Christophanies: True or False?

[wavy]

Is Christ truly the "angel of YHWH" that appeared throughout the OT scriptures?

 

[TruthMiner]

Is Christ truly the "angel of YHWH" that appeared throughout the OT scriptures?

Well if he is then he would be an angel.

 

[mutzrein]

Is Christ truly the "angel of YHWH" that appeared throughout the OT scriptures?

Christ is the Word of God, the only begotten son of the Father. He is above all of the angels.

 

[Georges]

I personally think he (preincarnate Jesus) is the Memra of OT Judaism, or that he and the Memra are tied together somehow....In Judaism, the Memra is God's representative when dealing with man personally...If the Memra is acting in the capacity of a Messenger then he would be an Angel of the Lord, if not The Angel of the Lord.

I also think the Spirit of Messiah is the Memra. Jesus is the human/physical manifestation of the Memra.

 

[TruthMiner]

I personally think he (preincarnate Jesus) is the Memra of OT Judaism, or that he and the Memra are tied together somehow....In Judaism, the Memra is God's representative when dealing with man personally...If the Memra is acting in the capacity of a Messenger then he would be an Angel of the Lord, if not The Angel of the Lord.

I also think the Spirit of Messiah is the Memra. Jesus is the human/physical manifestation of the Memra.

There seems to be merit in that idea. Really, this is pretty much the same notion as the Logos.

The way I understand the relationship of the Logos to the angels is to use an analogy. Think of the Logos as a dictionary and each word in that dictionary is one angel. Or the Logos is like a whole puzzle, and an angel is one piece. Or the Logos is like the sum of all knowledge, and an angel one concept. Or like a person with various thoughts and ideas, each one being an angel. Analogies used only to comprehend this relationship. The Logos is God's full expression. Angels are but partial expressions. And this is why both are related to creation which is an expression of God.

 

[ChristineES]

Jesus can be called "The Word of God". I believe this is the same Word that spoke to Moses at the burning bush.
Jesus is the Son of God, The Son is equal to The Father. An angel would not be equal to God.

 

[Georges]

I personally think he (preincarnate Jesus) is the Memra of OT Judaism, or that he and the Memra are tied together somehow....In Judaism, the Memra is God's representative when dealing with man personally...If the Memra is acting in the capacity of a Messenger then he would be an Angel of the Lord, if not The Angel of the Lord.

I also think the Spirit of Messiah is the Memra. Jesus is the human/physical manifestation of the Memra.

There seems to be merit in that idea. Really, this is pretty much the same notion as the Logos.

John was Jewish...Logos is the closest Greek word that describes the Jewish concept of the Memra....As I've stated in many, many posts....read this article on the Memra and see how many descriptive functions apply to Jesus.. http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... arch=Memra

The way I understand the relationship of the Logos to the angels is to use an analogy.
Think of the Logos as a dictionary and each word in that dictionary is one angel. Or the Logos is like a whole puzzle, and an angel is one piece. Or the Logos is like the sum of all knowledge, and an angel one concept. Or like a person with various thoughts and ideas, each one being an angel. Analogies used only to comprehend this relationship. The Logos is God's full expression. Angels are but partial expressions. And this is why both are related to creation which is an expression of God.

 

[Georges]

Jesus can be called "The Word of God". I believe this is the same Word that spoke to Moses at the burning bush.
Jesus is the Son of God, The Son is equal to The Father. An angel would not be equal to God.

Christine...by definition, Christ in bodily form was/is an angel......

An agnel simply means "Messenger"....Jesus was/is a messenger of in that sense of the word....As the Memra of the OT he would have been a Messenger (i.e. to Moses) as The Messenger of the Lord".

And, an angel could be seen as God by the Law of Agency.....In a nutshell, If God gives permission to that entity (ie Angel), to act on his behalf, then the Angel according to the Law of Agency, will be percieved as if the person is dealing with God himself....This is how Christ and the Memra can be seen as God.

 

[Soma-Sight]

Christ is the Angel Michael..... :

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

Jesus Christ is not an angel, He is God in the flesh. He is fully man and fully God. He is the second person of the Holy Trinity.

 

[mutzrein]

Jesus can be called "The Word of God". I believe this is the same Word that spoke to Moses at the burning bush.
Jesus is the Son of God, The Son is equal to The Father. An angel would not be equal to God.

Christine. What did Jesus say about His relationship with the Father?

 

[Georges]

Jesus Christ is not an angel, He is God in the flesh. He is fully man and fully God. He is the second person of the Holy Trinity.

Uh huh.....well anyway.....all I can offer is this.....

Lexicon Results for mal'ak (Strong's 04397)
Hebrew for 04397

Pronunciation Guide
mal'ak {mal-awk'}

TWOT Reference Root Word
TWOT - 1068a from an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy
Part of Speech
n m
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) messenger, representative

a) messenger

b) angel

c) the theophanic angel


and Jesus....

Jhn 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

Sounds like Jesus is a representative spokesman to me...a messenger. In the Jewish "Law of Agency" Jesus as the Agent is representing God by his own admition....That's pretty clear and hard to argue against.

Jhn 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.


As was the Memra in the OT God's representative when dealing directly with man...so to is Jesus, as God's representative (Law of Agency), the Memra of God in the flesh.

 

[ChristineES]

Jesus can be called "The Word of God". I believe this is the same Word that spoke to Moses at the burning bush.
Jesus is the Son of God, The Son is equal to The Father. An angel would not be equal to God.

Christine. What did Jesus say about His relationship with the Father?

He said He and The Father were one.(John 10:30) I didn't want to start another conterversy in this thread. :

 

[mutzrein]

Jesus can be called "The Word of God". I believe this is the same Word that spoke to Moses at the burning bush.
Jesus is the Son of God, The Son is equal to The Father. An angel would not be equal to God.

Christine. What did Jesus say about His relationship with the Father?

He said He and The Father were one.(John 10:30) I didn't want to start another conterversy in this thread. :

Yes I didn't really expect you to quote a verse that blows your theory of the son being equal to the Father. John 14:28 says " . . . for the Father is greater than I."

End of story.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Christ is the Angel Michael..... :

I agree that there IS a scriptural basis for this. But, I don't want to steal your thunder. Could you present the Bible texts for this claim?Otherwise there might be some who see this as just another 'Adventist thing'. :-?

 

[ChristineES]

Yes I didn't really expect you to quote a verse that blows your theory of the son being equal to the Father. John 14:28 says " . . . for the Father is greater than I."

He said "greater" not "better." ( I am kidding, really, no replies.: ) I have been reading the OT too much, maybe it is better to go back and read the NT yet another time (I have read it dozens of times, and each time I find something I did not notice before or just plain forgot). 8-)

 

[wavy]

Jesus Christ is not an angel, He is God in the flesh. He is fully man and fully God. He is the second person of the Holy Trinity.

I cannot find this in my bible.

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

The concept of the Trinity is derived by looking at the whole of scripture. It is true the term “Trinity†is not in Scripture but the concept most definitely is there.

Also consider the following explanations from carm.org:
What is the Trinity?
Response to criticism of "What is the Trinity?"
The Trinity Chart
Another Look at the Trinity
Yet another Look at the Trinity: The Plurality Study

 

[wavy]

Sure, but manmade dogmas to help explain it are used to teach it. The bible doesn't teach it. The bible doesn't want us to believe in the "second person of the holy trinity".

As John says,

John 20:31
But these are written, that ye might believe that Yeshua is the Messiah, the Son of Elohim; and that believing ye might have life through his name