Debate, but in Charity

[Catholic Crusader]

There have been some problems in this forum with debates turning into insults, and I share in the blame, for which I apologize to any I have offended. As a great example of how Christians from very different perspectives can discuss their diffences in a charitable way, I'd like to make a suggestion, and I hope everyone reading this will indulge me. Here is a link to an mp3:

http://www.bringyou.to/ScottHahnBAM1990.mp3

This is an episode of the "Bible Answer Man", a protestant radio show. The guest is Dr Scott Hahn, a former Presbyterian who is now a Catholic and Professor of Scripture and Theology at Franciscan University of Steubenville, Ohio. Not only is this a great example of how Christians can share their beliefs in a charitable manner, but it expounds on two often discussed issues giving good viewpoints for each side:

1) At the 10 min 40 sec mark, the topic of Salvation is discussed with an emphasis on Justification
2) At the 8 minute mark the issue of the inerrency of Scripture is touched on.

And there is more. The whole mp3 is worth listening to. I hope you guys will find the time to do so. Perhaps it will also help inform some of the discussions going on in other threads.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Sometimes we argue a lot. I was thinking it might soften us up a litle if we could put a face to the posts. So I started a picture thread. Go post your pic so we can all see each other's mugg:
LINK: viewtopic.php?f=28&t=32083

 

[Vic C.]

ok. :-D

 

[cyberjosh]

I just had the most random thought, but everytime I look at your avatar CC it seems like it comes off like the Pope just smacked someone up side the head and said "Take that"! :-D Maybe that's what gets me about it. ;)

 

[cyberjosh]

ok. :-D

Go back to Roswell where you belong. ;) "Vic phone hooooome..."

 

[Catholic Crusader]

I just had the most random thought, but everytime I look at your avatar CC it seems like it comes off like the Pope just smacked someone up side the head and said "Take that"! :-D Maybe that's what gets me about it. ;)

It seems to be a common gesture with popes, to raise their hands up like that. Frankly, I don't know where that comes from, but I would like to.

 

[Vic C.]

Maybe he's waiting for a pass from Eli Manning? :-D

 

[Veritas]

I bet he likes to hug :D

 

[Catholic Crusader]

There have been some problems in this forum with debates turning into insults, and I share in the blame, for which I apologize to any I have offended. As a great example of how Christians from very different perspectives can discuss their diffences in a charitable way, I'd like to make a suggestion, and I hope everyone reading this will indulge me. Here is a link to an mp3:

http://www.bringyou.to/ScottHahnBAM1990.mp3

This is an episode of the "Bible Answer Man", a protestant radio show. The guest is Dr Scott Hahn, a former Presbyterian who is now a Catholic and Professor of Scripture and Theology at Franciscan University of Steubenville, Ohio. Not only is this a great example of how Christians can share their beliefs in a charitable manner, but it expounds on two often discussed issues giving good viewpoints for each side:

1) At the 10 min 40 sec mark, the topic of Salvation is discussed with an emphasis on Justification
2) At the 8 minute mark the issue of the inerrency of Scripture is touched on.

And there is more. The whole mp3 is worth listening to. I hope you guys will find the time to do so. Perhaps it will also help inform some of the discussions going on in other threads.

Okay. Enough about the pope's gesticular activities. Who listened to the mp3 in the OP ?

 

[Drew]

There have been some problems in this forum with debates turning into insults.....

Dude, you should have been here a year ago back. The present situation is like a veritable love-fest compared to what it was then......

 

[Vic C.]

[attachment=0:049e6]character_188.gif[/attachment:049e6]


:-D

 

[Veritas]

Catholic Crusader, I listened to parts of it... including the parts you've touched on.

One of the points that stood out to me was when Hahn was talking about the family of Catholism holding the Truth down through the ages... I think that is true, but I don't think it's been done perfectly. In addition to that, I believe the family of Christians is not limited to Catholics. I get different answers in regard to this from Catholics as to what they believe the other Christians status really is, but more often than not I get the impression we are not really considered full Christians.

As far as justification goes, I don't really understand what Hahn was trying to get across. I think it's great that Catholics (at least the ones on this show) claim that they are NOT earning their way to heaven. However, when he goes on to explain what he believes, it seems like he does. And I've talked to many many Catholics who apparently don't quite understand as well, and think they must somehow earn their way.

 

[francisdesales]

There have been some problems in this forum with debates turning into insults.....

Dude, you should have been here a year ago back. The present situation is like a veritable love-fest compared to what it was then......

You got that right, Drew... What a difference from last year, esp. from where I sit (there were several very anti-catholic people here who were had a hard time keeping their conversation at a non-confrontational level). However, these same people, I noticed, had no problems attacking non-catholics, either...

Regards

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Catholic Crusader, I listened to parts of it... including the parts you've touched on.
One of the points that stood out to me was when Hahn was talking about the family of Catholism holding the Truth down through the ages... I think that is true, but I don't think it's been done perfectly....

Well, as I said, the talk may inform other threads: I don't want Vic to get mad at me for going into a Catholic/protestant thing in here . But briefly: We believe that the Church cannot err in "Doctrine" (Faith & Morals). However, She can err in other areas, like doing just plain old dumb things as we humans are so prone to do. The pope getting made at Galileo being a great example.

...In addition to that, I believe the family of Christians is not limited to Catholics. I get different answers in regard to this from Catholics as to what they believe the other Christians status really is, but more often than not I get the impression we are not really considered full Christians.

The Catechism is quite clear that all who are in Christ deserve the name "Christian" and are recognized as brothers & sisters by the Catholic Church. Please, read for yourself, paragraphs 817-819, right here: http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1 ... p3.htm#817

....As far as justification goes, I don't really understand what Hahn was trying to get across. I think it's great that Catholics (at least the ones on this show) claim that they are NOT earning their way to heaven. However, when he goes on to explain what he believes, it seems like he does. And I've talked to many many Catholics who apparently don't quite understand as well, and think they must somehow earn their way....

One of the great truths of our time is that most Catholics don't know squat about their faith. Scott Hahn was trying to say that Justification, according to the Council of Trent, means the full reality of becoming a son of God. Since sonship is a dynamic ongoing growth, he was saying that justification is therefore an ongoing proceess. We view it in familistic terms, as opposed to the general protestant outlook of viewing it in a sort of courtroom setting where one is "declared righteous" (although we affirm that this to is part of it, but not reduced to that).

 

[Veritas]

Well, as I said, the talk may inform other threads: I don't want Vic to get mad at me for going into a Catholic/protestant thing in here . But briefly: We believe that the Church cannot err in "Doctrine" (Faith & Morals). However, She can err in other areas, like doing just plain old dumb things as we humans are so prone to do. The pope getting made at Galileo being a great example.

I'm glad to see that concession is made about being in error on dumb things. Unfortunately, I do consider some of the "Doctrine" in error too (I don't want to make it a debate here either as we've got lots of other threads for that).

The Catechism is quite clear that all who are in Christ deserve the name "Christian" and are recognized as brothers & sisters by the Catholic Church. Please, read for yourself, paragraphs 817-819, right here: http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1 ... p3.htm#817

Thank you for pointing me there.... glad to be considered a brother in Christ officially. I noticed the bit about other churches getting their power from the Catholic Church... can't say I agree with that fully, I'm sure some of what other churches have recieved was from God working through men in the Catholic Church... but I think God has worked outside those bounds quite a bit as well.

One of the great truths of our time is that most Catholics don't know squat about their faith. Scott Hahn was trying to say that Justification, according to the Council of Trent, means the full reality of becoming a son of God. Since sonship is a dynamic ongoing growth, he was saying that justification is therefore an ongoing proceess. We view it in familistic terms, as opposed to the general protestant outlook of viewing it in a sort of courtroom setting where one is "declared righteous" (although we affirm that this to is part of it, but not reduced to that).

What do you think about looking at in terms of God looking at us through Christ? So that when God sees us through Christ; we appear innocent and holy. That's how this protestant thinks of it.

Could you describe the familistic terms a bit more?

 

[Catholic Crusader]

What do you think about looking at in terms of God looking at us through Christ? So that when God sees us through Christ; we appear innocent and holy. That's how this protestant thinks of it. Could you describe the familistic terms a bit more?

You may not realize it, but you are mirroring Martin Luther's thoughts. Its actually a cultural thing. In Germany, farmers stacked piles of dung. They were proud of there piles of dung, and stacked it high to show their wealth. When the snow would cover their dung, it looked pristine - dung underneath, but white as snow on the outside. Luther saw this, and saw the covering of Christ the same: We are still fallen underneath, but God only sees the white covering of Christ over us.

We do not agree. We believe that, through baptism, we are actually transformed. We are not just covered in Christ, but are rather made new creatures, in a state of grace, in a right relationship with God. This view has a ripple effect through many of our teachings, like mortal sin seperating us from God, and this matter of Justification, and more.

Perhaps the mods can start a thread on this. I fear we are getting into the debate thing, and I know the mods don't want that in this section. But I hope that helps, and thanks for listening to the mp3.

 

[cyberjosh]

We do not agree. We believe that, through baptism, we are actually transformed. We are not just covered in Christ, but are rather made new creatures, in a state of grace, in a right relationship with God. This view has a ripple effect through many of our teachings, like mortal sin seperating us from God, and this matter of Justification, and more.

In my mind that makes it even harder to believe in Purgatory, if you realize that Jesus does the transforming and cleansing in us already. But like you said we don't want to start a debate in here. I just had to comment on that though, because that's what immediately struck me when I read that.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Catholic Crusader]

We do not agree. We believe that, through baptism, we are actually transformed. We are not just covered in Christ, but are rather made new creatures, in a state of grace, in a right relationship with God. This view has a ripple effect through many of our teachings, like mortal sin seperating us from God, and this matter of Justification, and more.

In my mind that makes it even harder to believe in Purgatory, if you realize that Jesus does the transforming and cleansing in us already. But like you said we don't want to start a debate in here. I just had to comment on that though, because that's what immediately struck me when I read that. God Bless, ~Josh

Well, what I said does not change what I think we all believe, which is that sin has a temporal effect - cetain hardships we suffer as a result of doing wrong. That is part (not all, but part) of Purgatory, which is not being able to escape what we have coming to us. As an extreme example, lets say you murder someone and repent. God will forgive you but you will still suffer the temporal effects of that sin - grief, jailtime, whatever. Now, lets say you murder someone, repent, then immediately die. (LOL. Like I said, this is an extreme example). God's justice demands that you still pay that price which your sudden demise allowed you to weasel out of.

Enter "Purgatory". You are saved, but you are not yet perfect and can not yet enter the heaven which scripture say "nothing unclean" can enter.

Now you must pay for this lofty wisdom I have imparted to you. Download the mp3 and listen to it. (And I'll tell Vic its your fault we are talking about Purgatory here. LOL)

 

[Vic C.]

I thought purgatory was wherever you worked... or went to school. :-D

 

[Catholic Crusader]

I thought purgatory was wherever you worked... or went to school. :-D

I think you may be on to something there :D