Could ALL of Gods Laws REALLY Have been NAILED to HIS CROSS

[Drew]

NOTE:
Posts merged of identical content from another thread.
Rick

Let's go with your thinking for just a moment, and allow me to ask a question:

Do you believe Jesus Christ shed His blood for our sins, thus becoming our atonement, acting as our High Priest, and sitting on the right hand of God?

Yes I do.

But that does not mean that only the sacrificial component of Torah has been done away with.

The reader will know that abolition of one component of Torah does not imply the retention of the other components.

 

[Ret]

Re: Could ALL of Gods Laws REALLY Have been NAILED to HIS CROSS?

So the Law of the Priesthood could not make the people perfect. And the job of the Priesthood was to perform sacrifices. That was their job. That was their 'works' or 'deeds' of the law.

It was the Law of the Levitical Priesthood that Paul was talking about and ONLY that Law.

The work of the Levitical Priesthood goes much further than that of sacrificing animals.

1 Chronicles 6:49 But Aaron and his sons offered on the altar of burnt offering and on the altar of incense, for all the work of the most holy place, and to make atonement for Israel, according to all that Moses the servant of God had commanded. NASU

Ezekiel 40:45-46
45 He said to me, "This is the chamber which faces toward the south, intended for the priests who keep charge of the temple;
46 but the chamber which faces toward the north is for the priests who keep charge of the altar. These are the sons of Zadok, who from the sons of Levi' NASU

1 Chronicles 9:
v26 'the four chief gatekeepers who were Levites'...
v28-31 [keep the temple treasuries/furniture/utensils/flower,oil,frankincence,spices]
v33 Now these are the singers, heads of fathers' households of the Levites, who lived in the chambers of the temple free from other service;

Ret

 

[Eccl12and13]

Re: Could ALL of Gods Laws REALLY Have been NAILED to HIS CROSS?

So the Law of the Priesthood could not make the people perfect. And the job of the Priesthood was to perform sacrifices. That was their job. That was their 'works' or 'deeds' of the law.

It was the Law of the Levitical Priesthood that Paul was talking about and ONLY that Law.

The work of the Levitical Priesthood goes much further than that of sacrificing animals.

1 Chronicles 6:49 But Aaron and his sons offered on the altar of burnt offering and on the altar of incense, for all the work of the most holy place, and to make atonement for Israel, according to all that Moses the servant of God had commanded. NASU

Ezekiel 40:45-46
45 He said to me, "This is the chamber which faces toward the south, intended for the priests who keep charge of the temple;
46 but the chamber which faces toward the north is for the priests who keep charge of the altar. These are the sons of Zadok, who from the sons of Levi' NASU

1 Chronicles 9:
v26 'the four chief gatekeepers who were Levites'...
v28-31 [keep the temple treasuries/furniture/utensils/flower,oil,frankincence,spices]
v33 Now these are the singers, heads of fathers' households of the Levites, who lived in the chambers of the temple free from other service;

Ret

I understand that their job was the entire keep of the temple. But the point, for the purpose of this thread, was to establish that ONLY the Levites could perform sacrifices. Which all ties in to what I am about to explain to Drew.

 

[Rick W]

Re: Could ALL of Gods Laws REALLY Have been NAILED to HIS CROSS?

 

[Eccl12and13]

Re: Could ALL of Gods Laws REALLY Have been NAILED to HIS CROSS?

Let's go with your thinking for just a moment, and allow me to ask a question:

Do you believe Jesus Christ shed His blood for our sins, thus becoming our atonement, acting as our High Priest, and sitting on the right hand of God?

"Yes I do."

So Drew, according to YOU, ALL of the Torah was COMPLETLY ABOLISHED!!! BUT.....you believe that Christ shed His Blood, ONE TIME, for the atonement of EVERYBODY'S sins! AND He is STILL, at this moment, our HIGH PRIEST, making intercession for us at the right hand of God.

Well, let's go to the scripture to see if ALL of what you believe is true Drew:

Heb.7
[5] And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

As we know ONLY those from the tribe of Levi could receive the office of the priesthood. That was God's LAW! God, and ONLY HE, established it. But God also said that Christ would be a priest. Now was Christ from the tribe of Levi?

[14] For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

NO! Christ was not from the tribe of Levi, our Lord was from the tribe of Juda. But God said ALL Priest MUST come from the tribe of Levi! So what was the ONLY OPTION? Do away with the LAW?

God could not do that because He gave charge of ALL of the service of His temple to the Levites:

Num.1
[49] Only thou shalt not number the tribe of Levi, neither take the sum of them among the children of Israel:
[50] But thou shalt appoint the Levites over the tabernacle of testimony, and over all the vessels thereof, and over all things that belong to it: they shall bear the tabernacle, and all the vessels thereof; and they shall minister unto it, and shall encamp round about the tabernacle.

So the ONLY other option was a CHANGE in the Law, NOT ABOLISH IT, just CHANGE IT!

Heb.7
[12] For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

So let's read what Christ job is NOW!!! AFTER HIS DEATH!

Heb.7
[24] But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
[25] Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
[26] For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
[27] Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

So AFTER Christ DIED He became our High Priest! He took over the job of the Levites. And He could do that because the Law was CHANGED! Not Done away with and nailed to the cross!

So Drew, if ALL OF THE TORAH IS ABOLISHED, WHO IS YOUR HIGH PRIEST? If the Law, and with it, the office of the Priesthood, has been ABOLISHED, WHO is perfoming intercesion for YOUR SINS Drew? WHO IS YOUR HIGH PRIEST DREW!!!

My High Priest sits on the right hand of the Father providing intercession for my sins. This became His job AFTER He died.

Heb.2
[17] Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Heb.4
[14] Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

Heb.4
[15] For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Heb.7
[25] Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Heb.9
[11] But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

Heb.10
[12] But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
[19] Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
[20] By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
[21] And having an high priest over the house of God;

So again Drew, according to YOU, ALL of the Torah was COMPLETLY ABOLISHED!!! BUT.....you believe that Christ shed His Blood, ONE TIME, for the atonement of EVERYBODY'S sins! AND He is STILL, at this VERY moment, our HIGH PRIEST, making intercession for us at the right hand of God.

So tell me Drew, if ALL OF THE TORAH WAS ABOLISHED, wouldn't that mean the law that was changed was abolished also? And if the law that was changed is abolished, WHO IS OUR HIGH PRIEST?

Now if we take YOUR line of thinking just where does that leave us?

 

[Eccl12and13]

Could ALL of Gods Laws REALLY Have been NAILED to HIS CROSS?

Could ALL of Gods Laws REALLY Have been NAILED to HIS CROSS?

According to some on this forum, ALL of the God’s Laws were COMPLETLY ABOLISHED! NAILED TO HIS CROSS!! But some of you still believe that Christ shed His Blood, ONE TIME, for the atonement of EVERYBODY'S sins! AND.. He is STILL, at this moment, our HIGH PRIEST, making intercession for us at the right hand of God.

Well, let's go to the scripture to see if ALL of what you believe is true:

Heb.7
[5] And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

As we know ONLY those from the tribe of Levi could receive the office of the priesthood. That was God's LAW! God, and ONLY HE, established it. But God also said that Christ would be a priest. Now was Christ from the tribe of Levi?

[14] For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

NO! Christ was not from the tribe of Levi, our Lord was from the tribe of Juda. But God said ALL Priest MUST come from the tribe of Levi! So what was the ONLY OPTION? Do away with the LAW?

God could not do that because He gave charge of ALL of the service of His temple to the Levites:

Num.1
[49] Only thou shalt not number the tribe of Levi, neither take the sum of them among the children of Israel:
[50] But thou shalt appoint the Levites over the tabernacle of testimony, and over all the vessels thereof, and over all things that belong to it: they shall bear the tabernacle, and all the vessels thereof; and they shall minister unto it, and shall encamp round about the tabernacle.

So the ONLY other option was a CHANGE in the Law, NOT ABOLISH IT, just CHANGE IT!

Heb.7
[12] For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

So let's read what Christ job is NOW!!! AFTER HIS DEATH!

Heb.7
[24] But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
[25] Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
[26] For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
[27] Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

So AFTER Christ DIED He became our High Priest! He took over the job of the Levites. And He could do that because the Law was CHANGED! Not Done away with and nailed to the cross!

So, if ALL OF GODS LAWS WERE ABOLISHED, WHO IS YOUR HIGH PRIEST? If the Law, and with it, the office of the Priesthood, has been ABOLISHED, WHO is performing intercessions for YOUR SINS? WHO IS YOUR HIGH PRIEST NOW!!!

My High Priest sits on the right hand of the Father providing intercession for my sins. This became His job AFTER He died.

Heb.2
[17] Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Heb.4
[14] Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

Heb.4
[15] For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Heb.7
[25] Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Heb.9
[11] But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

Heb.10
[12] But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
[19] Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
[20] By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
[21] And having an high priest over the house of God;

So again, according to some, ALL of God’s laws were COMPLETLY ABOLISHED!!! BUT.....you still believe that Christ shed His Blood, ONE TIME, for the atonement of EVERYBODY'S sins! AND He is STILL, at this VERY moment, our HIGH PRIEST, making intercession for us at the right hand of God.

So tell me, if ALL OF THE LAW WAS ABOLISHED, wouldn't that mean the law that was changed was abolished also? And if the law that was changed is abolished, WHO IS YOUR HIGH PRIEST?

Now just where would that leave us if we took that line of thinking?

Now let’s flip this: If the law STILL STANDS and was not ABOLISHED, then what was the law THAT WAS NAILED TO HIS CROSS?

We cannot have it BOTH ways! Either the Laws were nailed, that would mean ALL OF THEM, including those of the Priesthood, or they were not.

 

[Tomlane]

Re: Could ALL of Gods Laws REALLY Have been NAILED to HIS CROSS?

Eccl12and13, I believe all of the Mosaic Law was nailed to the cross with its shadows and types of things to Come until we have the reality of Christ that has come to pass. We still have God's moral laws written on our conscience.

Tomlane

 

[Drew]

Re: Could ALL of Gods Laws REALLY Have been NAILED to HIS CROSS?

NO! Christ was not from the tribe of Levi, our Lord was from the tribe of Juda. But God said ALL Priest MUST come from the tribe of Levi! So what was the ONLY OPTION? Do away with the LAW?

God could not do that because He gave charge of ALL of the service of His temple to the Levites:

Your entire argument presumes that the assignment of temple service to the Levites is everlasting. That assumption allows you to say:

So the ONLY other option was a CHANGE in the Law, NOT ABOLISH IT, just CHANGE IT!

However, I see no justification for an assumption of the permanence of any part of Torah.

 

[Rick W]

Re: Could ALL of Gods Laws REALLY Have been NAILED to HIS CROSS?

A high priest's role was to make intercession for the people to God. This function was of course carried out in the Holy of Holies.
In like manner Christ, the ultimate High Priest, performs the same function. But he doesn't make continual sacrifices. In this role he stands as the mediator, the intercessor, of the New Covenant . If the Law was still in force then He would be obligated to do as the Law prescribed in Leviticus concerning the duties of an earthly High Priest.
Eccl12and13,
All you've managed to do is support the fact "The Law" is obsolete because there are no sacrifices performed by the High Priest in heaven.

 

[Eccl12and13]

Re: Could ALL of Gods Laws REALLY Have been NAILED to HIS CROSS?

NO! Christ was not from the tribe of Levi, our Lord was from the tribe of Juda. But God said ALL Priest MUST come from the tribe of Levi! So what was the ONLY OPTION? Do away with the LAW?

God could not do that because He gave charge of ALL of the service of His temple to the Levites:

Your entire argument presumes that the assignment of temple service to the Levites is everlasting. That assumption allows you to say:

So the ONLY other option was a CHANGE in the Law, NOT ABOLISH IT, just CHANGE IT!

However, I see no justification for an assumption of the permanence of any part of Torah.

Exod.40
[1] And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

So we know who is giving the command to Moses!

[12] And thou shalt bring Aaron and his sons unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and wash them with water.

We know that through Aaron and his sons are all of the tribe of Levi!

[13] And thou shalt put upon Aaron the holy garments, and anoint him, and sanctify him; that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.
[14] And thou shalt bring his sons, and clothe them with coats:

We know that Aaron and his sons were anointed and sanctified to become priest!

[15] And thou shalt anoint them, as thou didst anoint their father, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office: for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations.

AND NOW WE KNOW HOW LONG THEY WERE TO HOLD THE OFFICE!!!!

"for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations."

 

[Eccl12and13]

Re:Could ALL of Gods Laws REALLY Have been NAILED to HIS CRO

Eccl12and13, I believe all of the Mosaic Law was nailed to the cross with its shadows and types of things to Come until we have the reality of Christ that has come to pass. We still have God's moral laws written on our conscience.

Tomlane

If the Mosaic Law, which included the Law of the Levitical Priesthood, has been abolished, then WHO IS YOUR HIGH PRIEST?

The ONLY way Jesus could be our High Priest was by the changing of the Law. The Law states that ONLY the sons of Aaron, from the tribe of Levi, could by priest. That law was changed, so that Christ could become our High Priest. But if you insist that ALL of the Torah has been nailed to the cross, then the question begs to be asked:

Who is your High Priest?

 

[Rick W]

Re: Could ALL of Gods Laws REALLY Have been NAILED to HIS CROSS?

A high priest's role was to make intercession for the people to God. This function was of course carried out in the Holy of Holies.
In like manner Christ, the ultimate High Priest, performs the same function. But he doesn't make continual sacrifices. In this role he stands as the mediator, the intercessor, of the New Covenant . If the Law was still in force then He would be obligated to do as the Law prescribed in Leviticus concerning the duties of an earthly High Priest.
Eccl12and13,
All you've managed to do is support the fact "The Law" is obsolete because there are no sacrifices performed by the High Priest in heaven.

 

[Joe67]

The priesthood of our Lord Jesus is not based on any authority that came through the ministration of Moses; though Moses' ministration was glorious, and the law is holy, just, and good.

Jesus' priesthood is authorized through David's ministry and authority from God which, while not being against Moses, was greater than Moses.

The Spirit of Christ prophesied through David concerning the priesthood of Jesus. This is written in Psalm 110. There is not context, language science or Mosaic authority that accepts that David was speaking of Jesus of Nazareth, risen from the dead. The rules of exegesis do not allow that Psalm 110 is speaking concerning Jesus, our Lord, in the presence of God for us.

Eventually all forsook Paul in Rome. The book of Hebrews is the only NT witness to this prophecy in Psalm 110.The symbolism staggers the imagination; though through faith God keeps us from staggering as drunk, yet not with wine.

Moses' ministry was temporary; though not to be despised. It was necessary until faith was given through David and his Son.

Joe

 

[Eccl12and13]

The priesthood of our Lord Jesus is not based on any authority that came through the ministration of Moses; though Moses' ministration was glorious, and the law is holy, just, and good.Joe

I never said it was. That's why the Law had to be changed, because Moses DID NOT speak of a priesthood coming out of the tribe of Juda. Moses spoke of the priest ONLY coming out of the tribe of Levi:

Heb.7
[12] For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
[14] For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

 

[Ret]

Re: Re:Could ALL of Gods Laws REALLY Have been NAILED to HIS CRO

If the Mosaic Law, which included the Law of the Levitical Priesthood, has been abolished, then WHO IS YOUR HIGH PRIEST?

Jesus is not our 'high priest' on the basis of a physical law...
Jesus is our 'high priest' according to the power of an indestructible life.

Heb 7:16..who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life.
v18 For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness 19(for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God. NASU

Ret

 

[Drew]

Re: Could ALL of Gods Laws REALLY Have been NAILED to HIS CROSS?

AND NOW WE KNOW HOW LONG THEY WERE TO HOLD THE OFFICE!!!!

"for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations."

Its not that simple.

The word "everlasting" here is based on the Hebrew "owlam". This same root is used in contexts where we know that it does not connote a truly permanent state of affairs.

Consider this from 1 Samuel 1:

It came about in due time, after Hannah had conceived, that she gave birth to a son; and she named him Samuel, saying, "(Z)Because I have asked him of the LORD." 21Then the man Elkanah (AA)went up with all his household to offer to the LORD the yearly sacrifice and pay his vow. 22But Hannah did not go up, for she said to her husband, "I will not go up until the child is weaned; then I will (AB)bring him, that he may appear before the LORD and (AC)stay there forever."

The same Hebrew word here is rendered "forever". If "owlam" really means forever, the mother is effectively saying "I wll bring Samuel to this place and there he will live there eternally. Despite the evidence that all men die, my son will be an exception, he will live to be billions and billions of years old".

I trust the point is clear - the term "forever" does not really mean forever.

There are other texts I could put forward where owlam clearly denotes a limited time interval. It is an oversimplification to take Exodus 40:15 as affirming the permance of the office of the Levitical priests.

Therefore, we can indeed assert that their office came to an end with the abolition of the entirety of Torah.

 

[RND]

Re: Could ALL of Gods Laws REALLY Have been NAILED to HIS CROSS?

Eccl12and13, I believe all of the Mosaic Law was nailed to the cross with its shadows and types of things to Come until we have the reality of Christ that has come to pass. We still have God's moral laws written on our conscience.

Tomlane

Is it possible that the feasts, festivals and holy days can also apply to Christ's second coming?

 

[einstein]

This is written in Psalm 110. Would you care to elaborate or at least explain your understanding of this psalm?

 

[Ret]

Re: Could ALL of Gods Laws REALLY Have been NAILED to HIS CROSS?

AND NOW WE KNOW HOW LONG THEY WERE TO HOLD THE OFFICE!!!!

Eccl... you come across as thinking that 'everlasting 'priest hood' as in Ex 40:15, is to extend the process of being 'high priest' without sacrifices, and only change the law to reflect that this is the only thing that has changed.

The 'former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness' IS 'set aside', all of it has been fulfilled. The 'everlasting priesthood' as given to the tribe of Levi, has fulfilled it's work, it is now weak and useless, and thereby 'set aside'. [Heb 7:18]

We now draw near to God with a 'better hope' built on 'better promises', apart from the former things, as given by and through Moses.

John 1:17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. NASU...

 

[Eccl12and13]

If GOD said FOREVER, then it quite clear that's what he meant. If not, He would not have said it. He gives us examples throughout the bible. Here is one:



Exod.31
[15] Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
[16] Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

Lev.23
[34] Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, The fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the feast of tabernacles for seven days unto the LORD.
[36] Seven days ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: on the eighth day shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: it is a solemn assembly; and ye shall do no servile work therein.
[41] And ye shall keep it a feast unto the LORD seven days in the year. It shall be a statute for ever in your generations: ye shall celebrate it in the seventh month.

So here we have (2) things that God said would be forever or perpetual. Now most on this forum believe that God's Sabbath and feast days were done away with. But God said they were to be forever. Who's right? Let's let the scriptures answer:

Isa.66
[23] And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Zech.14
[16] And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
[17] And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
[18] And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Now I'm sure everybody knows what time is being spoken of in these verses. It is during the 1000 year reign of Christ. And look at what is STILL being kept. Those SAME Sabbaths and FEAST days everybody said were nailed to His cross.

Now if God can ensure THESE TWO things are kept forever, why is it so hard to believe that the Levitical Priesthood would not also be forever? After all, Paul ONLY said the law was CHANGED, not ABOLISHED!!!