Daniel's Seventy Weeks

[RandyK]

Abraham made a mistake when he listened to his Sarah to have a child with Hagar her maid. This reminds me of Gone with the Wind where Rhett Butler had a choice between two women. The Arab population is estimated to be over 400 million, while the Jewish population is around 15 million.

While the novel and film have been criticized for their romanticized portrayal of the Old South, they do depict the stark contrast between characters who embrace the antebellum way of life and those who reject it. If you're thinking of Rhett Butler’s choice between these two women, he is drawn to Scarlett’s fiery spirit but also respects Melanie’s goodness. His relationship with Scarlett is passionate but tumultuous, while his admiration for Melanie is rooted in her unwavering kindness.

Abraham erred by listening to his wife, Sarah. That, of course, did not destroy God's plan for Abraham and Sarah, nor does it mean his children through other wives are utterly rejected by God.

What it does mean, however, is that when people makes choices apart from God there is going to be a mixed blessing, with some failures along the way. God will still save the nation Israel. But history has lasted as long as it has because it simply takes this long to get where God wants both Israel and the nations to be.

 

[Elijah7777]

when people makes choices apart from God there is going to be a mixed blessing,

We are blessed when we do what God says to do and we are not blessed when we do what He tells us not to do. Somehow we think we are going to get away with it, but we never do.

 

[RandyK]

We are blessed when we do what God says to do and we are not blessed when we do what He tells us not to do. Somehow we think we are going to get away with it, but we never do.

I don't make too much of a generalization like that, though what you say is true. Adam and Eve sinned, and yet they prevailed. Jacob wrestled with the angel, and prevailed. We all sin, and yet somehow we find salvation.

God put it in our heart to obey Him. Just because we go about it the wrong way doesn't mean we aren't eventually on track to get it right or to make it right.

A lot of people have gotten married in the wrong way, and things didn't turn out well. But these same people can get it right in the failing marriage, or can get it right in the next marriage.

Yes, we sin, but it is often mixed with a desire to do the right thing. Ultimately, we get the chance to make it right and do make it right. That means a blessing can ultimately come out of a curse, and I think that's been true for all of us.

Sorry if this sounds a bit simple. But the reality is, Adam and Eve sinned, and on the inside they really pursued the knowledge of God. They did it wrong the 1st time. The 2nd time they got it right.

Their children were hurt by the wrong they did. But many children have found salvation.

 

[for_his_glory]

Do you think God made a mistake when He told Abraham He would make a "nation" from him? Do you think God did not know the problems that would be associated with assembling an entire nation of faith?

Remember what happened when the people rose up to play after Moses had taken them out of Egypt?

Exo 32.9 “I have seen these people,” the Lord said to Moses, “and they are a stiff-necked people. 10 Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation.”

Israel, as a people, turned against Moses as if he was a "failed prophet," and used that as an excuse to indulge their carnal interests, their sexual perversions, their desire to control what their god says. But instead of calling for their destruction, Moses interceded for them. That's the heart of a true man of God, a true prophet.

God really didn't intend to destroy Israel, because he knew that Moses was like Himself, being patient with the people and willing to forgive them until a faithful people could emerge from within the whole nation to mold a complete nation of faith by.

Incidentally, the only time Moses really erred in his journey through the Wilderness was when he did lose patience with Israel. He slammed the rock twice to call forth water from it, showing his own emotion rather than God's patience. God did not want us to lose patience with those God has targeted to do work with.

So God was saying that He could make a whole nation from one man of faith, namely Moses. But Moses deferred to others in Israel, because he believed God could arrange to have a strong remnant of faith from which to build an entire nation.

No, God intends to have a "nation," and not just a remnant of faith. He will build the whole nation around principles of faith so that an entire nation will fulfill what God promised to Abraham. God will never break His word.

In our time Israel is still in her "time of national punishment." Even though God has graciously allowed the Jews to return to their land they are still under punishment. God is letting the world abuse them, to hopefully turn some of them back to Himself.Do you believe that Nat

The time will come when Christian Civilization will completely collapse, and that time is not far off. This will be the time when all nations threaten Israel's destruction. But God will save a remnant, and remake a new nation of faith with the return of Christ. That's my interpretation of biblical prophecy, and I'm sticking with it! ;)

Do you believe in Genesis 17:5 when God told Abraham he would be the father of many nations that those nations were just of Israel, or for all the many different nations up to the time of Christ return.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[for_his_glory]

A remnant is usually 10%. God saved one third of Israel, and I believe He will save one third today. But for me, only 10% serve God and represent God. We are told many are called, but few are chosen. They want to be used, but they are not willing to pay the price of Holiness and Sanctification to be qualified to be used by God. He watches every word they say, so that can also be difficult.

Zechariah 13 8And in all the land, declares the LORD, two-thirds will be cut off and perish, but a third will be left in it. 9This third I will bring through the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on My name, and I will answer them. I will say, ‘They are My people,’ and they will say, ‘The LORD is our God.’”

This is a cross reference to Zechariah 13:8. Not sure, but this could be about the 144,000 we read about in Rev 7:1-8.

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

 

[RandyK]

Do you believe in Genesis 17:5 when God told Abraham he would be the father of many nations that those nations were just of Israel, or for all the many different nations up to the time of Christ return.

I don't read it that way. According to Paul God had been speaking of future nations that would become Christian.

Gal 3.8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

God is indiscriminate in His choice to obtain believers from all nations--not just Israel.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Paul is here talking not about the cessation of national, ethnic, and language groups. Rather, he is talking about God not discriminating anymore against other nations and ethnicities, no longer showing preference for Israel alone, as He had done under the Law.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Abraham was promised children of faith both in the nation of Israel (there must be a nation 1st), and from other nations (there must be a multiplicity of nations that like Israel become a *nation* of faith.

 

[Elijah7777]

Not sure, but this could be about the 144,000 we read about in Rev 7:1-8.

I think the 144,000 will be the Hasidic. They are already teaching so they will not be doing anything any different from what they are doing now.

 

[for_his_glory]

I think the 144,000 will be the Hasidic. They are already teaching so they will not be doing anything any different from what they are doing now.

Rev 7 These servants are the generational 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel, except for the tribe of Dan and Ephraim as they fell to idol worship and allowed God to be removed from them, Judges 18:30; 1 Kings12:25-33; Hosea 5:9, 11;Psalms 78:9-17, 65-67. To keep it twelve tribes since Dan and Ephraim are not mentioned in vs. 4-8 the tribe of Joseph appears twice, once under his own name and once under the name of his son Issachar/Manasseh. Judah is mentioned first as Messiah was to come from the lineage of David.

​

 

[Elijah7777]

Rev 7 These servants are the generational 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel, except for the tribe of Dan and Ephraim

Somethings are to complicated for us. I ran the genealogy for my grandmother back three generations. That is difficult enough for me to figure out. Yet we are told these people are pure virgins. Science can confirm that for the Cohan gene. This kind of purity not only has to do with fidelity in marriage but also adoption. For me I trust God that He is going to do exactly what He says He is going to do. Some interpretations suggest they will serve as evangelists during the Tribulation, spreading God's message and leading people to faith. If this were the case, they would not just appear out of nowhere. They would already be doing what they will do during the tribulation, if there is a 7 year tribulation. Neil Degrasse asteroid apophis in 2029 and 2036. The dates look very exact. 2029 seems to fall on good friday and 2036 seems to fall on resurrection sunday. Luke 21:25 mentions signs in the sun, moon, and stars. Of course the church was born 50 days later from passover on Pentacost when Peter was preaching in the upper room and they were amazed that the gentiles were able to receive the Holy Spirit with what some people call the evidence of speaking in unknown tongues. I had a friend who did missionary work and he said he learned the language in almost an instant.

 

[for_his_glory]

Somethings are to complicated for us. I ran the genealogy for my grandmother back three generations. That is difficult enough for me to figure out. Yet we are told these people are pure virgins. Science can confirm that for the Cohan gene. This kind of purity not only has to do with fidelity in marriage but also adoption. For me I trust God that He is going to do exactly what He says He is going to do. Some interpretations suggest they will serve as evangelists during the Tribulation, spreading God's message and leading people to faith. If this were the case, they would not just appear out of nowhere. They would already be doing what they will do during the tribulation, if there is a 7 year tribulation. Neil Degrasse asteroid apophis in 2029 and 2036. The dates look very exact. 2029 seems to fall on good friday and 2036 seems to fall on resurrection sunday. Luke 21:25 mentions signs in the sun, moon, and stars. Of course the church was born 50 days later from passover on Pentacost when Peter was preaching in the upper room and they were amazed that the gentiles were able to receive the Holy Spirit with what some people call the evidence of speaking in unknown tongues. I had a friend who did missionary work and he said he learned the language in almost an instant.

This is the importance of the 144,000 of the house of Israel and their generations unto the end of days. There were those of the old covenant that were faithful to God in keeping all his commandments and repented of their idol worshiping. Their generations who have also come back to Gods grace that are still alive during the seven trumpet sounds will continue to preach to the Jews as it was with the twelve disciples in Matthew 10:6. The generations of the 144,000 that are still alive have the seal of God on them which are the seven Spirits of God as they will have to endure much persecution until the end of days before the return of Jesus.
(Seven Spirits of God are found in Isaiah 11:2 and mentioned in Rev 1:4.
Spirit of the Lord, wisdom, understanding, counsel, power, knowledge and fear/respect of the Lord.)

This has nothing to do with science or date setting that is heavily debated, but what the word of God says. If you would like to start a new thread on the New Jerusalem please tag me into it.

 

[Elijah7777]

This is the importance of the 144,000 of the house of Israel and their generations unto the end of days. There were those of the old covenant that were faithful to God in keeping all his commandments and repented of their idol worshiping.

There are 613 commandments. It is the Hasidic and other conservatives that keep the commandments. In the church this would have more to do with the holiness movement and Wesley. Although he regretted that he did not set the standard higher.

This has nothing to do with science or date setting that is heavily debated, but what the word of God says

You are contradicting yourself. We are not here to serve Science, Science is here to serve us. We use Science as a method to better understand God's word for us. Science continues to give us evidence as to how accurate and true the Bible really is.

 

[RandyK]

I think the 144,000 will be the Hasidic. They are already teaching so they will not be doing anything any different from what they are doing now.

The 144,000 is, I think, symbolic of God's promises to all 12 tribes *when they existed as such.* It makes no sense to see the tribes differentiated and still in existence today. It hasn't been possible for millennia because the tribes after the captivities melded into two nations, or kingdoms.

Today, the nation Israel consists of all 12 tribes merged into it. The whole reason it was told John there would be 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes is because we would know that has to be symbolic--it cannot be literal. The idea is that God has fulfilled and will continue to fulfill the promise God made Abraham to create a nation from Abraham's line, emerging from all of Jacob's boys. Nobody has been left out from the 12 tribes, though at times they were bad.

This has made the "Dragon" angry. He doesn't believe Israel deserves to exist. But God has not only included all 12 tribes in the nation in ancient times, but he will also save *an entire nation* today--not just a small remnant.

While it is true that only a small remnant is faithful in Israel today, namely those who have accepted Christ, God will bring the *entire nation* to faith one day soon. This will happen, I believe, when the wicked in Israel are judged, along with all of the nations who have abused Israel. Then Christ will come and reform the nation along the lines of those who have had faith in Christ. That is the story, I believe.

 

[Elijah7777]

The 144,000 is, I think, symbolic of God's promises to all 12 tribes

I can understand that, because it would be impossible for the 144,000 to be pure virgins today. This is clearly a miracle from God. The Bible is a miracle that God has preserved His word all of these years.

For me there is just to much ink that goes into this passage for it not to be literal. When He names the tribe and tell us He will preserved 12,000 from each tribe then this is no longer symbolic. It is literal if we follow Bible interpretation that they teach us in Bible college. Bible interpretation, also known as hermeneutics, is a key subject in Bible colleges.

 

[RandyK]

I can understand that, because it would be impossible for the 144,000 to be pure virgins today. This is clearly a miracle from God. The Bible is a miracle that God has preserved His word all of these years.

For me there is just to much ink that goes into this passage for it not to be literal. When He names the tribe and tell us He will preserved 12,000 from each tribe then this is no longer symbolic. It is literal if we follow Bible interpretation that they teach us in Bible college. Bible interpretation, also known as hermeneutics, is a key subject in Bible colleges.

Understood. It is a principle of interpretation that when a passage obviously is not meant to be literal, it is to be taken symbolically. That is how metaphors, etc. work. I tell you the cat jumped over the moon, and you do not take that literally because I generally "speak the truth."

As you said, it is not likely to be 144,000 virgins in the literal sense. And so, we must take is symbolically. So much of the Revelation is symbolic anyway--after all, it is a vision! It is seen after John is taken up to heaven!

This is not just a "miracle," and God can, of course, do anything. But is it like God to scramble the language and the logic so bad that nobody can read and understand? I don't think so.

As I said, the tribes ceased to exist way back when they coalesced into a nation. They maintained tribal identities to some degree, but the tribal boundaries came to an end BC.

So this passage has to do with picturing how God is fulfilling His eternal promise to Israel, by honoring the memory of all 12 tribes by symbolically portraying them almost as an small country. They are equally represented not to the exact number to show literal numbers, but to show God's equal, impartial attention to each son of Jacob.

This is the same methodology God used when showing His vision of the Temple to Ezekiel. That obviously was not a literal Temple either, even though exact dimensions are used. It is because it was still under the Temple system, and the reforms God called upon utilized a symbol they all knew and understood. But it did not reflect the real Temple, being that it had been destroyed, and this one was high up on a mountain.

So God did this before with Ezekiel, giving a symbolic vision to promote reform. And He is doing this again in the Revelation, to show John His continuing attention to the salvation of all Israel.

But I have no problem with those who want to believe it refers to literal tribes. My major concern is that people realize this is about Israel's literal national salvation. God will not break His promise!

 

[Elijah7777]

It is a principle of interpretation that when a passage obviously is not meant to be literal, it is to be taken symbolically.

All of the Bible is literal first and symbolic second. We ONLY teach the literal Bible to our Sunday School students. We have students that can memorize up to 300 verses with the referance.

it is not likely to be 144,000 virgins in the literal sense.

The Hasidic are very devoted to being virgins when they get married. That is literal. The symbolic meaning is that their genealogy is pure. There was a scene in the movie "A Stranger Among Us". The film portrays the Hasidic community’s deep-rooted traditions, including their belief in arranged marriages and the idea that God has chosen a soulmate for each person.

The conversation with the rabbi’s son, touches on these values, emphasizing the importance of spiritual and physical purity before marriage. Ariel explains that he is waiting for his intended, whom he has never met, but believes is his divinely chosen partner.

This is not just a "miracle,"

It is a miracle because you say it is not possible. That is what makes it a miracle that they have maintained their purity all of these thousands of years. Look at the Holocaust in Germany where so many Hebrews were killed. The Nazis sought to create what they called a "racially pure" society based on their ideology of Aryan supremacy. They targeted groups they considered "undesirable" or a threat to their vision of racial purity.

The connection between abortion and eugenics has been debated in historical and ethical discussions. Some scholars argue that early proponents of birth control, like Margaret Sanger, were influenced by eugenic ideas, advocating for limiting reproduction among certain populations

My dad was one of the first to liberate the concentration camps in Germay when he was stationed there as a doctor right after WW2. Also the Principal and the Director of my High School were Holocaust survivors.

But I have no problem with those who want to believe it refers to literal tribes. My major concern is that people realize this is about Israel's literal national salvation. God will not break His promise!

“Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” ;Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

You do not think the Bible means what the Bible says that God is going to "put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God" Of course that is my question. Who are these servants of God. You try to say they do not exist and God is going to put a symbolic seal on symbolic people.

According to many interpretations of the Book of Revelation, the 144,000 are sealed by God as His witnesses during the Tribulation period. They are described as Messianic Jews, chosen from the 12 tribes of Israel, and they proclaim the Gospel with great zeal and divine protection. Their mission is to call people to repentance and warn of God's impending judgment.

That is fine if you have a different interpretation. Ultimately, the acceptance of this interpretation depends on one's eschatological framework—whether one follows a premillennial, amillennial, or postmillennial view of end-times prophecy.

 

[for_his_glory]

There are 613 commandments. It is the Hasidic and other conservatives that keep the commandments. In the church this would have more to do with the holiness movement and Wesley. Although he regretted that he did not set the standard higher.

You are contradicting yourself. We are not here to serve Science, Science is here to serve us. We use Science as a method to better understand God's word for us. Science continues to give us evidence as to how accurate and true the Bible really is.

Hasidic Judaism is a branch of Orthodox Judaism that emerged in the 18th century in Eastern Europe. It is characterized by its emphasis on mysticism, spirituality and devotion to a leader known as Rebbe in whom they believe is their channel to God. Rebbe is a Yiddish-German word that connotes a spiritual leader and master of theology in the Hasidic movement.

Science is all fine and dandy, but it is the Holy Spirit that gives evidence of God within all His creation and to know the word of God is true.

 

[for_his_glory]

Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Rev 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Firstfruits refers to those who dedicate themselves to God and His Son Christ Jesus that are not defiled by the temptations (lust) of the world. This is why they are called virgins as they remain obedient to the commands of God and walk in His ways. They are without fault before the Throne of God. It does not mean they are not married, but stay faithful to God in marriage as they do not commit adultery.

 

[Elijah7777]

Science is all fine and dandy, but it is the Holy Spirit that gives evidence of God within all His creation and to know the word of God is true.

The point is that the word of God often was oral tradition. It is a miracle of God that He has preserved His word the way He has through the generations. We need to look at where we got our Bible from. The Bible’s preservation is remarkable, considering its origins in oral tradition before being written down. Many biblical accounts, laws, and teachings were passed down verbally for generations before being recorded.

 

[for_his_glory]

The point is that the word of God often was oral tradition. It is a miracle of God that He has preserved His word the way He has through the generations. We need to look at where we got our Bible from. The Bible’s preservation is remarkable, considering its origins in oral tradition before being written down. Many biblical accounts, laws, and teachings were passed down verbally for generations before being recorded.

I agree and thank God for His Holy Spirit that teaches us all truths.

 

[Elijah7777]

I agree and thank God for His Holy Spirit that teaches us all truths.

I remember when I would read the Bible and did not understand what I was reading. They told me to pray for the Holy Spirit to help me. I did pray and the Bible started to make sense after that.