Christ is YWHW

[Albina]

YWHW and Christ in Isaiah 40-48 and the New Testament
Christ is the same as YHWH ISAIAH NEW TESTAMENT

1. YHWH is the "First and the Last: Christ is the "First and the Last"
"I, YHWH, am the first; And with the last I am He." (Isaiah 41:4) "I am the First and the Last. (Rev. 1:17)
"These things says the First and the Last" (Rev. 2:8)

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last." (Rev. 22:13)

2. YHWH is the only "Savior" Christ is the "Savior"
"I, even I, am YHWH, And besides Me there is no savior." (Isaiah 43:11) For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. (Luke 2:11)
1 John 4:14 the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

3. YHWH is Redeemer Christ is Redeemer
As for our redeemer, YHWH of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel. (Isaiah 47:4, KJV). Christ hath redeemed us... (Galatians 3:13)
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity... (Titus 2:14)

4. YHWH is the "Rock" Christ is the "Rock"
Is there a God besides Me? Indeed there is no other Rock; I know not one. (Isa 44:8) For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. (1 Corinthians 10:4)
"Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense, And whoever believes on Him [Jesus] will not be put to shame." (Romans 9:33)

5. YHWH is the King of Israel Christ is the King of Israel
I am YHWH, your Holy One...your King. (Isaiah 43:15)
Thus saith YHWH the King of Israel...and beside me there is no God. (Isaiah 44:6)
Then Pilate asked Him, saying, "Are You the King of the Jews?" He answered him and said, "It is as you say." (Luke 23:3)
"Fear not, daughter of Zion; Behold, your King is coming, Sitting on a donkey's colt." (John 12:15)

the Lamb...is Lord of lords, and King of kings (Rev. 19:14)

6. YHWH is the Holy One Christ is the Holy One
I am YHWH, your Holy One... (Isaiah 43:15)
As for our Redeemer, YHWH of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel (Isaiah 47:4)
"And we have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God." (John 6:69)
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in sheol, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Acts 2:27)

2Co 4:3 So if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are dying.
2Co 4:4 In their case, the god of this world has blinded the minds of those who do not believe to keep them from seeing the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God.
2Co 4:5 For we do not preach ourselves but Jesus Christ as Lord[Adonai(Sovereign God)], and ourselves as merely your servants for Jesus' sake.
2Co 4:6 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," has shone in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God's glory in the face of Jesus Christ.

Heb 1:1 God, having spoken in former times in fragmentary and varied fashion to our forefathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 has in these last days spoken to us by a Son whom he appointed to be the heir of everything and through whom he also made the universe. Heb 1:3 He is the reflection of God's glory and the exact likeness of his being, and he holds everything together by his powerful word. After he had provided a cleansing from sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Highest Majesty Heb 1:4 and became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is better than theirs. Heb 1:5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son. Today I have become your Father"? Or again, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son"?
Heb 1:6 And again, when he brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him." Heb 1:7 Now about the angels he says, "He makes his angels winds, and his servants flames of fire."
Heb 1:8 [b] But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of your kingdom is a righteous scepter. [/b]Heb 1:9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness. That is why God, your God, anointed you rather than your companions with the oil of gladness."

Joh 8:24 That is why I told you that you will die in your sins. For unless you believe that I Am, you will die in your sins."
Heb 11:6 and without faith it is impossible to be well-pleasing unto him; for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that seek after him.

 

[Albina]

Joh 1:1 In the beginning, the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He existed in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 Through him all things were made, and apart from him nothing was made that has been made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life, and that life brought light to humanity.
Joh 1:5 And the light shines on in the darkness, and the darkness has never put it out.

Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth.
Joh 1:15 John beareth witness of him, and crieth, saying, This was he of whom I said, He that cometh after me is become before me: for he was before me.
Joh 1:16 For of his fulness we all received, and grace for grace.
Joh 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

 

[Solo]

Amen!

That is what I have been talking about. :D

 

[jsasaki06]

Yes, I agree. The God YWHW of the Old Testament is Jesus' Father, and Jesus and Father are supposed to be one and the same.

 

[Guest]

Is Jesus Yahweh?

No and never.

Jesus cannot be Yahweh. In Isaiah 44:24 it says that Yahweh was alone when he created the heavens and the earth. Matthew 12:18 quotes Isaiah 42:1 which says that Yahweh will send his servant. Who is that servant? It is Jesus.

Now if Yahweh was the one true God (Exodus 20:2-3) who alone created the heavens and the earth and he was the one who was to send his servant (Jesus), then that means that Jesus is not Yahweh. This means that Jesus is not God.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Is Jesus Yahweh?

No and never.

Jesus cannot be Yahweh. In Isaiah 44:24 it says that Yahweh was alone when he created the heavens and the earth. Matthew 12:18 quotes Isaiah 42:1 which says that Yahweh will send his servant. Who is that servant? It is Jesus.

Now if Yahweh was the one true God (Exodus 20:2-3) who alone created the heavens and the earth and he was the one who was to send his servant (Jesus), then that means that Jesus is not Yahweh. This means that Jesus is not God.

In John 8:58, when quizzed about how he has special knowledge of Abraham, Jesus replies, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am"â€â€invoking and applying to himself the personal name of Godâ€â€"I Am" (Ex. 3:14). His audience understood exactly what he was claiming about himself. "So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple" (John 8:59).

Christ’s divinity is shown over and over again in the New Testament. For example, in John 5:18 we are told that Jesus’ opponents sought to kill him because he "called God his Father, making himself equal with God."

In John 20:28, Thomas falls at Jesus’ feet, exclaiming, "My Lord and my God!" (Greek: Ho Kurios mou kai ho Theos mouâ€â€literally, "The Lord of me and the God of me!")

In Philippians 2:6, Paul tells us that Christ Jesus "[w]ho, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped" (New International Version). So Jesus chose to be born in humble, human form though he could have simply remained in equal glory with the Father for he was "in very nature God."

Also significant are passages that apply the title "the First and the Last" to Jesus. This is one of the Old Testament titles of Yahweh: "Thus says Yahweh, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Yahweh of armies: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; besides me there is no god’" (Is. 44:6; cf. 41:4, 48:12).

This title is directly applied to Jesus three times in the book of Revelation: "When I saw him [Christ], I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, ‘Fear not, I am the First and the Last’" (Rev. 1:17). "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life’" (Rev. 2:8). "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end" (Rev. 22:12–13).

This last quote is especially significant since it applies to Jesus the parallel title "the Alpha and the Omega," which Revelation earlier applied to the Lord God: "‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty" (Rev. 1:8).

 

[stovebolts]

I always enjoyed how St. Augustine put it :D

Chap. 5.â€â€The Trinity the true object of enjoyment

5. The true objects of enjoyment, then, are the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, who are at the same time the Trinity, one Being, supreme above all, and common to all who enjoy Him, if He is an object, and not rather the cause of all objects, or indeed even if He is the cause of all. For it is not easy to find a name that will suitably express so great excellence, unless it is better to speak in this way: The Trinity, one God, of whom are all things, through whom are all things, in whom are all things. Thus the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, and each of these by Himself, is God, and at the same time they are all one God; and each of them by Himself is a complete substance, and yet they are all one substance. The Father is not the Son nor the Holy Spirit; the Son is not the Father nor the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is not the Father nor the Son: but the Father is only Father, the Son is only Son, and the Holy Spirit is only Holy Spirit. To all three belong the same eternity, the same unchangeableness, the same majesty, the same power. In the Father is unity, in the Son equality, in the Holy Spirit the harmony of unity and equality; and these three attributes are all one because of the Father, all equal because of the Son, and all harmonious because of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Augustine was a good Catholic :-D

 

[stovebolts]

Yeah, I suppose he was now, wasn't he? Care to discuss the true, unadulterated word "Catholic", as used by the first century "Christians" in another thread? :

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Yeah, I suppose he was now, wasn't he? Care to discuss the true, unadulterated word "Catholic", as used by the first century "Christians" in another thread? :

I would rather discuss Augustine's loyalty to the Bishop of Rome and the Chair of Peter. I have enough quotes to last me quite a while if I dole them out sparingly

I'll even talk about his mom, Saint Monica

 

[Guest]

In John 8:58, when quizzed about how he has special knowledge of Abraham, Jesus replies, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am"â€â€invoking and applying to himself the personal name of Godâ€â€"I Am" (Ex. 3:14). His audience understood exactly what he was claiming about himself. "So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple" (John 8:59)...

Reply to Catholic Crusader

Does "I Am" prove divinity of christ?

It is claimed that Jesus used the words, "I am", and since these same words were used by God to describe Himself to the people in the Old Testament, Jesus was claiming to be God. John 8:58, is presented to back this claim. In the verse, Jesus says:" Before Abraham was I am."

Now, if Jesus existed before Abraham did, that might be a remarkable thing, but does that prove that he was God? How many people existed before Abraham? The Bible presents Jeremiah as being a prophet before he was conceived in his mother's womb (Jeremiah 1:5), yet no one says that his pre-human existence qualifies him for deity.

How many people in that age would have said "I am," in answer to questions in everyday life. Billions. Are they all gods? If you ask me :"Are you John," and I say "I am," am I claiming to be God just because God happened to use the words "I am?"

 

[Catholic Crusader]

The scripures are pretty plain that God IS Trinity, and therefore Christ is God:

Jesus tells his apostles to baptize "in the name [notice, singular, not plural] of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Matt. 28:19). This is a proof-text: three distinct Persons united in the one divine name. In 2 Corinthians 13:14, Paul writes, "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all." We see this same unity of divine Persons in 1 Corinthians 12:4–11, Ephesians 4:4–6, and 1 Peter 1:2–3.

The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus is God (cf. John 8:58, 10:38, 14:10; Col. 2:9). It also clearly teaches that the Holy Spirit is God (cf. Acts 5:3–4, 28:25–28; 1 Cor. 2:10–13). Everyone agrees the Father is God. Yet there is only one God (Mark 12:29, 1 Cor. 8:4–6, Jas. 2:19). How can we hold all four truths except to say all three are One God?

And yes, Jesus DID say he was God. Significant are passages that apply the title "the First and the Last" to Jesus. This is one of the Old Testament titles of Yahweh: "Thus says Yahweh, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Yahweh of armies: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; besides me there is no god’" (Is. 44:6; cf. 41:4, 48:12).

 

[Guest]

The scripures are pretty plain that God IS Trinity, and therefore Christ is God:

Jesus tells his apostles to baptize "in the name [notice, singular, not plural] of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Matt. 28:19). This is a proof-text: three distinct Persons united in the one divine name...

Another reply to Catholic Crusader

If three persons are sitting or eating together, does it mean that they form one person? No.

Read the Matthew 28:19 in its context

Mathew 28:18-20 "And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: All authority (from GOD) has been given me in heaven and on the earth. Go therefore and make disciples of people of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father (God), the Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit (GOD's inspiration), teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things."

Jesus said in Mathew 28:18-20 ".....All authority (from GOD) has been give to me in heaven and on the earth...." it clearly shows that Jesus had a stronger or higher power over him. One has to ask himself a very simple question here: How can GOD say that GOD had given him authority? It doesn't make any sense, does it?

when Jesus in Mathew 28:18-20 said ".....baptizing them in the name of the Father (God), the Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit (GOD'S inspiration)...." he didn't say go and baptize people in my name (Jehovah). He mentioned his GOD first, then himself (GOD'S messenger), and in GOD's inspiration (The Holy Spirit). This clearly disproves the claim that GOD IS THREE = GOD+JESUS+HOLY SPIRIT.

 

[Free]

Mansoor_ali,

Like anyone else who argues against the Trinity, you are taking only the verses which seem to support your position. With all that Holy Scripture speaks of Jesus, his divinity can be plainly seen and the doctrine of the Trinity emerges.

If three persons are sitting or eating together, does it mean that they form one person? No.

That is not what the doctrine of the Trinity states. To say that there are three persons that form one person is a contradiction, just as it is to say that three Gods form the one God.

when Jesus in Mathew 28:18-20 said ".....baptizing them in the name of the Father (God), the Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit (GOD'S inspiration)...." he didn't say go and baptize people in my name (Jehovah). He mentioned his GOD first, then himself (GOD'S messenger), and in GOD's inspiration (The Holy Spirit). This clearly disproves the claim that GOD IS THREE = GOD+JESUS+HOLY SPIRIT.

But you missed the obvious, which I think was pointed out already--"in the name" is singular. That single name consists of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

 

[DavidLee]

Is Jesus Yahweh?

No and never.

Jesus cannot be Yahweh. In Isaiah 44:24 it says that Yahweh was alone when he created the heavens and the earth. Matthew 12:18 quotes Isaiah 42:1 which says that Yahweh will send his servant. Who is that servant? It is Jesus.

Now if Yahweh was the one true God (Exodus 20:2-3) who alone created the heavens and the earth and he was the one who was to send his servant (Jesus), then that means that Jesus is not Yahweh. This means that Jesus is not God.

If Jesus is not God, then a man died a horrible humiliating death for nothing.
If Jesus is not God, then we are all lost, slaves to sin, without hope of reconciliation with God.
And that, my muslim friend, is not my experience at all.

God loves you. He came down from Heaven and gave His life for you. Embrace the cross.

 

[Guest]

Mansoor_ali,

Like anyone else who argues against the Trinity, you are taking only the verses which seem to support your position. With all that Holy Scripture speaks of Jesus, his divinity can be plainly seen and the doctrine of the Trinity emerges.

If three persons are sitting or eating together, does it mean that they form one person? No.

That is not what the doctrine of the Trinity states. To say that there are three persons that form one person is a contradiction, just as it is to say that three Gods form the one God.

[quote:e312a]when Jesus in Mathew 28:18-20 said ".....baptizing them in the name of the Father (God), the Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit (GOD'S inspiration)...." he didn't say go and baptize people in my name (Jehovah). He mentioned his GOD first, then himself (GOD'S messenger), and in GOD's inspiration (The Holy Spirit). This clearly disproves the claim that GOD IS THREE = GOD+JESUS+HOLY SPIRIT.

But you missed the obvious, which I think was pointed out already--"in the name" is singular. That single name consists of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.[/quote:e312a]

Response to Free

Topic:"In the name of"

Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." (Matthew 28:19)

This passage is a forgery

“All but the most conservative of scholars agree that at least the latter part of this command (Matt. 28:19) was inserted later†(Tom Harper, For Christ’s Sake, p. 84)

"The historical riddle is not solved by Matthew 28:19, since, according to a wide scholarly consensus, it is not an authentic saying of Jesus, not even an elaboration of a Jesus-saying on baptism" (The Anchor Bible Dictionary, Vol. 1, 1992, page 585).

"It has been customary to trace the institution of the practice (of baptism) to the words of Christ recorded in Matthew 28:19. But the authenticity of this passage has been challenged on historical as well as on textual grounds. It must be acknowledged that the formula of the threefold name, which is here enjoined, does not appear to have been employed by the primitive Church, which, so far as our information goes, baptized 'in' or 'into the name of Jesus' (or 'Jesus Christ' or Lord Jesus': Acts 2:38, 8:16, 10:48, 19:5, 1 Cor. 1:13, 15) (The Dictionary of the Bible, 1947, page 83).

Matthew 28:19, "the Church of the first days did not observe this world-wide command, even if they knew it. The command to baptize into the threefold name is a late doctrinal expansion. In place of the words "baptizing... Spirit" we should probably read simply "into my name," i.e. (turn the nations) to Christianity, "in my name," i.e. (teach the nations) in my spirit" (Peake's Commentary on the Bible, 1929, page 723).

"It cannot be directly proved that Jesus instituted baptism, for Matthew 28:19 is not a saying of the Lord. The reason for this assertion are: (1) It is only a later stage of the tradition that represents the risen Christ as delivering speeches and giving commandments. Paul knows nothing of it. (2) The Trinitarian formula is foreign to the mouth of Jesus and has not the authority of the Apostolic age which it must have had if it had descended from Jesus himself. On the other hand, Paul knows of no other way of receiving the Gentiles into the Christian communities than by baptism, and it is highly probable that in the time of Paul all Jewish Christians were also baptized. We may perhaps assume that the practice of baptism was continued in consequence of Jesus' recognition of John the Baptist and his baptism, even after John himself had been removed. According to John 4:2, Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples under his superintendence. It is possible only with the help of tradition to trace back to Jesus a "Sacrament of Baptism," or an obligation to it ex necessitate salutis, through it is credible that tradition is correct here. Baptism in the Apostolic age was in the name of the Lord Jesus (1 Cor. 1:13; Acts 19:5). We cannot make out when the formula in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit emerged" (History of Dogma, Vol. 1, Adolph Harnack, 1958, page 79).

"The very account which tells us that at the last, after his resurrection, he commissioned his apostles to go and baptize among all nations (Mt 28:19) betrayed itself by speaking in the Trinitarian language of the next century, and compels us to see in it the ecclesiastical editor, and not the evangelist, much less the founder himself. No historical trace appears of this baptismal formula earlier that the "Teaching of the Twelve Apostles" (ch. 7:1,3 The Oldest Church Manuel, ed. Philip Schaff, 1887), and the first Apology of Justin (Apol. i. 61.) about the middle of the second century: and more than a century later, Cyprian found it necessary to insist upon the use of it instead of the older phrase baptized "into Christ Jesus," or into the "name of the Lord Jesus." (Gal. 3:27; Acts 19:5; 10:48. Cyprian Ep. 73, 16-18, has to convert those who still use the shorter form.) Paul alone, of the apostles, was baptized, ere he was "filled with the Holy Ghost;" and he certainly was baptized simply "into Christ Jesus." (Rom. 6:3) Yet the tri-personal form, unhistorical as it is, is actually insisted on as essential by almost every Church in Christendom, and, if you have not had it pronounced over you, the ecclesiastical authorities cast you out as a heathen man, and will accord to you neither Christian recognition in your life, nor Christian burial in your death. It is a rule which would condemn as invalid every recorded baptism performed by an apostle; for if the book of Acts may be trusted, the invariable usage was baptism "in the name of Christ Jesus," (Acts 2:38) and not "in the name of the father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." And doubtless the author (Luke) is as good a witness for the usage of his own time (about 115 A.D.) as for that of the period whereof he treats" (The Seat of Authority in Religion, James Martineau, 1905, page 568).

"It is clear, therefore, that of the MSS which Eusebius inherited from his predecessor, Pamphilus, at Caesarea in Palestine, some at least preserved the original reading, in which there was no mention either of Baptism or of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. It had been conjectured by Dr. Davidson, Dr. Martineau, by the present Dean of Westminister, and by Prof. Harnack (to mention but a few names out of many), that here the received text, could not contain the very words of Jesus? This long before any one except Dr. Burgon, who kept the discovery to himself, had noticed the Eusebian form of the reading." "It is satisfactory to notice that Dr. Eberhard Nestle, in his new edition of the New Testament in Latin and Greek, furnishes the Eusebian reading in his critical apparatus, and that Dr. Sanday seems to lean to its acceptance" (History of New Testament Criticism, Conybeare, 1910, pages, 98-102, 111-112).

"Feine (PER3, XIX, 396 f) and Kattenbusch (Sch-Herz, I, 435 f. argue that the Trinitarian formula in Matthew 28:19 is spurious. No record of the use of the Trinitarian formula can be discovered in the Acts or the epistles of the apostles" (The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, James Orr, 1946, page 398).

Footnote to Matthew 28:19, It may be that this formula, so far as the fullness of its expression is concerned, is a reflection of the liturgical usage established later in the primitive community. It will be remembered that the Acts speak of baptizing "in the name of Jesus", Acts 1:5 +. But whatever the variation on formula the underlying reality remains the same" (The Jerusalem Bible, 1966, Page 64).

Critical scholarship, on the whole, rejects the traditional attribution of the tripartite baptismal formula to Jesus and regards it as of later origin. Undoubtedly then the baptismal formula originally consisted of one part and it gradually developed into its tripartite form (The Philosophy of the Church Fathers, Vol. 1, Harry Austryn Wolfson, 1964, pg 143).
Source:
http://jesus-messiah.com/apologetics/ca ... t2819.html

There is no indication that “Father, Son, and Holy Spirit†is one essence, Matthew is not speaking of trinity.

-----Continue-----

 

[Free]

For the sake of argument I will allow you that. But it is of little consequence.