Contradictions?

[jeramiah]

Hi all -)

Firstly i wan't to make it clear that i'm not here,neither did i start this thread,to cause any kind of serious argument,inflame the topic or offend any '' genuine christians out there''. I say genuine because those are the people who im asking this question,not the people who were baptised at birth or attend church but dont truely believe in god,or follow jesus christs teachings.( yet call themselves christians)

My questions is this..it is a very obvious contradiction to anyone who approaches religion with logic rather than desperation..i'll get straight to the point.

The bible clearly states that anyone who doesnt accept jesus christ as their salvation will go to hell.

I'n reference to accepting him as your saviour we should all know that this generaly means truelly understanding( or trying to ) the very reasons why he was here and sent to earth,the purpose of his teachings and why its so important to understand the reasons for his crucification and therefore accepting that he played the vital role in creating the bridge between man and god,heaven and hell..life and death ..etc..

now...The average person,lets say an atheist or someone who has there own beleif system or spiritual connection with god that doesnt include christ,someone who doesnt believe in a god or any gods,but, lives a good life and by good i mean that person genuinly has a good nature and spirit and a genuine sense of humanity and clear moral values,he dies without having accepted christ....the bible clearly says he goes to hell,for ever,and ever and ever...we dont need to go over the nature of hell because quite frankly everyone knows that being a place completely abandoned by god etc and void of all things good it must be a seriously horrible place to exist,and thats not figuring into the equasion that there are supposidly demons and other evils that dwell there tormenting ppl..


so this guy who was a nice person he goes to hell..he didnt accept christ...i have to stress again that the bible cleary says once you arrive in hell there is no hope of ever getting out. ..its forever,this un barable torment and anguish.

now..god is supposed to be a god of love...passion.patience..understanding and so on,and so on...but? on thew subject of gods nature and hes ''justness'' is it just to condem a human soul to hell for all eternity( lets consider eternity is a very long time) for not accepting jesus christ? and remember,this person was a good person. hes biggest sin being not accepting jesus into his life,but even still,for maybe the 60-70 years or so that he spent on this earth,does an everlasting place of torment match up to his '' sin/crimes ''? im sorry but even though i understand the nature of accepting christ ,i just cant love and respect a god that would eternily damn a person for the above mentioned sin..as i see it that is a serious misjustice and thats just when u weigh up the sin to crime ratio..


wouldnt it just have been more wise not to create mankind in the first place? knowing that so many good people would die without acceptiing christ and go to this place of hell?

which leads to the question..is mankind capable of being more just,and forgiving than god? i know for one that i couldnt do the very same thing..i could never conciously punish someone to such an extent and for so long for the said thing...regardless of how important christs significance is,it just isn't a just punishment in my opinion.

thoughts on the subject would be interesting as id like to see what any christians have to say about it

 

[cyberjosh]

First of all what does it mean for us as humans to be forgiving? What moral authority do we have to assume something is wrong to even require forgiveness in the first place? And if we cannot answer that then how can we say that we can be more forgiving than God? Does God not have the right to demand moral righteousness from His creation, more so than even we do to exact "justice" from our fellow human beings?

Those questions must be addressed first to even begin to answer your question.

Sincerely,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

Welcome to the boards BTW.

 

[JudaicChristian]

Not all Christians believe in hell. The Hebrew word "Sheol" means grave, not hell. Hell is part of the Pagan religion. Study the word "hell" and it's origin. There is translations, and there are interpretations.

 

[cyberjosh]

Not all Christians believe in hell. The Hebrew word "Sheol" means grave, not hell. Hell is part of the Pagan religion. Study the word "hell" and it's origin. There is translations, and there are interpretations.

I'll bet you believe in the lake of fire (Revelation 20), because that's where the wicked are going in the end. Also, please try not to change the subject. I know from past discussions that that topic can take up an entire thread of its own.

Thanks,

~Josh

 

[JudaicChristian]

Not all Christians believe in hell. The Hebrew word "Sheol" means grave, not hell. Hell is part of the Pagan religion. Study the word "hell" and it's origin. There is translations, and there are interpretations.

I'll bet you believe in the lake of fire (Revelation 20), because that's where the wicked are going in the end. Also, please try not to change the subject. I know from past discussions that that topic can take up an entire thread of its own.

Thanks,

~Josh

I believe that the Lake of Fire is parabolic to mean "the gathered in judgement." Lake= gathered. Fire= judgement.

 

[cyberjosh]

Not all Christians believe in hell. The Hebrew word "Sheol" means grave, not hell. Hell is part of the Pagan religion. Study the word "hell" and it's origin. There is translations, and there are interpretations.

I'll bet you believe in the lake of fire (Revelation 20), because that's where the wicked are going in the end. Also, please try not to change the subject. I know from past discussions that that topic can take up an entire thread of its own.

Thanks,

~Josh

I believe that the Lake of Fire is parabolic to mean "the gathered in judgement." Lake= gathered. Fire= judgement.

Uh huh, so you willingly change its meaning to better suit your interpretation? The Lake of Fire is mentioned outside of Scriptural sources as well (namely, in Josephus) and it refers to a quite literal Lake of Fire.

P.S. Do you believe in Universal Reconcilliation? (I realize that now that I've asked this I may have to split these posts off into a new thread if this discussion ensues in any depth).

~Josh

 

[seekandlisten]

Merely questions to know where your coming from in your beliefs not to stir up anything. Has God had to change any variables in His Plan of salvation due to man's disobedience? Has our attempt to assign God with a description changed our view on Who or What God is? If God is Love could it not be the love in said persons heart that they are following be God? God does move in mysterious ways.

 

[ChevyRodeo]

Jesus is in the house at the door.

you are out in the rain.

he is saying HERE is the path come to me, here this way, PLEASE hurry !

you don't go inside and you stay out in the rain, you catch a cold. Who's fault is that ? YOURS.

God wants use to be sheltered and safe but our SIN detaches us from him so that We must make an effort to go to him. We are born into since, we have the same DNA as Adam and Ever, we are their physical replication.

 

[JudaicChristian]

I believe that the Lake of Fire is parabolic to mean "the gathered in judgement." Lake= gathered. Fire= judgement.[/quote]

Uh huh, so you willingly change its meaning to better suit your interpretation? The Lake of Fire is mentioned outside of Scriptural sources as well (namely, in Josephus) and it refers to a quite literal Lake of Fire.

P.S. Do you believe in Universal Reconcilliation? (I realize that now that I've asked this I may have to split these posts off into a new thread if this discussion ensues in any depth).

~Josh[/quote]
Have you forgotten about parables?

 

[seekandlisten]

I believe that the Lake of Fire is parabolic to mean "the gathered in judgement." Lake= gathered. Fire= judgement.

Uh huh, so you willingly change its meaning to better suit your interpretation? The Lake of Fire is mentioned outside of Scriptural sources as well (namely, in Josephus) and it refers to a quite literal Lake of Fire.

P.S. Do you believe in Universal Reconcilliation? (I realize that now that I've asked this I may have to split these posts off into a new thread if this discussion ensues in any depth).

~Josh[/quote]
Have you forgotten about parables?[/quote]

You avoided the question regarding universal reconcilliation so I'm going to assume that you believe this to be true? Correct me if I'm wrong. I think that scripture makes it clear that all will stand before God to be judged. Now we are not judged on our physical actions but rather on our motives in our heart, what drives us to do the things we do. Well God desires that none should perish, our selfish desires get in the way and for that I can assure you, we will be judged.

 

[seekandlisten]

I believe that the Lake of Fire is parabolic to mean "the gathered in judgement." Lake= gathered. Fire= judgement.

Uh huh, so you willingly change its meaning to better suit your interpretation? The Lake of Fire is mentioned outside of Scriptural sources as well (namely, in Josephus) and it refers to a quite literal Lake of Fire.

P.S. Do you believe in Universal Reconcilliation? (I realize that now that I've asked this I may have to split these posts off into a new thread if this discussion ensues in any depth).

~Josh

Have you forgotten about parables?

[/quote]


You avoided the question regarding universal reconcilliation so I'm going to assume that you believe this to be true? Correct me if I'm wrong. I think that scripture makes it clear that all will stand before God to be judged. Now we are not judged on our physical actions but rather on our motives in our heart, what drives us to do the things we do. While God desires that none should perish, our selfish desires get in the way and for that I can assure you, we will be judged.

 

[JudaicChristian]

You avoided the question regarding universal reconcilliation so I'm going to assume that you believe this to be true? Correct me if I'm wrong. I think that scripture makes it clear that all will stand before God to be judged. Now we are not judged on our physical actions but rather on our motives in our heart, what drives us to do the things we do. While God desires that none should perish, our selfish desires get in the way and for that I can assure you, we will be judged.

No, I do not believe in universal reconcilliation.

 

[seekandlisten]

[No, I do not believe in universal reconcilliation.

Can I ask what you are putting forth then in regards to the OP?

 

[JudaicChristian]

[No, I do not believe in universal reconcilliation.

Can I ask what you are putting forth then in regards to the OP?

There are a number of scripture that say the condemed are killed besides this one: Genesis 18:25
Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

 

[ProphetMark]

Jesus is in the house at the door.

you are out in the rain.

he is saying HERE is the path come to me, here this way, PLEASE hurry !

you don't go inside and you stay out in the rain, you catch a cold. Who's fault is that ? YOURS.

But who's fault is it that God then decides to send you to the Antarctic with only a t-shirt and shorts to wear, and you get pneumonia?

 

[cyberjosh]

Jesus is in the house at the door.

you are out in the rain.

he is saying HERE is the path come to me, here this way, PLEASE hurry !

you don't go inside and you stay out in the rain, you catch a cold. Who's fault is that ? YOURS.

But who's fault is it that God then decides to send you to the Antarctic with only a t-shirt and shorts to wear, and you get pneumonia?

Are you trying to express some bitterness with some religious experience you had? Isaiah 30:18 says, "the LORD longs to be gracious to you; he rises to show you compassion". And (I happened to be reading this just recently) even when God promised in Hosea 11 that Ephraim would be punished for their sins, yet we see at the same time the agony that God has over the need to chastise them:

“7 My people are bent on backsliding from Me.
Though they call to the Most High,
None at all exalt Him.
8 How can I give you up, Ephraim?
How can I hand you over, Israel?
How can I make you like Admah?
How can I set you like Zeboiim?
My heart churns within Me;
My sympathy is stirred. â€
(Hosea 11:7-8)

In short, God is gracious and compassionate even when He must chastise us. What are you objecting to? Only a hard heart will harbor bitterness over God's loving chastisement, and not see God's intention (like our parents would) to discipline us because He loves us so that we do not walk down the wrong path.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Joe67]

Jesus is in the house at the door.

you are out in the rain.

he is saying HERE is the path come to me, here this way, PLEASE hurry !

you don't go inside and you stay out in the rain, you catch a cold. Who's fault is that ? YOURS.

But who's fault is it that God then decides to send you to the Antarctic with only a t-shirt and shorts to wear, and you get pneumonia?

Are you trying to express some bitterness with some religious experience you had? Isaiah 30:18 says, "the LORD longs to be gracious to you; he rises to show you compassion". And (I happened to be reading this just recently) even when God promised in Hosea 11 that Ephraim would be punished for their sins, yet we see at the same time the agony that God has over the need to chastise them:

“7 My people are bent on backsliding from Me.
Though they call to the Most High,
None at all exalt Him.
8 How can I give you up, Ephraim?
How can I hand you over, Israel?
How can I make you like Admah?
How can I set you like Zeboiim?
My heart churns within Me;
My sympathy is stirred. â€
(Hosea 11:7-8)

In short, God is gracious and compassionate even when He must chastise us. What are you complaining about? Only a hard heart will harbor bitterness over chastisement, and not see God's intention (like our parents) to discipline us because He loves us so that we do not walk down the wrong path.

God Bless,

~Josh

CS,

I am glad, through and in the Lord Jesus, that you believe in the over-all authority and way of God the Father to discipline us even though he has already called us his children in Jesus Christ and the law of the Spirit of life that is in Jesus.

The calling and thereby justification of God is sweet. The chastening of the Father is bitter, but necessary to save us from the sin of pride.

These two works of grace are actually inseparable, but sometimes the sweetness of the milk is so powerful that the bitterness of the strong meat is neglected; though not denied. So the churches do not mature, not seeing the purpose in the discipline. Then let us not let go of the Head that justifies while walking in the grace of tribulations that saves from the sin of pride.

Joe

 

[ProphetMark]

Jesus is in the house at the door.

you are out in the rain.

he is saying HERE is the path come to me, here this way, PLEASE hurry !

you don't go inside and you stay out in the rain, you catch a cold. Who's fault is that ? YOURS.

But who's fault is it that God then decides to send you to the Antarctic with only a t-shirt and shorts to wear, and you get pneumonia?

Are you trying to express some bitterness with some religious experience you had? Isaiah 30:18 says, "the LORD longs to be gracious to you; he rises to show you compassion". And (I happened to be reading this just recently) even when God promised in Hosea 11 that Ephraim would be punished for their sins, yet we see at the same time the agony that God has over the need to chastise them:

“7 My people are bent on backsliding from Me.
Though they call to the Most High,
None at all exalt Him.
8 How can I give you up, Ephraim?
How can I hand you over, Israel?
How can I make you like Admah?
How can I set you like Zeboiim?
My heart churns within Me;
My sympathy is stirred. â€
(Hosea 11:7-8)

In short, God is gracious and compassionate even when He must chastise us. What are you objecting to? Only a hard heart will harbor bitterness over God's loving chastisement, and not see God's intention (like our parents would) to discipline us because He loves us so that we do not walk down the wrong path.

God Bless,

~Josh

It was the fact that he sends people to Hell I was thinking of. Why doesn't he leave them to suffer the cold (ie die and that's the end of it) rather than send them to the Antarctic (ie send them to Hell)?