Bible Study Daniel 9-revisited

[noblej6]

Hi Forum,

I have never spent many late nights figuring out what Daniel's chapter 9 was about. As far as I'm concerned it is old news in that the bible reveals the real thing in the NT.

However, on this website there are a lot of people who use Daniel 9 for a big part of their doctrinal foundation so this should be a place where there are an abundance of ideas.

Let's unravel Daniels predictions and Daniels words.

I think we will have agreement that the first 23 verses of this chapter are concerning a prayer that Daniel was sayin in the first year of Darius the Mede.


At first glance I thought the 70 weeks of 24 were from the first year of Darius, but on a closer look I agree with Cameron that this would start from some decree to rebuild.

What next?

noble6

 

[noblej6]

Hi Forum,

Four decrees issued by three Persian kings

1. Cyrus 538/537 BC granted return of the Jews from exile and rebuilding of the temple
2. Darius I about 520 BC reaffirmed and expedited the order of Cyrus to rebuild the temple
3. Artaxerxes I 457 BC given to Ezra, re-established the autonomy of Judah
4. Artaxerxes I 445/444 BC to Nehemiah, granted permission to repair Jerusalem

Anybody have better dates for this decree being issued?

noble6

 

[guibox]

Here is one scenario

1) The standard decree (though it is debated) is number 4, 457 BC.

When you add the 70 weeks of years (the sabbatical 490 years) to 457 BC (taking into account that there is no 0 AD) you come to 34 AD when Stephen was stoned and the gospel went en mass to the Gentiles. The fate of the Jewish nation as a whole was sealed, thus signifying the end of the years 'determined upon thy people' spoken of in Daniel 9:24-27.

Messiah the Prince being Christ made an atonement for sin on the cross and in the middle of the week (3 1/2 years) was crucified (31 AD) after the last 3 1/2 years, Stephen was stoned and the 70 weeks were ended.

I don't believe in moving the 70th week of Daniel into the last days as it completely removes it from the rest of the prophecy that was understood in the historical context and understanding of the Hebrews and Daniel. To me it is the equivalent of making up a math test for grade 3 and making 3/4 of the test simple addition and the last quarter algebra.


The problem with the above scenario I gave is:

1) How can you be sure 457 BC is the right decree?
2) Some say that the decree is actually from God in Heaven and not some earthly monarch, thus placing the start of the vision when Daniel received it
3) Is Messiah the Prince really Christ?
4) Not all the characteristics of Daniel 9:26,27 can really apply to Christ but to the second 'prince' spoken of...who then is this prince?

This is the standard view of my church and a few others.

For very insightful (but at times difficult) explanation of Daniel 8 and 9, check out this site.

http://www.jesusinstituteforum.org

 

[noblej6]

Hi guibox,

Well, you have reasons for your choice and you go the extra step of outlining possible question. I like that.It makes it honest as far as I'm concerned.

If Darius was the one in 520 BC then this would have to be finished up in about 30 BC. I can't think of anything happening at that time to tie into much.

I guess we really don't know for certain that it is 490 years either, but there is some biblical support for the assumption.

noble6

 

[ddubsolo85]

But what do you do with scriptures like Isaiah 66?

Isa 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.


Isa 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? [or] shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.


Isa 66:9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut [the womb]? saith thy God.


Isa 66:10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:


Isa 66:11 That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.


Isa 66:12 For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon [her] sides, and be dandled upon [her] knees.


Isa 66:13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.


Isa 66:14 And when ye see [this], your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the LORD shall be known toward his servants, and [his] indignation toward his enemies.

God says He will extend peace to Jerusalem, and make her glorious after the great tribulation. However, that didn't happen after AD 70. So how could the great tribulation possibly already taken place?

God Bless!

 

[noblej6]

Hi ddub,

Note: I don't think what I am about to say follows either the partial or full preterist theology real great.......

When I consider the Great tribulation taking place in 70 AD it necessarily means that many things which are described in the bible as happening at that time such as resurrections of the dead, the ending of 'sleep' at the parousia, the establishment of the Kingdom of Heaven, are all in the Heavenly, spiritual realm. All these events would necessarily be invisible to mortal man.

So when you consider a 70 AD fulfillment as that, many things do not happen as futurists have been taught so looking for certain things in a past fullfillment situation doesn't fit well. Jesus does not return to earth physically , He returns to each person at death, in the spiritual realm unseen by the living at the time. Now I don't think partial preterists would agree with that and I don't think that fits with the full preterist idea either. I just deal with the bible not 'isms'.

The peace in Jerusalem, I would see in the new city which is the spiritual city of jerusalem which of course is Heaven.

Heaven becomes functional for the common man at the parousia. All Alive back then would have since died and the believers would have gone to Heaven and will remain there forever. Before that parousia people who died slept in the dust aware of nothing until the time of the parousia. Then all who had died prior to 70 AD were spiritually resurrected to Heaven. Since the parousia of 70 AD all who die experience their second coming or meeting with Jesus Christ and are raised at that time(of their death) to the Heavenly realm, again to remain there forever.

That's a lengthy answer for how the tribulation took place as the rebellion of Judea and there are other explanations as well, but I don't know the inner workings of those. I couldn't think of a short anser.

noble6

 

[ddubsolo85]

@ noblej6

Note: I don't think what I am about to say follows either the partial or full preterist theology real great.......

When I consider the Great tribulation taking place in 70 AD it necessarily means that many things which are described in the bible as happening at that time such as resurrections of the dead, the ending of 'sleep' at the parousia, the establishment of the Kingdom of Heaven, are all in the Heavenly, spiritual realm. All these events would necessarily be invisible to mortal man.

I don't believe that matches with what the Bible says-

Jer 32:37 Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them AGAIN unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely:

Unless you believe they've already dwelled in heaven,...

So when you consider a 70 AD fulfillment as that, many things do not happen as futurists have been taught so looking for certain things in a past fullfillment situation doesn't fit well. Jesus does not return to earth physically , He returns to each person at death, in the spiritual realm unseen by the living at the time.

The time of Jesus' physical return? Very debatable. But I don't know how you can debate whether or not He physically returns with verses like this one:

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Now I don't think partial preterists would agree with that and I don't think that fits with the full preterist idea either. I just deal with the bible not 'isms'.

I definitely can understand and respect that.

The peace in Jerusalem, I would see in the new city which is the spiritual city of jerusalem which of course is Heaven.

Again, you'll have to show where they've already been to heaven because of Jer. 32:37 and others like it.

That's a lengthy answer for how the tribulation took place as the rebellion of Judea and there are other explanations as well, but I don't know the inner workings of those. I couldn't think of a short anser.

I appreciate you taking the time to answer my question. Thanks for the long answer.

God Bless!

 

[noblej6]

Hi ddub,

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

I'll just quickly explain how I look at this verse.

I see it as the eyes of the dead that see Jesus when they enter the spiritual realm. That is one way that every eye can indeed see Jesus. At least the last time Jesus was on earth not every eye saw Him and I don't know how everybody on the sphere of the earth vcan see Him at the same time.

Here is also some food for thought. The bible says at that time if someone says to you, "THere He is" do not believe it. The reason being that you are physically dead when you see Jesus. If someone says to you "There He is" you would be alive to hear a mortal talk to you and you should not believe it.

Take care,
noble6

 

[noblej6]

Hi forum,

back to Daniel 9

24 "Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.

25 "Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. "

I really don't see this addin up to anything. There is some devine mystery here methinks and we'll die not knowing it. I've went over this for hours and don't get anything fit ogether.

noble6

noble6

 

[Darrell dunn]

First the covenant of seventy weeks is between the Jews and God, Dan.9:24
So the final week will be between God and the Jews.

Rev.7;4-8 the sealing of 144,000 Jews.

Dan.11:30-31 The AC will be against the Holy covenant.

Rev.12:17 and the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the cammandments of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ.