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Bible Study Circumcision / Uncircumcision....... Huh?

(Okay so I pmed ReecesPieces)

One of the best applications of the issue of circumcision in the New Testament is the idea that the flesh is unprofitable: and this is a strong message in Romans 8.
 
Well Ive been kind of wondering by circumcising Timothy, Paul proved that the Mosaic dispensation of circumcision had not been abrogated. But on the other hand, he wrote to the Galatians "Behold, I, Paul, say unto you, that, if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing; for I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law."

If circumcision was of no avail for Timothy, why did Paul circumcise him?

Howeve if the sacred act of circumcision was indispensable, and bound the man fully through the covenant of Abraham to adhere to the commandments and the laws of Moses. How is it that Paul deemed it perfectly consistent to break by precept those very teachings of Moses?
 
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Kumi Ori said:
Well Ive been kind of wondering, Paul, by circumcising Timothy, proved that the Mosaic dispensation of circumcision had not been abrogated. But on the other hand, he wrote to the Galatians "Behold, I, Paul, say unto you, that, if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing; for I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law."

If circumcision were of no avail for Timothy, why did Paul circumcise him?

Howeve if the sacred act was indispensable, and bound the man fully through the covenant of Abraham to adhere to the commandments and the laws of Moses. How is it that Paul deemed it perfectly consistent to break by precept those very teachings of Moses?
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K O:

It was of no value to Timothy in terms of his justification before God. Galatians and Romans teach that the New Testament believer is under grace.

However, he was around a lot of Jews, who knew he was of partly Greek parentage, and the Jews would not listen to him.

So, Paul circumcised Timothy as an opportunity for the Gospel, so that Timothy could communicate the message more easily.

It wasn't an obligation. (In Acts, Peter was deceived by those who taught that you needed to be circumcised to be saved; Paul opposed him to his face, we read. Later, Peter understood his mistake.)

Timothy received circumcision voluntarily as a pragmatic matter.
 
farouk said:
K O:

It was of no value to Timothy in terms of his justification before God. Galatians and Romans teach that the New Testament believer is under grace.

However, he was around a lot of Jews, who knew he was of partly Greek parentage, and the Jews would not listen to him.

So, Paul circumcised Timothy as an opportunity for the Gospel, so that Timothy could communicate the message more easily.

It wasn't an obligation. (In Acts, Peter was deceived by those who taught that you needed to be circumcised to be saved; Paul opposed him to his face, we read. Later, Peter understood his mistake.)

Timothy received circumcision voluntarily as a pragmatic matter.
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So in a nutshell what you're saying it was an attempt to persuade the people of Israel to abandon a covenant which the first founders of the Christian religion actually confirmed by their own actions? Ahh no sir, I dont buy it, their actions do not make any sense.

This does though it and its pretty clear too.

Thus says Yehovah: O house of Israel, let it be and end to all your abominations, In that you have brought into my sanctuary foreigners (gentiles), uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in my sanctuary, to defile it, my house, when you offer my bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken my covenant because of all your abominations. And you have not kept the charge of my holy things; but you have set keepers of my charge in my sanctuary to please yourselves.
Thus says Yehovah: No foreigner, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, of all the foreigners who are among the people of Israel, shall enter into my sanctuary.

Ezekiel 44:7-9

In Jeremiah I read some of Israel is to be lumped in and punished with the uncircumcised flesh because their heart (Israel's) was not circumcised too.

Behold, the days come, says the Lord, that I will punish all those who are circumcised with the uncircumcised; Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the Ammonites, and Moab, and all who dwell in the wilderness; for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all of the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart

(Emphasis mine)


Farouk i need to make one thing perfectly clear. I do not abide in the commandments as an attempt to justify anything. It is for me simply a matter of the heart to do them because I love my King and what better way is there to prove that love? He doesnt want blood and sacrifice He wants us to repent and seek His mercy to turn away from our sin and follow His holy righteous and good will for us. I wish you all could see that.
 
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Kumi Ori said:
So in a nutshell what you're saying it was an attempt to persuade the people of Israel to abandon a covenant which the first founders of the Christian religion actually confirmed by their own actions? Ahh no sir, I dont buy it. Because I find words breathed by God to be contrary to certain religious doctrine and explanations.

Thus says Yehovah: O house of Israel, let it be and end to all your abominations, In that you have brought into my sanctuary foreigners (gentiles), uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in my sanctuary, to defile it, my house, when you offer my bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken my covenant because of all your abominations. And you have not kept the charge of my holy things; but you have set keepers of my charge in my sanctuary to please yourselves.
Thus says Yehovah: No foreigner, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, of all the foreigners who are among the people of Israel, shall enter into my sanctuary.

Ezekiel 44:7-9

In Jeremiah a similar statement is made

Behold, the days come, says the Lord, that I will punish all those who are circumcised with the uncircumcised; Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the Ammonites, and Moab, and all who dwell in the wilderness; for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all of the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart.


(Emphasis mine)
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K O:

"But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."
(Romans 2:29)
 
farouk said:
K O:

"But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."
(Romans 2:29)
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True, but according to the law of moses and the descriptions I posted above from Ezekiel and Jeremiah they will also be circumcised in the flesh and must be circumcised in the heart as well. A child 8 days old is circumcised he has no understanding or concept why. That circumcision in later years is not a get out of jail free card it will not profit him unless he also circumcises his heart and learns and lives by his Creators torah.

Yehovah says through His prophet Jeremiah. Those of Israel who live rebellious lives (uncircumsised heart) though they be circumcised in the flesh are punished with the stranger/foreigner (gentile) of uncircumcised flesh.

Have a joyful Sabbath.




Btw sorry about earlier post. Seems I was still editing it while you replied, bad habit of mine.
 
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ReesesPieces said:
What does this mean in the bible especially in the book of Romans? :help


Thanks!
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Hi Reeses,

It may help if you give us the particular passages your referring to. I'm assuming your talking about Romans 2?

First off, Paul is writing to gentiles in Rome in a time where Jew's, including Jewish Christians were allowed to move back to Rome and because of their cultural differences, Paul did not want the gentile Christians to look down on their Jewish brothers in Christ, nor did he want what occurred in Galatia where the Jewish Christians tried to bind Gentiles to Jewish law or customs.

Circumcision was a sign of a covenant that God made with Abraham that Abraham would be the father of many nations, and Paul plays off this idea heavily in the book of Romans.

In Romans 2, we see that Paul is talking about the Covenant at Mt. Sinia which occurred directly after God drove the Israelites out of Egypt where Circumcision was also part of that covenant. However, Moses not only commanded Circumcision of the flesh, but he also commanded circumcision of the heart.

Deuteronomy 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Deuteronomy 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Romans 2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Paul is setting up his argument that we are saved by faith, not adherence to the law (We are under a new covenant, Jer 31:31). And no, Paul is not against the law as some would make his letters out to be.
 
What about here?

See what large letters I use as I write to you with my own hand! Those who want to impress people by means of the flesh are trying to compel you to be circumcised. The only reason they do this is to avoid being persecuted for the cross of Christ. Not even those who are circumcised keep the law, yet they want you to be circumcised that they may boast about your circumcision in the flesh. May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation. Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule—to the Israel of God. From now on, let no one cause me trouble, for I bear on my body the marks of Jesus. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brothers and sisters. Amen. (Galatians 6:11-18 NIV)
 
StoveBolts said:
Hi Reeses,

It may help if you give us the particular passages your referring to. I'm assuming your talking about Romans 2?

First off, Paul is writing to gentiles in Rome in a time where Jew's, including Jewish Christians were allowed to move back to Rome and because of their cultural differences, Paul did not want the gentile Christians to look down on their Jewish brothers in Christ, nor did he want what occurred in Galatia where the Jewish Christians tried to bind Gentiles to Jewish law or customs.

Circumcision was a sign of a covenant that God made with Abraham that Abraham would be the father of many nations, and Paul plays off this idea heavily in the book of Romans.

In Romans 2, we see that Paul is talking about the Covenant at Mt. Sinia which occurred directly after God drove the Israelites out of Egypt where Circumcision was also part of that covenant. However, Moses not only commanded Circumcision of the flesh, but he also commanded circumcision of the heart.

Deuteronomy 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Deuteronomy 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Romans 2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Paul is setting up his argument that we are saved by faith, not adherence to the law (We are under a new covenant, Jer 31:31). And no, Paul is not against the law as some would make his letters out to be.
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If I understand you correctly I agree wholeheartedly with you. Truely we are saved by the grace of God. As far as Yehovahs Torah it is not a means of justification it was never intended to be that, it is our Gods instruction and wisdom for us to to live by, it sets us apart from everyone else when we do and others will know we are His. One of the expressed duties of the holy spirit is to write those instructions on the tablets of our hearts. That we might do them from our heart out of love for Yehovah King and Redeemer of Yisrael. Not because we are trying to impress Him.

Peace to you SteveBolts
 
Jman96 said:
Well, you said:

Moses not only commanded Circumcision of the flesh, but he also commanded circumcision of the heart.

Then later the bible says

Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation. (Galatians 6:15 NIV)

I read this today and I can't fully grasp what this is talking about.
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Sorry for the delay, I should have replied much earlier but I got caught up in a few other threads and didn't allocate my time to reply to this one.


It is good to keep in mind that Paul is writing Romans well after writing Galatians and he is addressing two separate issues. In Galatians, he is dealing with Jewish Christians who are imposing circumcision upon Gentile Christians because they are getting pressured to bring the gentiles into the old covenant, not the new. Paul puts it this way:

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

and

Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh?

Paul then talks about the faith of Abraham, which is template in all his writings as well as the other epistles.

This is also a very important section.

Galatians 3:21-22 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could make alive, verily righteousness would have been of the law. But the scriptures shut up all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

We see here that Paul is not pitting the Law of God against the promises of God. He is simply saying that salvation comes by faith through believing where as some of the Jews believed that one had to work for their salvation, and circumcision was mandatory for the Jews. There are also stories in the OT where gentiles who embraced the Jewish faith had to be circumcised. Paul is making clear that the Promise of God to Abraham is for all people through faith, not works and I would add that under the new covenant (Jer 31:31) that the gentiles are not bound by the same covenant as the Jews from Mr. Sinai.

If we go back to the passage you posted, Paul also says,

Galatians 6:12 As many as desire to make a fair show in the flesh, they compel you to be circumcised; only that they may not be persecuted for the cross of Christ.

It is not that Paul disagrees with Circumcision, but he puts it in it's proper place. There is no need to force a gentile to become circumcised and a gentile should not be brought up under that yoke (teaching).

Now then, going back to Romans. Paul had learned much from Galatia, and I don't think he wanted a repeat. Paul wrote Romans at a time where both Jews and Jewish Christians were allowed to come back to Rome after being persecuted and exiled from Rome by it's former Cesar. For the Roman gentiles, the Jews were already frowned upon and they made no distinction between a Jew and a Jewish Christian. In the early portion of Romans, Paul is laying the groundwork to eliminate the possibility of what happened in Galatia, as well as trying to level the playing field that all are equal in Christ since again, most Roman Gentiles viewed the Jews as outcast and second hand citizens.

Romans 3:29-31 Or is God the God of Jews only? is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yea, of Gentiles also: if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith. Do we then make the law of none effect through faith? God forbid: nay, we establish the law.
 
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