

AH! I agree. It is God who applies the energy by which man is saved.
Man's part is only to be obedient to God's will.
Does he (the master) thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I think not. So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, ‘We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.’ (Luke 17:9-10 NKJV)
So, indeed, no human being, by his works, can "produce" righteousness. But, through obedience to God's will he can act righteously and without that obedience, the servant will find himself to be deemed the unprofitable servant who is cast into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.(Mat 25:30 NKJV)

iakov the fool

 

[netchaplain]

Man's part is only to be obedient to God's will.

Isn't obedience due to Phl 2:13? It also should be clearly known that man's has part has nothing to do with effecting salvation, just receiving it and revealing it to others (through works, i.e. obedience). If one who professes to be a Christian and does not eventually manifest God's "work" in him, it's highly improbable that he is a Christian! But that is more for that individual and God to know, not others.

 

[Jim Parker]

man's has part has nothing to do with effecting salvation

Faith without works will not save anyone. (Yes, there is the example of the thief on the cross so, anyone who is currently nailed to a cross and who will be dead before he gets taken down, if he believes, he can skip the good works.)
Faith without works is dead. Dead things do not produce fruit. Those who are "in Christ" but weho do not produce fruit are cut off, wither and die, ane end up in the fire.

The teaching that all you have to do is believe and that there is no need to do any good works is a lie.

Don't call Jesus your "LORD" if you don't do what He says. Luke 6:46

 

[turnorburn]

What about these folks in...

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

 

[smaller]

What about these folks in...

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

People fear to hear Gods Words. And they do so because they can't hear LIFE in every Word. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4.

 

[netchaplain]

Faith without works will not save anyone.
Faith without works is dead.

Amen and I agree! A said-faith which is a profession-only faith is not a faith at all, hence the thought "is dead faith," e.g. nonexistent faith, like James wrote, "A man may say" he has faith but if there are no works (fruit of the Spirit) to show it, he's a false professor of faith, because there is no faith. Thus everyone born again eventually has works manifesting their faith because God will be "working in them to will and do of His Good pleasure" (Phili 2:13). This work "to desire and do" is in everyone born again, and if the life doesn't eventually manifest this (e.g. through good works), there is only a single possible explanation--God is not in them because they have not been born again!

The crux to what I'm referring is differentiating between producing (effecting) and manifesting (bear or display). The former is where everything in salvation originates; the latter is where it all is manifest. Man's part is never on the production side, only on the manifest side, just as the analogy Christ used with the "Vine" and the "branch" (John 15:5). Only the vine can produce fruit (salvation and good works from it) and all the branch can do is "bear" or manifest it (John 15:8--used of God to perform works). Thus every good work seen of from the believer is only a manifestation of salvation, not a production of salvation. As it is commonly known everything functions by cause and effect. God causes salvation and the effect is man receiving it and showing it to others. Right?

 

[Jim Parker]

he crux to what I'm referring is differentiating between producing (effecting) and manifesting (bear or display). The former is where everything in salvation originates; the latter is where it all is manifest.

Salvation is what God offers freely to anyone who believes.
Believing includes both an intellectual element of accepting the facts of what God has done and and a behavioral behavioral element of acting on that belief. God has done His part and we must do our part.
Believing without taking action is a coin with only one side. It's not real.
Acting in accordance with what we profess to believe is a repeated, conscious decision on the part of the believer which (s)he makes repeatedly throughout every day in her/his conscious and willful choice to be obedient to the will of God.

The servant who does not strive to do what his master tells him to do is not a faithful servant. The believer who does not strive to cooperate with the Holy Spirit in being conformed to the image of Christ, to be Christ-like, is NOT a faithful servant and will find himself "cast into the outer darkness."

Faith without faithfulness is meaningless. God has done His part; we must do ours.

And the notion that, once a person "accepts Jesus into his heart", his behavior will automatically become Christlike is false. The Christian life is a life of constant repentance as exemplified by Paul who, forgetting what was behind, strove and pressed on toward the upward calling of God and did not think that he had been what is today popularly called "saved" until he was very near to the time of his execution.

Phl 3:8-15a (RSV) Indeed I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as refuse, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, based on law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith; that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.
Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Let those of us who are mature be thus minded;

2Ti 4:6-8a (RSV) For I am already on the point of being sacrificed; the time of my departure has come. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness,

A gospel of faith alone without works is a false gospel, It is what Dietrich Bonhoeffer called "cheap grace." IT is the belief which James said even the demons have. (Jas 2:19)

 

[netchaplain]

God has done His part and we must do our part.
(Jas 2:19)

I think we're pretty close to agreement here. I don't know if it's the same for you, but I believe our part (works) has only to do with showing to others that God has done His part. We cannot do our part until He does His, e.g. our part is first receiving faith and salvation, out of which we can do our other part, which is showing this receiving by works (Eph 2:10). If you're born again this will occur without fail per Philippians 2:13. If the evidence of works is not permanent, then God was never there, because everything He does concerning salvation is permanent.

 

[Jim Parker]

I believe our part (works) has only to do with showing to others that God has done His part.

I don not agree. What other's may think is irrelevant. The good works are what we were created to do. (Eph. 2:10) And if we're not doing those good works we're not producing fruit and we will be cut off from Christ and end up in "the fire" according to John 15.

If Jesus is our LORD then we need to obey Him. If we're not obeying Him then He's not our LORD no matter what we say, how big a cross we wear, how big a Bible we tote and how many fish stickers we have on our bumper.

If you're born again this will occur without fail per Philippians 2:13.

We do not relinquish our free will when we "get saved." We are still free to choose to sin; to follow Jesus' commands or to refuse to do so. We do not become God's puppets who can only do good. We continue to struggle with temptation and sin for the rest of our earthly lives; sometime winning and sometimes loosing.

If the evidence of works is not permanent, then God was never there, because everything He does concerning salvation is permanent.

That is circular reasoning. That is the rationalization of the OSAS crowed. It is nonsense because scripture specifically refutes that false teaching.

iakov the fool

 

[netchaplain]

I don not agree. What other's may think is irrelevant.

I didn't mention about what others think but that we give them the opportunity by showing them in our works.

The good works are what we were created to do. (Eph. 2:10) And if we're not doing those good works we're not producing fruit and we will be cut off from Christ and end up in "the fire" according to John 15.

If we're not doing those works we've yet to encounter God!

 

[Jim Parker]

I didn't mention about what others think but that we give them the opportunity by showing them in our works.

OK, "Showing others that God has done His part" is irrelevant. And there is nothing in scripture to support such a notion. It is purely an artifact of the "no works" for salvation false teaching.

If we're not doing those works we've yet to encounter God!

And that is the circular reasoning, logical fallacy whereby A proves B because B proves A.
It is also part of the "no works" for salvation (also false) teaching that has infected so many churches.
There are multitudes of Christians going to churches where they are taught the false doctrine that they don't need to do anything but "believe." (Oh, yeah, and tithe) It's what Bonhoeffer called "Cheap Grace." Cheap Grace is a foundational doctrine of whole bunch of denominations. They teach their sheep "You can't earn your salvation." but don't teach the rest of the truth that faith without works is dead and no one will be justified by having faith without works.

Chapter 2 of James makes it perfectly clear and Christians go through all kinds of mental contortions trying to come up with some plausible excuse no to believe what the Holy Spirit had James write for our benefit. They come up with all kinds of nonsense so they can say that James didn't really say what he clearly said. It's what their "pastor" taught them or what they heard from their favorite televangelist and it gives them an excuse to not get off their duffs and be a living Gospel by letting their light so shine before men, that they may see your GOOD WORKS, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. (Mat 5:16 KJV - my emphasis) Besides, no one wants to appear "too KAAATH-lick" by "working your way into heaven" right?

One of the most quoted parts of the book deals with the distinction which Bonhoeffer makes between "cheap" and "costly" grace. According to Bonhoeffer,

"cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline. Communion without confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ."

Cheap grace, Bonhoeffer says, is to hear the gospel preached as follows: "Of course you have sinned, but now everything is forgiven, so you can stay as you are and enjoy the consolations of forgiveness." The main defect of such a proclamation is that it contains no demand for discipleship. In contrast to cheap grace,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cost_of_Discipleship

 

[netchaplain]

OK, "Showing others that God has done His part" is irrelevant. And there is nothing in scripture to support such a notion. It is purely an artifact of the "no works" for salvation false teaching.

Mat 5:16; John 15:8; Act 1:8. Our beliefs differ here.

 

[Jim Parker]

Mat 5:16; John 15:8; Act 1:8. Our beliefs differ here.

Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.
That says you are expected to do good works.
That tells us that part of being a disciple of Christ is doing good works.
It says the result of you doing good works is that God will be glorified.
That has nothing to do with "Showing others that God has done His part"

Jhn 15:8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be my disciples.
That, again, says that the purpose is that God is glorified and that the "fruit-bearer" is a true Jesus' disciple.
That verse also tells us that part of being a disciple of Christ is doing good works.
That also has nothing to do with "Showing others that God has done His part"

Act 1:8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Sama'ria and to the end of the earth."
That says Jesus' disciples will be empowered to bear witness to God.
So that verse also tells us that part of being a disciple of Christ is doing good works.
That also has nothing to do with "Showing others that God has done His part"

All you have done is you have made up what you believe is a plausible excuse to give the appearance that the Bible does not say what it indeed does say. And it says that the faith without works Gospel is a false gospel because faith without works is dead faith and dead things do not produce fruit and that no one will be justified by faith alone without works.
(James 2)

I find it dismaying and saddening that people will go to such lengths to promote such anti-scriptural nonsense and fight against the simple, clear message of the New Testament. The tens of thousands of Protestant denominations, sects, and independent churches attest to the reality that the teaching of scripture takes the back seat to the imaginations of men and their doctrinal fabrications.

 

[netchaplain]

Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.
That says you are expected to do good works.
That tells us that part of being a disciple of Christ is doing good works.
It says the result of you doing good works is that God will be glorified.
That has nothing to do with "Showing others that God has done His part"

I think we have a misunderstand in what we meant. What I meant is "giving them (others) the opportunity (for desiring salvation) by showing them in our works." I took what you said to mean it's irrelevant to show others God's work in you. (Showing others that God has done His part" is irrelevant). Did we misunderstand each other?

 

[Jim Parker]

I think we have a misunderstand in what we meant. What I meant is "giving them (others) the opportunity (for desiring salvation) by showing them in our works." I took what you said to mean it's irrelevant to show others God's work in you. (Showing others that God has done His part" is irrelevant). Did we misunderstand each other?

Looks like we did.