Christian liberty; Carolyn's thoughts; habits and customs; etc.

[farouk]

The whole matter of Christian liberty when it comes to personal customs and habits is many faceted and sometimes intriguing.

Romans 14 is clear a charter for Christian liberty. If something is not heretical or immoral, then Scripture would seem to emphasize personal freedom. (As long as the liberty isn't used as an occasion to the flesh, that is.)

There are all sorts of examples in church history where issues of Christian liberty have been debated. For example, in the 16th century the Reformer Farel was basically run out of Geneva because Calvin thought he ought not to play backgammon. (Yes, really!)

Recently Carolyn, who makes thoughtful contributions, said:

.. I acknowledge that there are some who are not addicted to nicotine who can smoke 1 or 2 cigarettes a week and possibly not do as much harm to their lungs or to the people around them. My prayer is that your freedom will not cause those of US who are the weaker brethren to stumble, including children and teens who may emulate you. And I pray for you to use Godly wisdom. Personally, I envy you your freedom.

(My emphasis)

Everyone is going to define for oneself a sense of Christian liberty which probably differs from that of other Christians in some way or another, I guess.

Thoughts?

 

[Igloo]

Everyone is going to define for oneself a sense of Christian liberty which probably differs from that of other Christians in some way or another, I guess.

I agree, or they will let someone else choose their liberties for them.

As for smoking, it is worthless. It isn't even something to be called a liberty. That's like calling 'cutting' a liberty, because the body heals itself eventually. It's a disgrace that America has allowed tobacco companies to keep nicotine in their products, when America has seen people who struggle so hard to quit smoking.

 

[farouk]

I agree, or they will let someone else choose their liberties for them.

As for smoking, it is worthless. It isn't even something to be called a liberty. That's like calling 'cutting' a liberty, because the body heals itself eventually. It's a disgrace that America has allowed tobacco companies to keep nicotine in their products, when America has seen people who struggle so hard to quit smoking.

Igloo:

Thanks for your response and comments.

So you would, e.g., impose draconian taxes on all tobacco, then? (Then, of course, the government would become accustomed to more and more revenue coming from this source.)

Again, I wonder about definitions of Christian liberty in all this.

 

[Blev]

Funny you should mentioned this. Just yesterday when I was thinking for freedom in Christ. Our liberty in Christ is not to live any way we want, but it is the freedom to NOT sin by the power of God. Before we were saved we couldn't help but sin, because we were bound and didn't have the power not to. But now we have His power to resist sin and live a life that is pleasing to Him.

 

[tandemcpl]

I have noticed that “Christian Liberty,†by some, has been used as a means to circumvent certain other areas of the bible that call for us to be holy.

In my opinion, this has caused the church to conform to the culture, instead of the church transforming the culture.

Before Paul taught on the subject of Christian liberty, he taught that we are not to conform to the world, but to be holy. He said:
I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. <SUP></SUP>Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. (Rom 12:1-2, ESV)
<O:p</O:p
Be blessed.
<O:p</O:p
Toby

 

[farouk]

I have noticed that “Christian Liberty,” by some, has been used as a means to circumvent certain other areas of the bible that call for us to be holy.

In my opinion, this has caused the church to conform to the culture, instead of the church transforming the culture.

Before Paul taught on the subject of Christian liberty, he taught that we are not to conform to the world, but to be holy. He said:
I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. (Rom 12:1-2, ESV)
<o:p
Be blessed.
<o:p
Toby</o

tandemcpl:

Good thoughts there. Yes, you are right, that liberty should not be used as an occasion to the flesh. I think I mentioned this in passing at the beginning, but it's important, anyway.

I guess it ceases to be the exercise of liberty when someone appoints himself/herself to busybody in other men's matters, as both Paul and Peter say (2 Thess. 3.11; 1 Peter 4.15).

Blessings.</o

 

[Slider]

Paul also said that all things are lawful, but not all things are expedient. He also admitted that when he thought to do good, he didn't do good, but it wasn't really him, but the evil that was in him.

I'm not sure, but I think it was John that said not to "Love" the things of the world, and also said "I pray that God doesn't take you out of the world, but that we may be overcomers in this world." Paraphrasing, and maybe I'm wrong on who said it....

My point is that we are going to do evil because that's the curse of the flesh. Yet all things are lawful unto us, if we abide by the covenent of the Blood of Christ.

So to me it seems that we should govern our actions. Knowing that all our righteousness is a filthy rag, but don't let it interfere with our spiritual inner man. Yes, all things are lawful for me to do, but I don't do them because I know the consiquences and when they interfere with my walk in Christ, that's where the line has to be drawn!

 

[farouk]

Paul also said that all things are lawful, but not all things are expedient. He also admitted that when he thought to do good, he didn't do good, but it wasn't really him, but the evil that was in him.

I'm not sure, but I think it was John that said not to "Love" the things of the world, and also said "I pray that God doesn't take you out of the world, but that we may be overcomers in this world." Paraphrasing, and maybe I'm wrong on who said it....

My point is that we are going to do evil because that's the curse of the flesh. Yet all things are lawful unto us, if we abide by the covenent of the Blood of Christ.

So to me it seems that we should govern our actions. Knowing that all our righteousness is a filthy rag, but don't let it interfere with our spiritual inner man. Yes, all things are lawful for me to do, but I don't do them because I know the consiquences and when they interfere with my walk in Christ, that's where the line has to be drawn!

Slider:

Yes, some good thoughts there, too. John's Epistle is very instructive about not loving the world.

Re. the example that Carolyn gave, I personally would extrapolate that it's no-one else's business if she hypothetically might like the idea of smoking a very occasional cigarette, although I would not advocate it, and would probably think it wise to be cautious about those before whom it might - again, hypothetically - be done.

So much of the culture of fundamentalist/evangelical church life, however, seems sometimes to be about getting involved in other people's personal matters. At least, so it seems. Maybe I'm wrong. I hope I am.

Blessings.

 

[Davies]

farouk,

When we explain the Gospel to non-believers, I'd say there is nothing more personal then that. People are sinful for not believing in Jesus, and yet if we encourage them, exhort them to believe, wouldn't you agree that's getting involved in their personal matters? Yes, we don't force it upon them, yet, we don't walk away from a witnessing encounter allowing the person to believe they are safe in their sins. I suppose if you want to be cruel, don't involve yourself with non-believers.

As far as the Christian's liberty, we should be all willing to forsake that which offends a brother because we wouldn't want to allow our liberty in Christ to be a stumbling block. Then there is always some of us, gulp, that sin and impose personal matters or expectations on others instead of being long suffering towards those who have a long way to go in the sanctification process. Liberty is not freedom to do whatever we want even if it's not sinful. I confess to struggling in this area.

- Davies

 

[Blev]

I have noticed that “Christian Liberty,†by some, has been used as a means to circumvent certain other areas of the bible that call for us to be holy.

In my opinion, this has caused the church to conform to the culture, instead of the church transforming the culture.

Before Paul taught on the subject of Christian liberty, he taught that we are not to conform to the world, but to be holy. He said:
I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. (Rom 12:1-2, ESV)
<o:p</o
Be blessed.
<o:p</o
Toby

Right on

 

[farouk]

farouk,

When we explain the Gospel to non-believers, I'd say there is nothing more personal then that. People are sinful for not believing in Jesus, and yet if we encourage them, exhort them to believe, wouldn't you agree that's getting involved in their personal matters? Yes, we don't force it upon them, yet, we don't walk away from a witnessing encounter allowing the person to believe they are safe in their sins. I suppose if you want to be cruel, don't involve yourself with non-believers.

As far as the Christian's liberty, we should be all willing to forsake that which offends a brother because we wouldn't want to allow our liberty in Christ to be a stumbling block. Then there is always some of us, gulp, that sin and impose personal matters or expectations on others instead of being long suffering towards those who have a long way to go in the sanctification process. Liberty is not freedom to do whatever we want even if it's not sinful. I confess to struggling in this area.

- Davies

Davies:

The key is the difference between interfering and God's gracious intervening.

The Epistles repeatedly caution against busybodying and interfering in other people's matters.

But in contrast, we can be thankful that God graciously intervened in our lives, 'even when we were dead in sins' (Ephesians 2.5), and by His grace we, too, in the Gospel, can be instruments of blessing in the lives of others.

I think somewhere in there would lie the essential distinction.

Blessings.

 

[Davies]

Davies:

The key is the difference between interfering and God's gracious intervening.

The Epistles repeatedly caution against busybodying and interfering in other people's matters.

But in contrast, we can be thankful that God graciously intervened in our lives, 'even when we were dead in sins' (Ephesians 2.5), and by His grace we, too, in the Gospel, can be instruments of blessing in the lives of others.

I think somewhere in there would lie the essential distinction.

Blessings.

farouk,

I think it's difficult to judge someone's motives. Someone could be obeying God, and they can be perceived as legalistic. Another person could be taking advantage of his liberty, and be seen as antinomian.

With regard to Carolyn's thoughts, you said, "Everyone is going to define for oneself a sense of Christian liberty which probably differs from that of other Christians in some way or another, I guess." So, should we allow one's sense of Christian liberty to be a stumbling block? I think we would both agree, no. Did Paul view the idea of giving up meat interference from the weaker brother? No, rather it is an occasion to love your neighbor. When we decide to exercise our Christian liberty without regard for others, it shows a lack of contentment found in one's salvation, because the gift (liberty) has become more valuable than the Giver.

- Davies

 

[tandemcpl]

farouk,

I think it's difficult to judge someone's motives. Someone could be obeying God, and they can be perceived as legalistic. Another person could be taking advantage of his liberty, and be seen as antinomian.

With regard to Carolyn's thoughts, you said, "Everyone is going to define for oneself a sense of Christian liberty which probably differs from that of other Christians in some way or another, I guess." So, should we allow one's sense of Christian liberty to be a stumbling block? I think we would both agree, no. Did Paul view the idea of giving up meat interference from the weaker brother? No, rather it is an occasion to love your neighbor. When we decide to exercise our Christian liberty without regard for others, it shows a lack of contentment found in one's salvation, because the gift (liberty) has become more valuable than the Giver.

- Davies

Nicely Said.

 

[CORE]

farouk,

I think it's difficult to judge someone's motives. Someone could be obeying God, and they can be perceived as legalistic. Another person could be taking advantage of his liberty, and be seen as antinomian.

With regard to Carolyn's thoughts, you said, "Everyone is going to define for oneself a sense of Christian liberty which probably differs from that of other Christians in some way or another, I guess." So, should we allow one's sense of Christian liberty to be a stumbling block? I think we would both agree, no. Did Paul view the idea of giving up meat interference from the weaker brother? No, rather it is an occasion to love your neighbor. When we decide to exercise our Christian liberty without regard for others, it shows a lack of contentment found in one's salvation, because the gift (liberty) has become more valuable than the Giver.

- Davies

Yes Davies, I absolutely agree and believe that's what Scripture teaches.

I also believe there is another extreme.

For example...If I feel it is wrong for me personally to eat meat, then it is a sin for me to do so...but I would not have the right to force that conviction onto everyone else and call them disobedient sinners if they don't live out their christian life as I do.

Romans 14:1-3
"As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. <sup class="versenum">2 </sup>One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. <sup class="versenum">3 </sup>Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him."

 

[Davies]

Yes Davies, I absolutely agree and believe that's what Scripture teaches.

I also believe there is another extreme.

For example...If I feel it is wrong for me personally to eat meat, then it is a sin for me to do so...but I would not have the right to force that conviction onto everyone else and call them disobedient sinners if they don't live out their christian life as I do.

Romans 14:1-3
"As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. <sup class="versenum">2 </sup>One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. <sup class="versenum">3 </sup>Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him."

Good morning CORE,

This may be the line farouk is talking about that get's crossed, when one despises another. Rather, we see the emphasis is on God in the quoted Scripture. This application can be used for anything: tattoos, piercings, jewelry, alcohol, and now add marijuana... How many people do you know who are established in their faith who would understand this? Who can enjoy the things of the world, and not lose sight of Jesus? I was looking for a different verse, and it has slipped me, but here is one equally relevant:
1 John 2:15

New King James Version (NKJV)

Do Not Love the World

<sup class="versenum">15 </sup>Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.


I imagine ourselves like children. We have a little knowledge. We live in a world so big, and with forces unknown (spiritual forces), we need to walk carefully. Where is the line where liberty takes on the cloak of self-will? If you know that, then I'd call you a wise man or woman.

- Davies

 

[farouk]

Yes Davies, I absolutely agree and believe that's what Scripture teaches.

I also believe there is another extreme.

For example...If I feel it is wrong for me personally to eat meat, then it is a sin for me to do so...but I would not have the right to force that conviction onto everyone else and call them disobedient sinners if they don't live out their christian life as I do.

Romans 14:1-3
"As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. <sup class="versenum">2 </sup>One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. <sup class="versenum">3 </sup>Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him."

CORE:

Hi: yes, the the highlighted part of what you said, above, is sometimes overlooked.

Busybodying is self-centered, but sometimes the fundamentalist mindset makes a virtue out of it.

 

[Davies]

I have noticed that “Christian Liberty,” by some, has been used as a means to circumvent certain other areas of the bible that call for us to be holy.

In my opinion, this has caused the church to conform to the culture, instead of the church transforming the culture.

Before Paul taught on the subject of Christian liberty, he taught that we are not to conform to the world, but to be holy. He said:
I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. (Rom 12:1-2, ESV)
<o:p
Be blessed.
<o:p
Toby</o

Hi Toby,

The point you have made is the point the church today ignores. The self has become more important than anything else. Instead of thinking others better than ourselves, we strive to be better people, confusing this for sanctification. I believe sanctification is as John the Baptist said.
John 3:30

New King James Version (NKJV)

<sup class="versenum">30 </sup>He must increase, but I must decrease.


Though CORE is right to point out that we shouldn't quarrel over opinions, keeping God the priority should not be disputed even when it comes to our liberty in Jesus.

- Davies</o

 

[farouk]

Hi Toby,

The point you have made is the point the church today ignores. The self has become more important than anything else. Instead of thinking others better than ourselves, we strive to be better people, confusing this for sanctification. I believe sanctification is as John the Baptist said.
John 3:30

New King James Version (NKJV)

<sup class="versenum">30 </sup>He must increase, but I must decrease.


Though CORE is right to point out that we shouldn't quarrel over opinions, keeping God the priority should not be disputed even when it comes to our liberty in Jesus.

- Davies</o[/FONT][/SIZE]

Davies:

Good post, also.

(This is proving to be a very live thread.)

Blessings.

 

[Davies]

farouk,

Shall I be the first? Are we getting to the CORE of the issue? Sorry, I'm a sucker for puns. The worse they are, the better.

- Davies

 

[farouk]

farouk,

Shall I be the first? Are we getting to the CORE of the issue? Sorry, I'm a sucker for puns. The worse they are, the better.

- Davies

Davies:

The sucking here would refer to inhaling from the preferably low tar tobacco.