we know something about the death of Jesus . and there are things that are assumed to of happened , we know he was nailed to a thing made of wood . how long was it?? how deep the hole it was set into ,what did it all weigh . how far off the ground were his feet. how many nails were used ,2,3,or 4 ?? how many men did it take to stand it all up?? how did he get taken down ? we were not told many things but there are clues . Does anyone want to play ?
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crucifixion
- Thread starter locust
- Start date
Why is any of this important enough to need answers? Chances are the answers you seek will not be found since nobody today has been there and there are probably no recorded documents with these kinds of specifications.
I think I'd tend to agree with WIP here. I naturally don't take anything I see in movies as God's honest truth anyway, but as far as the real truth is concerned, I think the only group who these sorts of questions usually matter to are the JWs.
But someone else was posting on a similar question here if you wanted to take a look:
Cross or Torture Stake?
Many have been plagued by the fruitless arguments of a well-known organization whose adherents make much of the question of what it was upon which Jesus was crucified (or "impaled"). One brother was accosted with the question at a fair booth: "Why do you have Jesus hanging on a pagan symbol?"...
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my self I have wondered why not use a pole with a pulley at the top ,then with a rope running down to pull the man up . let him hang there till he dies . bind his feet so that he could not push himself up. it suffocation that ultmently kills . i then realised that a relative could cut the rope to get him down. nails would prevent that from happening. nails are forever
[We know something about the death of Jesus, and there are things that are assumed to have happened. We know he was nailed to a thing made of wood. How long was it? How deep the hole it was set into, what did it all weigh, how far off the ground were his feet, and how many nails were used—2,3,or 4? How many men did it take to stand it all up? How did [his body] get taken down? We were not told many things but there are clues. Does anyone want to play?]
I do not wish to play, but indeed we have clues, both through text and archaeology.
The three to be executed probably each had a squad of 4 soldiers (eg Ac.12:4), in line with the 4 clothing items (outer robe, belt, headpiece, & sandals) divided between 4 soldiers, with the 5th item, the seamless undergarment, won by one of them (not the centurion) by casting lots (throwing dice). The cross had a main post, plus a crossbeam which Jesus carried partway (a common burden for the condemned and not all flayed bodies could carry it the full distance). Crosses (stauroi) came in several shapes and often of two-parts. The vertical stake needed to be only long enough for a crime sheet above the head, and the feet to be above ground level. A few inches would suffice, but a woven hyssop stalk (kalamos) might suggest up to a foot off the ground. Its two-section weight would depend of several factors, eg type and quantity of wood plus some nails and a body. The hole would have to make the cross secure: crucifixion was down to a fine art. Once secured by nails or ropes, the condemned would be raised up by ropes. A squad could have done this easily enough, with fellow soldiers under a centurion on hand for crowd control. Three nails would have been used, one for the ankles, and one for each wrist. Whether they removed the cross before removing the corpse I know not, but I suspect that after the centurion deemed Jesus to be a son of a god, a little more respect would have kicked in. Nails were removed and reused.
I just wanted to say that the Bible shows us the JW's are wrong about the "torture stake". They show Jesus with one large nail put through both hands placed one upon the other. But Thomas says this in John 20:
"The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see IN HIS HANDS THE PRINT OF THE NAILS, and put my finger into the print of the NAILS, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe". (John 20:25)
Thomas is stating that more than one nail was used on Jesus' hands when he was crucified. He was definitely put on a cross. The Bible is amazing--by adding the "s" in the above word to "nail" the whole JW theory is shown to be hogwash.
If I were a JW, which I am not, I might suggest that Jesus' wrists had been nailed to his stake.
It wouldn't matter. Thomas clearly says that he wants to see the print of the "nails" in his "hands". Point being--if only one large nail were used (as the JW's show in their drawing of Jesus nailed to the "stake" with one hand over the other) Thomas would not have said "nails". Thomas and the other disciples (especially John who stood right at the cross) KNEW how Jesus had been crucified. So Thomas knew that EACH hand had a separate nail driven through it---that is why he says he wants to see the print of the "nails" in his hands. Jesus was obviously crucified on a cross, not a "torture stake".
IMHO it would matter, and if I were a JW I might simply draw a picture depicting Jesus on a torture stake with a nail through his feet (one nail), and two more nails for wrists either side to fit easier with Jhn.20:25, instead of wrists nailed together (one nail). They could keep their torture stake and add a nail. And as a JW.org page says howbeit in current terms, “The soldiers pound nails into his hands and his feet, piercing flesh and ligaments, causing intense pain.”
Vinny----- the problem is they have a piece of very old art that they rely on. Sure----they could change it if they WANTED to, but they don't want to do that. So, you have a picture showing Jesus with one hand over the other and one nail pounded through them. And his feet also have one nail. The point I'm making is that what Thomas says DESTROYS what the picture shows. The Bible has a way of overcoming any contradiction or false teaching that others throw at it.
Old art, sure, but new text as I cited. So for them, Change their art or change their text. They do not claim that their artist was at the crime scene; they claim that John was; bury the artist... Anyway I think we've said enough on this one.
The point of crucifixion was a demonstration of what happens to enemies of Rome.
It was a cruel degrading death in an age that valued dignity and status, both of which were lost in crucifixion.
There are plenty of article around that demonstrate that the traditional view of crucifixion maximised the suffering of the victim and that show that hands over the head resulted in a quick death.
How high was the cross? Irrelevant as it was on a hill/mound close to a road so the victims could clearly be seen.
Some additional thoughts:-
Why should status conscious Romans follow a God that was executed, er what sort of God can be executed!
A God who was a manual worker! Who came from where, a remote unimportant province!
What change ones behaviours, view slaves as being ones equals!
Think about the above, why did so many in the ancient world believe inspire of the listed real problems?
Think about today's society, how similar is it to the roman/Greek world and how should we be living.
It was a cruel degrading death in an age that valued dignity and status, both of which were lost in crucifixion.
There are plenty of article around that demonstrate that the traditional view of crucifixion maximised the suffering of the victim and that show that hands over the head resulted in a quick death.
How high was the cross? Irrelevant as it was on a hill/mound close to a road so the victims could clearly be seen.
Some additional thoughts:-
Why should status conscious Romans follow a God that was executed, er what sort of God can be executed!
A God who was a manual worker! Who came from where, a remote unimportant province!
What change ones behaviours, view slaves as being ones equals!
Think about the above, why did so many in the ancient world believe inspire of the listed real problems?
Think about today's society, how similar is it to the roman/Greek world and how should we be living.
Consecrated Life
Member
One thing you will never see in any depiction of our Lord's taking the penalty for our sin is that as his own mother and family looked on he hung there completely naked.