[_ Old Earth _] Columnar Basalt/Lava Flows vs The Flood

[jwu]

http://www.engineering.uiowa.edu/~cfd/g ... /flo12.jpg
http://www.uraniumminerals.com/Notes/Images/Lava.jpg
http://www.astro.umd.edu/~miller/Gallery/earth/lava.jpg

Aerial lava flows can be distinguished from aquatic ones, due to the cooling effect of water. One particularly spectacular example is columnar basalt:
http://www.geos.ed.ac.uk/geography/hutton/basalt.jpg (warning, huge image)
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photos/03/80 ... bb201a.jpg

It's typical for basaltic lava flows which cooled on dry land.
This means that such columnar basalt should not be found in strata which supposedly was laid down by the flood. But we do find it in a multitude of strata. E.g. there is such basalt in the upper cretaceous in the Yukon region.

These are some more examples of such basalt covered by some more sediments...too many sediments for it to be post flood, and it's clearly above anything that can be called pre flood:



Miocene basalt:
http://www.cwnp.org/basalt.jpg


http://volcanoes.usgs.gov/yvo/images/20 ... _large.jpg


Huge but very cool:
http://www.cas.sc.edu/geog/gsgdocs/imag ... inting.jpg

Tertiary Columnar Basalt is found in The Giant’s Causeway, NE Antrim
(the brownish layer in particular)

Tertiary Columnar basalt is also found at Fingal's Cave off Mull (UK).

Neogene to Quaternary Columnar Basalt in Mongolia.

Carboniferous Columnar Basalt: Largo Law in Scotland

So all these strata were exposed to air when the lava flows formed, i.e. not they didn't form during a global flood.

 

[jwu]

Welded Tuffs are a similar case. They are rock which formed as the remains of a pyroclastic flow - grains baked together by lots of heat.

It's easy to see that this won't work underwater, for there no such flows can form. Yet tuffs are found in pretty much all strata.

 

[Charlie Hatchett]

These could be easily explained by post-flood igneous intrusions.

P.S.-I'll repond to our ongoing debate concerning C14 dating this weekend.

That ones a bit detailed for answering at work.

 

[jwu]

These could be easily explained by post-flood igneous intrusions.

No, intrusions don't form clear "free flow" layers like that. They look completely different.
Moreover, such columns does not form in intrusions in first instance, as they require the lava to cool from one side, not from all sides. That's the reason why they are standing upright - they cooled slowly from the upside as lava pools under air.

And tuff can't be explained that way at all either, they require pyroclastic flows which only can happen in air.

 

[Charlie Hatchett]

jwu:

No, intrusions don't form clear "free flow" layers like that. They look completely different.
Moreover, such columns does not form in intrusions in first instance, as they require the lava to cool from one side, not from all sides. That's the reason why they are standing upright - they cooled slowly from the upside as lava pools under air.

And tuff can't be explained that way at all either, they require pyroclastic flows which only can happen in air

How do you account for this igneous activity in sedimentary strata, without

invoking the igneous intrusion arguement I used above?

I guess one could hypothesize these flows are Precambrian, but then you

would expect to see signs of heavy erosion.

...when highly fluid molten rock was forced up through fissures in the chalk bed to form an extensive lava plateau. The rapidly cooling lava contracted into hexagonal basaltic columns...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant%27s_Causeway

Giant's Causeway-Cretaceous

...Postpile where it was impounded by a moraine and reached a
thickness of 400 (newer estimate) to 600 (older estimate) feet.
Either way the lava that now makes up the Postpile was near the
bottom of this mass. Because of its unusual thickness, much of the mass of pooled lava cooled slowly and evenly, which is why the columns are so long and so symmetrical (columnar jointing occurs when certain types of lava cool; the joints develop when the lava contracts during the cooling process)....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil%27s_Postpile

Devil' Postpile- Cenozoic

Later, in Permian times, eastern Fife was the seat of further volcanic action, and great numbers of necks or vents pierce the Carboniferous rocks; Largo Law is a striking example. In one of these necks on the shore at Kincraig Point is a fine example of columnar basalt; the Rock and Spindle near St Andrews is another.

http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/F/FI/FIFE.htm

Largo Law-penetrating Carboniferous strata

From the above sources, it appears columnar basalt diagenesis occurs from

igneous intrusions of previously existing strata.

 

[jwu]

From your quotes:

...when highly fluid molten rock was forced up through fissures in the chalk bed to form an extensive lava plateau. The rapidly cooling lava contracted into hexagonal basaltic columns...

It merely reached the surface through fissures and formed a pool at the surface. The columns did not form subterraneously in intrusion channels

Devils Postpile is a dark cliff of columnar basalt near Mammoth Mountain in eastern California. The postpile was created by a lava flow sometime between less than 100,000 years ago (according to current potassium-argon dating) to 700,000 years ago (according to other dating methods). The source of the lava is thought to have originated somewhere near Upper Soda Springs campground at the north end of Pumice Flat on the floor of the Middle Fork of the San Joaquin River and flowed to the site of the Postpile where it was impounded by a moraine and reached a
thickness of 400 (newer estimate) to 600 (older estimate) feet.
Either way the lava that now makes up the Postpile was near the
bottom of this mass. Because of its unusual thickness, much of the mass of pooled lava cooled slowly and evenly, which is why the columns are so long and so symmetrical (columnar jointing occurs when certain types of lava cool; the joints develop when the lava contracts during the cooling process) A glacier later removed much of this mass of rock and left a nicely polished surface on top of the Postpile with very noticeable glacial striations and glacial polish.

You've left out the red part in your original quote. The "bottom of the mass" either refers to the source of the material, or to the upper part being removed by that glacier afterwards. It does not imply that these columns formed with anything else than more of them on top of them, at the surface.
Also note that it talks about lava. Not magma, which would be the term for subterranean molten rock.

Later, in Permian times, eastern Fife was the seat of further volcanic action, and great numbers of necks or vents pierce the Carboniferous rocks; Largo Law is a striking example. In one of these necks on the shore at Kincraig Point is a fine example of columnar basalt; the Rock and Spindle near St Andrews is another.

Necks and vents are vertical, they can reach the surface and cool downwards, thus creating columnar basalt. They however need to cool from one side, from the upside.

Note that the basalt in most of the pictures i had posted in the OP do not show columnar basalt in vents or necks, but flat layers, of streams and pools.


How about the tuffs?

 

[Charlie Hatchett]

You've left out the red part in your original quote. The "bottom of the mass" either refers to the source of the material, or to the upper part being removed by that glacier afterwards. It does not imply that these columns formed with anything else than more of them on top of them, at the surface.
Also note that it talks about lava. Not magma, which would be the term for subterranean molten rock.

But it is upper Cretaceous sedimentary rock that the intrusion penetrated.

And the igneous activity that formed these columns is said to of occurred

during the Quaternary period, after what what I hypothesize is flood strata

(Cambrian to Cretaceous).

Necks and vents are vertical, they can reach the surface and cool downwards, thus creating columnar basalt. They however need to cool from one side, from the upside.

But again, it is igneous intrusion that occurred after the Carboniferous strata

was laid down. This poses no difficulty for the Flood model.

How about the tuffs?

Do you have evidence they contradict my flood model

hypothesis? All I've been able to find are welded tuffs who's diagenesis is

during the Cenozoic.


Thanks for the criticism (seriously). Keep em' coming. I want to see if

these assumptions I've come up with for attempted falsification hold water:

1. All created animals and plants should be present in all sedimentary strata (except those that became extinct before the “floodâ€Â). Continued fossil collection over time should reveal all species in these sedimentary strata (or at least the majority). If not, this would be a falsification of the model.

2. Lack of fossils in the sedimentary strata.

3. Lack of huge layers of sedimentary strata. If it could demonstrated convincingly that Cambrian through Cretaceous strata are not sedimentary, that would be a falsification. These “sedimentary†strata make up 88.5% of the geologic column

4. Lack of massive amounts of organic material, covered by higher strata.

5. An inability to distinguish where one species “stops†and another “ begins†in the fossil record. As fossils continue to be collected over time, there should become a “blur†between species to falsify the flood model.

6. An inability to C14 date the majority of fossils and other organic depositions in these sedimentary strata. If several large strats in different locations around the world are discovered that contain fossils that are C14 “deadâ€Â, this could falsify the hypothesis.

Who knows. We may end up being responsible for developing a new,

scientifically viable theory (with the ability to be falsified). That would be

awesome!

Some of these may have to be tweaked, some additional assumptions may

need to be added...but it's a start.

 

[jwu]

But it is upper Cretaceous sedimentary rock that the intrusion penetrated.

And the igneous activity that formed these columns is said to of occurred

during the Quaternary period, after what what I hypothesize is flood strata

(Cambrian to Cretaceous).

Point taken - however, since the "Devil's Postpile" wasn't one of my examples but brought up by you, my examples still stand. No-one denies the existence of "young" columnar basalt after all.

However, i notice that your identification of the flood strata has changed. In another thread a while ago you said that it was archaean to pleistocene.
That change which excludes anything past the K/T boundary leaves you with lots of sediments and contained fossils to explain. I'll get back to that later though, let's not derail this thread.

You didn't address a single of my examples of columnar basalt.

Do you have evidence they contradict my flood model
hypothesis? All I've been able to find are welded tuffs who's diagenesis is
during the Cenozoic.

Upper cretaceous
http://www.geology.gov.yk.ca/gallery/be ... /colb.html
http://gisws.media.osaka-cu.ac.jp/radio ... aperno=125

Permo-Triassic
http://www.pdac.ca/pdac/conv/2006/pdf/p ... valley.pdf
http://www.em.gov.bc.ca/mining/GeolSurv ... 07/toc.htm

Jurassic
http://www.em.gov.bc.ca/mining/Geolsurv ... 04hleg.htm

 

[Charlie Hatchett]

jwu:

You didn't address a single of my examples of columnar basalt.

Aren't these ones you brought up ( I listed these in my response):

...when highly fluid molten rock was forced up through fissures in the chalk bed to form an extensive lava plateau. The rapidly cooling lava contracted into hexagonal basaltic columns...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant%27s_Causeway



Giant's Causeway-Cretaceous

Quote:
Later, in Permian times, eastern Fife was the seat of further volcanic action, and great numbers of necks or vents pierce the Carboniferous rocks; Largo Law is a striking example. In one of these necks on the shore at Kincraig Point is a fine example of columnar basalt; the Rock and Spindle near St Andrews is another.

http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/F/FI/FIFE.htm


Largo Law-penetrating Carboniferous strata

Quote:
...Postpile where it was impounded by a moraine and reached a
thickness of 400 (newer estimate) to 600 (older estimate) feet.
Either way the lava that now makes up the Postpile was near the
bottom of this mass. Because of its unusual thickness, much of the mass of pooled lava cooled slowly and evenly, which is why the columns are so long and so symmetrical (columnar jointing occurs when certain types of lava cool; the joints develop when the lava contracts during the cooling process)....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil%27s_Postpile


Devil' Postpile- Cenozoic

 

[jwu]

Aren't these ones you brought up ( I listed these in my response):

My bad, they only weren't included in your last post, and i misattributed the largo lake one to the devil's tower.

However, only your own example, the Devil's Postpile, was cenozoic. It was not one of my examples.

The lava of other one "penetrated carnboniferous strata" - but that doesn't make it post-cretaceous. There is the permian,the triassic and the jurassic between the carboniferous and the cretaceous. Even your own reference states that it's the result of permian volcanic activity.

Meanwhile i had edited my last post, to include references to welded tuff in other than cenozoic strata.

 

[Charlie Hatchett]

jwu:

The lava of other one "penetrated carnboniferous strata" - but that doesn't make it post-cretaceous. There is the permian,the triassic and the jurassic between the carboniferous and the cretaceous. Even your own reference states that it's the result of permian volcanic activity.

Meanwhile i had edited my last post, to include references to welded tuff in other than cenozoic strata.

But again, it is igneous intrusion that occurred after the Carboniferous strata

was laid down. This poses no difficulty for the Flood model.

I'll have a look at your welded tuff links...thanks.

 

[jwu]

But again, it is igneous intrusion that occurred after the Carboniferous strata
was laid down. This poses no difficulty for the Flood model.

I cannot follow your line of reasoning there. It may be post-carboniferous, but it's not post-permian, post-triassic, post-jurassic or post-cretaceous. All these follow after the carboniferous. It's in the middle of what you identified as the flood strata.
It's exactly what we expect to see of a lava flow of that age - either its volcano or its fissure penetrates that stratum.

 

[Charlie Hatchett]

...there are many beds of contemporaneous basaltic lavas and tuffs in the Carboniferous rocks; Saline Hill and Knock Hill were the sites of vents, which at that time threw Out ashes; these interbedded rocks are well exposed on the shore between Burntisland and Seafield Tower. There were also many intrusive sheets of dolerite and basalt forced into tne lower Carboniferous rocks, and these now play an important part in the scenery of the county. They form the summits of the Lomond Hills and Benarty, and they may be followed from Ctilt Hill by the Cleish Hills to Blairadam; and again near Dunfermline, Burntisland, Torryburn, Auchtertool and St Andrews. Later, in Permian times, eastern Fife was the seat of further volcanic action, and great numbers of necks or vents pierce the Carboniferous rocks; Largo Law is a striking example. In one of these necks on the shore at Kincraig Point is a fine example of columnar basalt; the Rock and Spindle near St Andrews is another. Last of all in Tertiary times, east and west rifts in the Old Red Sandstone were filled by basalt
dikes...

http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/F/FI/FIFE.htm

It appears the volcanic activity pierced the Carboniferous, Permian and

Tertiary strata. I think the author is just interpreting the sequence in

uniformitarian terms. We should get some more details about the geologic

sequence there, and analyze it further.

 

[jwu]

I don't see how you get that from this article. There was some tertiary volcanic activity, but also permian activity. The teritiary activity pierced numerous strata including the permian, jurassic et cetera, the permian activity did not (except for the already present permian strata).

I think the author is just interpreting the sequence in
uniformitarian terms.

What would you interprete differently?

 

[Charlie Hatchett]

charlie:

It appears the volcanic activity pierced the Carboniferous, Permian and

Tertiary strata. I think the author is just interpreting the sequence in

uniformitarian terms. We should get some more details about the geologic

sequence there, and analyze it further.

I don't see how you get that from this article. There was some tertiary volcanic activity, but also permian activity. The teritiary activity pierced numerous strata including the permian, jurassic et cetera, the permian activity did not (except for the already present permian strata).

What would you interprete differently?

That the volcanic activity for all the strata occurred in the same time period:

The Tertiary.

How was it ascertained the Permian activity was actually

Permian activity (i.e.- these particular intrusions may have just stopped in

the Permian strata)? I might have missed something.

 

[jwu]

Sorry for the delay...you know the reasons. I guess it's time to get back to the other topics:

That the volcanic activity for all the strata occurred in the same time period:
The Tertiary.

How was it ascertained the Permian activity was actually
Permian activity (i.e.- these particular intrusions may have just stopped in
the Permian strata)? I might have missed something.

That's certain because it's not like a tertiary subterranean lava bubble at all.

As previously mentioned, columnar basalt requires close proximity to the surface or contact to the surface in order to form, and flat layers like those don't form subterraneously either.

Well...and welded tuffs cannot form without exposure to air at all. There is no such thing as a subterranean or submarine pyroclastic flow.

 

[Vanaka]

http://www.engineering.uiowa.edu/~cfd/gallery/images/flo12.jpg
http://www.uraniumminerals.com/Notes/Images/Lava.jpg
http://www.astro.umd.edu/~miller/Gallery/earth/lava.jpg

Aerial lava flows can be distinguished from aquatic ones, due to the cooling effect of water. One particularly spectacular example is columnar basalt:
http://www.geos.ed.ac.uk/geography/hutton/basalt.jpg (warning, huge image)
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photos/03/80 ... bb201a.jpg

It's typical for basaltic lava flows which cooled on dry land.
This means that such columnar basalt should not be found in strata which supposedly was laid down by the flood. But we do find it in a multitude of strata. E.g. there is such basalt in the upper cretaceous in the Yukon region.

These are some more examples of such basalt covered by some more sediments...too many sediments for it to be post flood, and it's clearly above anything that can be called pre flood:



Miocene basalt:
http://www.cwnp.org/basalt.jpg


http://volcanoes.usgs.gov/yvo/images/20 ... _large.jpg


Huge but very cool:
http://www.cas.sc.edu/geog/gsgdocs/imag ... inting.jpg

Tertiary Columnar Basalt is found in The Giant’s Causeway, NE Antrim
(the brownish layer in particular)

Tertiary Columnar basalt is also found at Fingal's Cave off Mull (UK).

Neogene to Quaternary Columnar Basalt in Mongolia.

Carboniferous Columnar Basalt: Largo Law in Scotland

So all these strata were exposed to air when the lava flows formed, i.e. not they didn't form during a global flood.

well, Acually, it fits fine into The Flood, Alot of Volcanos probably went off during the Flood.

 

[reznwerks]

[

well, Acually, it fits fine into The Flood, Alot of Volcanos probably went off during the Flood.

Ya mean like Roman Candles? WoW! POP! POP! POP!

 

[jwu]

Vanaka, then please explain how lava pools which are typical for cooling exposed to the surface on dry land and have absolutely nothing in common with submarine lava flows could happen during the flood?

Underwater lava flows look like this:

They form pillows, not flat layers of columnar basalt.

How about the welded tuffs, i.e. the remnants of pyroclastic clouds, which have absolutely no chance to be formed underwater?

Just saying that lots of volcanoes went off during the flood doesn't cut it...

 

[Charlie Hatchett]

..there are many beds of contemporaneous basaltic lavas and tuffs in the Carboniferous rocks; Saline Hill and Knock Hill were the sites of vents, which at that time threw Out ashes; these interbedded rocks are well exposed on the shore between Burntisland and Seafield Tower. There were also many intrusive sheets of dolerite and basalt forced into tne lower Carboniferous rocks, and these now play an important part in the scenery of the county. They form the summits of the Lomond Hills and Benarty, and they may be followed from Ctilt Hill by the Cleish Hills to Blairadam; and again near Dunfermline, Burntisland, Torryburn, Auchtertool and St Andrews. Later, in Permian times, eastern Fife was the seat of further volcanic action, and great numbers of necks or vents pierce the Carboniferous rocks; Largo Law is a striking example. In one of these necks on the shore at Kincraig Point is a fine example of columnar basalt; the Rock and Spindle near St Andrews is another. Last of all in Tertiary times, east and west rifts in the Old Red Sandstone were filled by basalt dikes...

http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/F/FI/FIFE.htm

Charlie:

It appears the volcanic activity pierced the Carboniferous, Permian and

Tertiary strata. I think the author is just interpreting the sequence in

uniformitarian terms. We should get some more details about the geologic

sequence there, and analyze it further.

But again, it is igneous intrusion that occurred after the Carboniferous strata

was laid down. This poses no difficulty for the Flood model.

Charlie:


That the volcanic activity for all the strata occurred in the same time period:

The Tertiary.

How was it ascertained the Permian activity was actually
Permian activity (i.e.- these particular intrusions may have just stopped in
the Permian strata)? I might have missed something.

jwu:

That's certain because it's not like a tertiary subterranean lava bubble at all.

As previously mentioned, columnar basalt requires close proximity to the

surface or contact to the surface in order to form, and flat layers like those

don't form subterraneously either.

Well...and welded tuffs cannot form without exposure to air at all. There is

no such thing as a subterranean or submarine pyroclastic flow.

Again, how do you account for this igneous activity in sedimentary strata

that had formed previously, without invoking the igneous intrusion

argument I used above? This is not a thin strat. The majority of the

intrusion would not have been in close proximity to the surface, even if the

other overlying start was not present at the time (which I don't think is the

case).


Are the Ar/Ar dates are available for each sequence? All

this igneous activity in such close proximity points to a single event or

"episode" of events, penetrating several strata in a short period of time

versus separate events spaced out over millions of years.