[_ Old Earth _] " creatio ex nihilo "

[jwu]

60,000,000divided by 4,000,000 = 15 positive mutations PER YEAR to get from ape to human.

Fifteen per year. How many do you hear about yearly, if even one?


No-one can ever prove anything except in math. 100% certainty exists only in math.

Okay, here it is.

Perhaps you should learn a bit more about biology. Do you seriously think such a massive flaw would go unnoticed by the scientific community if there was substance to it?

There is not only 4 million years of development worth of divergence, but eight million - four million years of humans in one direction, four million years of apes into the other direction. So we only need 8 mutations per year.

Every human's genome has about 130 mutations compared to his or her parent's genomes. The vast majority of these are neurtral and can become fixed - they don't have to be positive, mere neutrality is sufficent. The mutation rate is pretty much the same for apes. One human generation is about 20 years, that's how long it takes until the average human has children. That's 6.5 mutations per human and year.
Since generations are significantly shorter in ape species (fertility after a few years), let's take a high number and say 10 years (5 would be more likely), that's another 13 mutations per year from the apes.

So in average we get about 10 mutations per year, more than enough.

Furthermore, if you want exclusively beneficial ones, keep in mind the population numbers. Let's take a population of about 10 million humans or apes. That's roughly 100 million mutations per year in the entire population then, from which natural selection can choose a handful to become fixed in the population.

There it is.

How does one go about "proving" the old earth theory? does one have proof of the processes being the same now and four billion years ago? Does one know that those processes haven't changed? What is a "high degree" of certainty? Over fifty percent?

Nothing indicates that the processes changed, and changes would leave traces, wouldn't they? Furthermore, the age of the earth is established by various completely independent methods. Even if processes changed, why do these methods still agree with each other? There is no reason whatsoever why e.g. radioactive decay should be accellerated by the same factor as coral growth or the formation of river varves.
Over fifty percent? Definitely. It's more like 99.9999%.

This is a matter of interpretation, period. Some will see it one way and others another. No "scientist" was there to see it happen. God was, and He chose to tell Moses about it. Let's see some proof.

Then i'd like to see your interpretation of the correlation of various dating methods, and your interpretation of footprints in strata which supposedly was laid down by the flood, your interpretation of paleosols, your interpretation of fossilized riverbeds, the sorting of fossils and so on.
If a different interpretation was reasonable, the Christian geologists who discovered that the noachian flood couldn't possibly have happened would have come up with it.

Geology is a great tool, but it isn't the be all and end all. If you put your faith in it it becomes religion. I'll put my faith in God's word.

I put my faith into God's word and God's works help me to interprete it.

The Bible is an eye witness account and a written record.

That would stand up in any court.

Not if a DNA test says otherwise.

 

[The Ascetic Crusader]

reznwerks,

The life, death, burrial, and resurrection is proof of God.

Hallelujah!!!!!

Keep it comin´ Khris !!!! These scientific atheists will eventually have to bow to the power of The Lord.

 

[The Ascetic Crusader]

The bible itself is a man made compilation of man made texts

500 years ago, you would have had your head chopped off for saying that.
All you pseudo- scientists should count your lucky stars Christians decided to relax things here in the West allowing science and tech to grow a little.

 

[The Ascetic Crusader]

I put my faith into God's word and God's works help me to interprete it.

Put your faith in God´s words ? YOU put your faith in God´s words ?
Sorry JWU, but Christians put their faith in God.

1st Commandment my little friend.

 

[ownedbyhim]

HUMANS DIDN'T COME FROM APES!!!!!

We couldn't agree more. But it's taught daily in the public school system.

Ahhh!!!

Stop saying that. It isn't true. Evolutionists don't say it. so stop saying it!

Evolutionist may not, but nearly all high schools teach it as fact.

Frank

 

[ownedbyhim]

HUMANS DIDN'T COME FROM APES!!!!!

We couldn't agree more. But it's taught daily in the public school system.

Ahhh!!!

Stop saying that. It isn't true. Evolutionists don't say it. so stop saying it!

Evolutionist may not, but nearly all high schools teach it as fact.

Frank

What exactly do you do at this liberal school in Wyoming?
Exactly what I do is irrelevant.


Do you think that somehow you have stumbled on information that is not readily known to those that study biology and evolution?
No. It appears that they IGNORE it for reasons known only to them.

Don't you find it strange that the only people questioning evolution are theists and not many of them.
I'm no theist, neither is my pastor, neither is Ken Hamm. We all question evolution (molecules to man).

Find my post about 10,000 clergy supporting evolution.

 

[jwu]

I put my faith into God's word and God's works help me to interprete it.

Put your faith in God´s words ? YOU put your faith in God´s words ?
Sorry JWU, but Christians put their faith in God.

1st Commandment my little friend.

Semantics. And don't call me your friend, for i am not...and especially not your "little" friend.
Oh, and you should direct that towards "ownedbyhim", i was replying to his statement that he puts his faith into God's word.

 

[peace4all]

In highschool, I was taught that apes and humans came, possiblyfroma common ancestor. However, they did not come from apes....

In first grade, iw as taught that 3-5 was impossible. Because negative numbers, at such an age, is too much for a child to understand.

In 4th grade, i was taught that 15/6 was 2 remainder 3... not 2.5, because the concept is easier to grasp at a younger age.

It is easier for people to just say :Man came from monkeys" than have to try to explain DNA and common ancestry. Idunno, I was taught man from monkey in elementary school. In biology (10th grade) I was taught dna, and common ancestry.. I don't know other schools, so i can't speak for them.

Ascetic Crusader

I know 500 years ago, I would have been killed for what I say. Aren't you glad that the christian past is a bloody, horrible group of people that kill anyone that thinks for themselves?

as for the eye witness accounts.
How come, if its an eye witness account, it has changed hundreds of times over the last 2,000 years? How come each sect interprets this eye witness account diffrently?
Where is the proof, besides the bible, that these eyewitness's even existed?

I bet if you told a court today that you had a man named noah, that was alive for 500 years building a boat, and you watched it, cuz your an eyewitness, you would get locked up..

 

[Late_Cretaceous]

The bible itself is a man made compilation of man made texts

500 years ago, you would have had your head chopped off for saying that.
All you pseudo- scientists should count your lucky stars Christians decided to relax things here in the West allowing science and tech to grow a little.

I remember reading a true story about a woman and her daughter who were accused, convicted, and burned to death for witchcraft. THier crime was removing thier stockings and supposedly instigating a sudden thunderstorm. Is that the kind of world you want to live in? Ruled not by Jesus's love but by ingorance. If it were not for science, people would still be burned and hanged as witches for such things as pimples and nervous ticks, and removing items of clothing on a hot sticky day just before a storm.

 

[JM]

How about some positive evidence for it?

R. L. Dabney wrote: A truth is not necessary, because we negatively are not able to conceive the actual existence of the opposite thereof; but a truth is necessary when we positively are able to apprehend that the negation thereof includes an inevitable contradiction. It is not that we cannot see how the opposite comes to be true, but it is that we are able to see that that the opposite cannot possibly be true. (Systematic Theology, sect. 1, chap. 6, lect. 9

 

[Slevin]

reznwerks,

The life, death, burrial, and resurrection is proof of God.

Hallelujah!!!!!

Keep it comin´ Khris !!!! These scientific atheists will eventually have to bow to the power of The Lord.

I'm bowing alright.

 

[Khristeeanos]

reznwerks,

The life, death, burrial, and resurrection is proof of God.

Hallelujah!!!!!

Keep it comin´ Khris !!!! These scientific atheists will eventually have to bow to the power of The Lord.

I'm bowing alright.

You will. :o

• Philippians 2:9-11
  9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
  and gave him the name that is above every name,
  10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
  in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
  11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
  to the glory of God the Father.

This includes you. So give your live to Jesus today because you could die tomorrow. And then it is too late. ;-)

 

[Slevin]

reznwerks,

The life, death, burrial, and resurrection is proof of God.

Hallelujah!!!!!

Keep it comin´ Khris !!!! These scientific atheists will eventually have to bow to the power of The Lord.

I'm bowing alright.

You will. :o

No, I really wont.

 

[Khristeeanos]

reznwerks,

The life, death, burrial, and resurrection is proof of God.

Hallelujah!!!!!

Keep it comin´ Khris !!!! These scientific atheists will eventually have to bow to the power of The Lord.

I'm bowing alright.

You will. :o

No, I really wont.

Perhaps you didn't read the Scripture before you deleted it.



Philippians 2:9-11
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.



When it says "every" it includes you as well. :wink:

 

[Slevin]

Perhaps you didn't read the Scripture before you deleted it.
When it says "every" it includes you as well. :wink:

What it says and what really will happen are two very different things.

 

[JM]

Cornelius Van Til: We must point out to [our opponents] that [non-theistic] reasoning itself leads to self-contradiction, not only from a theistic point of view, but from a non-theistic point of view as well. . . . It is this that we ought to mean when we say that we reason from the impossibility of the contrary. The contrary is impossible only if it is self-contradictory when operating on the basis of its own assumptions. (A Survey of Christian Epistemology [Philadelphia: Presbyterian and Reformed, 1969], p. 204).