Colossians 1:20

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Colossians 1:13-20 reads as follows:

He drew us to Himself from out of the power of darkness and transferred us into the Kingdom of the Son of His love. 14 And the ransom price that frees us from our sins has been paid through him. 15For, he's the image of the invisible God and the firstborn of all creation.16 Through him everything in heaven and on the earth was created, both the things that are visible and those that are invisible. Everything has been created through him and for him, regardless of whether they are thrones, or rulerships, or governments, or powers. 17He was before everything and everything came into existence through him. 18 He's the head of the body of the congregation; he's the beginning and the first one to be born from the dead, so that he would be first in everything.
19[God] saw that it was good for him to be complete in everything, 20 and used [Jesus] to bring everything back into a good relationship with Himself, by making peace through his blood [that was shed] on the pole, regardless of whether these things are heavenly or earthly.

We know that angels sinned just as man has, but if you are like me, you've been taught that Jesus died to save man and that his resurrection gives man the hope of eternal life. We have also been led to believe that angels are immortal despite the fact that the Bible say that God ALONE has immortality. So, having said this, is it likely and probably that Jesus died not only to redeem mankind, but also the fallen heavenly messengers as well?

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

1 Corinthians 6:2-3 says that the Lord's elect will judge the world as well as the angels.

Don’t you know that the Holy Ones will judge the arrangement? And if you’re going to judge the arrangement, aren’t you qualified to judge small matters?
3 Why, don’t you know that we’re going to judge the messengers… so, why not [judge] matters that have to do with this life?

Doesn't it seem to imply that some of them (angels) will be saved?

 

[AKJVReader]

So, having said this, is it likely and probably that Jesus died not only to redeem mankind, but also the fallen heavenly messengers as well?

Jesus died so that man can be redeemed, not messengers or angels. There are no verses in the KJV Bible that say that fallen heavenly messengers can be saved.

[FONT=arial,helvatica]"And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day." (Jude 1:6).
There is no mention of the fallen angels being able to be saved, it says here "everlasting chains under darkness"

[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvatica]"Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?" (1 Corinthians 6:3)
Any judging of angels will be done according to God's Word.
[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvatica]
Jesus came to earth for the sake of men, not for the sake of angels. The angels helped Jesus when He was on earth, Jesus did not have to help angels who are created beings and messengers.
[/FONT]

 

[Forgiven83]

Jesus died so that man can be redeemed, not messengers or angels. There are no verses in the KJV Bible that say that fallen heavenly messengers can be saved.

[FONT=arial,helvatica]"And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day." (Jude 1:6).
[FONT=arial,helvatica]There is no mention of the fallen angels being able to be saved, it says here "everlasting chains under darkness"[/FONT]

[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvatica]"Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?" (1 Corinthians 6:3)[/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvatica]Any judging of angels will be done according to God's Word.[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvatica]Jesus came to earth for the sake of men, not for the sake of angels. The angels helped Jesus when He was on earth, Jesus did not have to help angels who are created beings and messengers.[/FONT]

Amen :biglol.
II Peter 2:4
For if God spared not the angels, that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment:"

Peter also wrote of the angels;
I Peter 1:12
"...preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven: which things the angels desire to look into .
God's angels desire to understand salvation as we do, but His angel are not fallen so they can not know salvation, and the angels that sinned are reserved to judgment.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Could not the same have been said of man that those texts say of angels if Jesus were not in the picture? Was it not the sacrifice of Jesus that made man's redemption possible? Is there not enough power in Jesus' blood to save even the beings in the spirit realm who transgressed?
Again, I ask these question because the text of Colossians APPEARS to leave those possibilites open. For what else heavenly aside from fallen spirit beings could the text be referring to as it tells us that "things that are heavenly" were brought BACK into a good relationship with God through Jesus? Someone please address that question.

 

[AKJVReader]

Is there not enough power in Jesus' blood to save even the beings in the spirit realm who transgressed?

[SIZE=-1]"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption." (1 Corinthians 15:50)

The beings in the spirit realm who transgressed dont have flesh and blood. The "spirit realm" is different in a sense to the physical realm here.

[/SIZE]"And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven." (KJV)

These "things" are probably people, Enoch and Elijah were people in the Old Testament and they went to Heaven. Also these "things" could be God's Word, it is in the Earth and it is in Heaven.

"Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." (1 John 5:5-8)

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

These "things" are probably people, Enoch and Elijah were people in the Old Testament and they went to Heaven. Also these "things" could be God's Word, it is in the Earth and it is in Heaven.

I do not see where scripture supports the idea that the 'heavenly' things could possibly be people considering that people are fleshly and these words of Jesus in John 3:13. In this passage Jesus tells the reader that "no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man."

In the case of Enoch that you mentioned, we are not told what became of him only that he did not see death. We also know that he was a righteous man who "walked with God" indicating that the status of his relationship with God was already a good one.
As for Elijah, scripture doesn't tell us he went to Heaven. What it says is that he was taken into the SKY in a fiery chariot. That 'vehicle' in all likelihood did not take him away from the earth but simply to another place on the earth for even after this event, Elijah was sending letters to royalty which means he was still alive and on the earth.

 

[Nathan]

Could not the same have been said of man that those texts say of angels if Jesus were not in the picture? Was it not the sacrifice of Jesus that made man's redemption possible? Is there not enough power in Jesus' blood to save even the beings in the spirit realm who transgressed?
Again, I ask these question because the text of Colossians APPEARS to leave those possibilites open. For what else heavenly aside from fallen spirit beings could the text be referring to as it tells us that "things that are heavenly" were brought BACK into a good relationship with God through Jesus? Someone please address that question.

I think the "reconciliation" spoken of is not the same as "saving". If that makes sense. I think the "reconciliation spoken of in verse 20 is that of "brining back to a former state of harmony". And we know that this does not bear the same weight as "salvation" does. Because we know that the very creation 'groans', but yet its not the same as our salvation.

Rom 8:20-23 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

Interesting choice of words for Paul. So obviously we know that the tree's do not receive "salvation", but at the same time we get a glimpse of just how 'mortal' we are if we are likened to the creation itself and the creation likened to us.

So the "heavenly things" that are brought back, I believe, speak to the universe around us and just an overall re-creation that will take place. Its seen as a 'repeat' of the flood.

Gen 6:6-7 And the LORD was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. So the LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them."

So He concluded man and beast alike. Considering to "blot them out". But then He see's Noah. And chooses to save him. And after the 'destruction' of all the other things, and through the destruction of the other things, He "reconciles" the things saved unto Himself; by the Ark.

So in a sense, the animals were "saved" in the exact manner that Noah was. But the difference is undeniable that His relationship is different with different creatures.

I think we all too often think of ourselves WAY to high above everything else. Yes, its true we are different, but Jesus stated it plainly that God knows even when a sparrow falls from the sky. We are ALL His creatures, and creation.

As far as the angels go? I think that the Bible is clear that they have already been 'predestined' to their judgement. Have any "fallen" since then? Who knows, but the salvation we receive is definitely different than that of the overall "reconciliation" that took place with the event of Christ's death.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Interesting Nathan. It is very reasonable to believe that the 'heavenly things' mentioned may not be talking about 'spirit beings' but rather the cosmos/universe as a whole. My issue, (not really issue, but more of a question about this conclusion) is if the 'heavenly things' speak of the universe as a whole, why is there a distinction between those things and the 'things that are earthly'?

 

[Nathan]

Interesting Nathan. It is very reasonable to believe that the 'heavenly things' mentioned may not be talking about 'spirit beings' but rather the cosmos/universe as a whole. My issue, (not really issue, but more of a question about this conclusion) is if the 'heavenly things' speak of the universe as a whole, why is there a distinction between those things and the 'things that are earthly'?

That question is a lot easier than the one before.

While I believe it speaks to the things of heaven as the cosmos/universe, I also believe it speaks to things of the spiritual nature. But its like the example given, the reconciliation is liken to after the flood when God gave the rainbow. He set His covenant with man and with animals. But does that mean that the animals had the same standing with God that man did? No. It just means they were a "part" of the reconciliation.

Man is the ONLY creation/creature that bears the image of God. Nothing else does, not even the angles. So salvation is for man and man alone. Why? Because man and man alone has a 'spirit' from God. That is what makes us 'unique'. All the other creatures/creations can be re-created. But man cannot. That is why man needs to have reconciliation and redemption. Everything else just needs reconciliation. I dare say you will not find where anything else is ever spoken of as "redeemed". Once a man is 'destroyed' he is no more and will never be again. This is the relationship factor that God has with man verses all other created things.

 

[RoadDebris]

. We have also been led to believe that angels are immortal despite the fact that the Bible say that God ALONE has immortality.[/COLOR]

The Bible teaches the God is the only infinite being:

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty." - Rev. 1:8

Infinite and immortal are not synonyms. We ourselves have immortal souls but we are finite beings, having been created. God is infinite; self-existent.

 

[Alabaster]

That question is a lot easier than the one before.

While I believe it speaks to the things of heaven as the cosmos/universe, I also believe it speaks to things of the spiritual nature. But its like the example given, the reconciliation is liken to after the flood when God gave the rainbow. He set His covenant with man and with animals. But does that mean that the animals had the same standing with God that man did? No. It just means they were a "part" of the reconciliation.

Man is the ONLY creation/creature that bears the image of God. Nothing else does, not even the angles. So salvation is for man and man alone. Why? Because man and man alone has a 'spirit' from God. That is what makes us 'unique'. All the other creatures/creations can be re-created. But man cannot. That is why man needs to have reconciliation and redemption. Everything else just needs reconciliation. I dare say you will not find where anything else is ever spoken of as "redeemed". Once a man is 'destroyed' he is no more and will never be again. This is the relationship factor that God has with man verses all other created things.

Thank you, Nathan. Well said.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

The Bible teaches the God is the only infinite being:

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty." - Rev. 1:8

Infinite and immortal are not synonyms. We ourselves have immortal souls but we are finite beings, having been created. God is infinite; self-existent.

1 Timothy 6 specifically speaks about immortality NOT infinate existence. And nowhere does scripture teach that we have immortal souls. We are told that the souls that sins will die and again that God ALONE has immortality.

 

[Alabaster]

1 Timothy 6 specifically speaks about immortality NOT infinate existence. And nowhere does scripture teach that we have immortal souls. We are told that the souls that sins will die and again that God ALONE has immortality.

The word for soul in that sense means 'person', just like the nautical use, such as in, "There are 250 souls on board", meaning 250 persons. It's a holdover from the old English vernacular.

People die, but our spirits AND souls (mind, will and emotions---our personalities) do not.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

The word for soul in that sense means 'person', just like the nautical use, such as in, "There are 250 souls on board", meaning 250 persons. It's a holdover from the old English vernacular.

People die, but our spirits AND souls (mind, will and emotions---our personalities) do not.

The "person" and the soul are always one and the same.

 

[Alabaster]

The "person" and the soul are always one and the same.

Yet you differentiated by claiming the soul dies when it does not.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Yet you differentiated by claiming the soul dies when it does not.

There you go making unfounded claims. You have no scriptural support for the idea that the soul doesn't or cannot die. Ezekiel 18 and other scriptures like Matthew 5 tell us differently.

 

[Alabaster]

There you go making unfounded claims. You have no scriptural support for the idea that the soul doesn't or cannot die. Ezekiel 18 and other scriptures like Matthew 5 tell us differently.

Our soul is the seat of the mind, will and emotions. It is eternal, and upon death the spirit and soul leave the body.

Often when we read 'soul' in Scripture we have to interpret it as King James would, which is 'person'. It is helpful to check on the original language also, for there are a few words used to denote what 'soul' is referring to. Sometimes it is the spirit, and often it is not.

It is helpful to understand that we are tripartite beings---body, soul and spirit---when we are studying God's word.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Our soul is the seat of the mind, will and emotions. It is eternal, and upon death the spirit and soul leave the body.

Often when we read 'soul' in Scripture we have to interpret it as King James would, which is 'person'. It is helpful to check on the original language also, for there are a few words used to denote what 'soul' is referring to. Sometimes it is the spirit, and often it is not.

It is helpful to understand that we are tripartite beings---body, soul and spirit---when we are studying God's word.

You have unfortunately been misled into the widely held belief that we are "tricodimus". The fact is that we are not and we must understand what the spirit that is in us actually is. This spirit is NOT our undying soul but rather it is either representative of the breath of life that quickens all living creatures and it is this breath that returns to God when we die or it is a reference to our heart, emotions, etc.

 

[Alabaster]

You have unfortunately been misled into the widely held belief that we are "tricodimus". The fact is that we are not and we must understand what the spirit that is in us actually is. This spirit is NOT our undying soul but rather it is either representative of the breath of life that quickens all living creatures and it is this breath that returns to God when we die or it is a reference to our heart, emotions, etc.

Yes we are tripartite beings, having been created in the very image of God, who is also three in one.