Debate, but in Charity

[Veritas]

We do not agree. We believe that, through baptism, we are actually transformed. We are not just covered in Christ, but are rather made new creatures, in a state of grace, in a right relationship with God. This view has a ripple effect through many of our teachings, like mortal sin seperating us from God, and this matter of Justification, and more.

Oh, so after the transformation would you say we start reverting back when we sin? I'm just trying to understand how you think of it.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

We do not agree. We believe that, through baptism, we are actually transformed. We are not just covered in Christ, but are rather made new creatures, in a state of grace, in a right relationship with God. This view has a ripple effect through many of our teachings, like mortal sin seperating us from God, and this matter of Justification, and more.

Oh, so after the transformation would you say we start reverting back when we sin? I'm just trying to understand how you think of it.

We believe that mortal sin severs our right relationship with God. To restore it, we must be "reconcilled" with God again. Go to this thread regarding that matter:
viewtopic.php?p=377596#p377596

Consider Adam and Eve: They were created in a state of grace, sinless, and all this a free undeserved gift from God. But through mortal sin (sin unto spititual death) they severed their relationship with God, and the race fell. It is no different now. Yes, Jesus paid the price we can never pay, and his blood did the work which the blood of a million lambs and bulls could never do, but we still have the capability of severing our relationship with God through willful disobedience.

God's grace is a free undeserved gift. But like any gift, you can throw it away. You could adopt a child and he would be legally your child. But when he grew up, he might just up and runaway. So, too, we can become adopted sons of the Father, but nothing says you cannot sever that relationship in the future.

Now, there is a thread in the Catholic forum on salvation here: viewtopic.php?f=53&t=29464

That might be a place to continue on.

 

[francisdesales]

In my mind that makes it even harder to believe in Purgatory, if you realize that Jesus does the transforming and cleansing in us already.

But it is not completed here...

We continue to sin, to choose to disobey God, even if it is much less often.

Regards

 

[Catholic Crusader]

So is Veritas the only person who listened to the mp3 ?

 

[Catholic Crusader]

There have been some problems in this forum with debates turning into insults, and I share in the blame, for which I apologize to any I have offended. As a great example of how Christians from very different perspectives can discuss their diffences in a charitable way, I'd like to make a suggestion, and I hope everyone reading this will indulge me. Here is a link to an mp3:

http://www.bringyou.to/ScottHahnBAM1990.mp3

This is an episode of the "Bible Answer Man", a protestant radio show. The guest is Dr Scott Hahn, a former Presbyterian who is now a Catholic and Professor of Scripture and Theology at Franciscan University of Steubenville, Ohio. Not only is this a great example of how Christians can share their beliefs in a charitable manner, but it expounds on two often discussed issues giving good viewpoints for each side:

1) At the 10 min 40 sec mark, the topic of Salvation is discussed with an emphasis on Justification
2) At the 8 minute mark the issue of the inerrency of Scripture is touched on.

And there is more. The whole mp3 is worth listening to. I hope you guys will find the time to do so. Perhaps it will also help inform some of the discussions going on in other threads.

What in the world was I thinking. I must have been off my rocker.

 

[Rick W]

Deleted two posts.


Reminder:
There will be no debate of Catholic issues outside the RC forum. Yes, it's locked so bite your tongues until sunday night.
Please.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Did anyone else ever listen to the mp3 ?
http://www.bringyou.to/ScottHahnBAM1990.mp3

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Did anyone else ever listen to the mp3 ?
http://www.bringyou.to/ScottHahnBAM1990.mp3

A bump up, for the sake of all the new members

 

[lovely]

Hi Catholic Crusader,

I listened to the link. The men I heard were not debating so much as clarifying their positions...especially the Catholic position, so that a true understanding of what they believe is conveyed to evangelicals. I applaud the effort. I know that people choose to perceive the beliefs of others the way they want, rather than what those people are actually saying. We distort just like satan does if we think it will help us win. Sometimes we do it without even knowing that we are because we are blindly clinging to something other than Jesus. sigh. I suppose all people do this no matter what the disagreement is. I have been guilty of it very often in motive and action, and I notice I do it with my husband when I really think I am right about something, not even considering that God will lead us through him, I just choose to ingnore that truth during those times. :

When my children argue it frustrates me as a mother to watch them NOT listen to one another, or feel compassion toward one another. They want to think badly of each other because they are angry and self-centered. I think, "This is your brother, you know this guy is upstanding and cares about you...where is your mind right now?" Sometimes only correction from me will restore harmony and get them to stop and think...and reflect on their own motives and actions in the situation.

Truth can only be uncovered in a discussion if we are willing to truly listen and understand one another's view. When I tell my children to do something, I always make them repeat the instructions back to me so that they are protected from misunderstanding me, and I am able to hold them accountable for what they actually know. I don' think as a child, and they don't think as a mother. It brings peace and sincere repentance when things are clear, or at least when all involved desire for them to be clear.

I guess we have to ask ourselves, "Do I want to win some vain dispute? Or, do I want to solve the problem of error in my brother, and possibly have my own revealed?" Wow, we should praise God when our own error is revealed! I'm afraid, I can not hear the Truth and have mine revealed most of the time. Anyway, we may still leave off the discussion in disagreement, being convinced truly in our own minds, but Jesus' love has abounded from one to another, we been sharpened...even if it's just a more firm understanding of our own position, and we have planted seeds of love and Truth in someone else who may be in serious error. And, most importantly the light of God has shown through our brotherly love...which John says is evidence of Him in us. I am not sure this is debate, though, maybe it's more of a family gathering together for a discussion about their disagreements?

Anyway, I would like to add that I realize there are times when rebuke is needed. If we are truly submitting to one another in Jesus, we can hear and receive rebuke (if we desire to be led by truth). And, if we must give rebuke, it will be stern and honest because we hate sin as God does, but it will also be humble and tender because we love our brothers and sisters in Christ. The Lord bless all of you today.

P.S. Drew mentioned the tone of this board last year, and I would like to apologize for my contribution to those problems during that time.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

P.S. Drew mentioned the tone of this board last year, and I would like to apologize for my contribution to those problems during that time.

I find it hard to believe that you had anything to do with that. You are one of the most polite people here. Thanks for listening to the link.

 

[lovely]

CC,

I did contribute, and just wanted to confess it and apologize openly to the mods and members.

Thanks for thinking the best of me, though, but keep in mind motive is important too...and I know that not every one of my posts have been polite. (No examples please) :

Polite words do not always equal truth, respect, and love...in fact, they may even be deceptive to others as well as the one saying them. "Look how polite I tried to be, and this person was still upset with me." Why, because I wasn't truly hearing them or even trying to, but plowing ahead with my own opinions (politely, of course)...that is the characteristic of a FOOL with good manners! I want to be given over to the Truth, but sometimes I really just want to be right. I hate that in myself, and God can not use a vessel that desires to glorify itself. Remember, I did that just the other day being preachy with you in the Bible Study forum because I wanted you to hear me...me, not Jesus. sigh. If I am truly saying something right, then I want it to be because God's Truth is being spoken through me not because I have a good opinion, or idea, or I feel self-centered enough to think that the one thing I say will make a difference. It has to be the Holy Spirit in me, and I'm sure no one disagrees with this. I am not saying we check our minds at the door, but rather that we enter in with the mind of Christ.

And, sometimes I get very zealous because of my emotion toward the topic. I am not self-controlled like I should be. My only defense on that one is I do get concerned about others being in error, and also I am just a girl and very feminine in my responses sometimes...to the point of not being able to even communicate very well.

I am sure there are people here who have had enough debates with me on the opposing side to be an honest witnesses of my self-centered stubborn-ness...polite as it may have been. God has worked on me, and rebuked me, and I feel I am more mindful of it now...desiring to respect others sincerely while not compromising my own beliefs. I know I won't be perfect, though, but at the very least I can apologize and try harder. Maybe part of it is just staying on point...which is hard for me at times. The Lord bless you.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

okay

 

[Hezekiah]

There have been some problems in this forum with debates turning into insults, and I share in the blame, for which I apologize to any I have offended. As a great example of how Christians from very different perspectives can discuss their diffences in a charitable way, I'd like to make a suggestion, and I hope everyone reading this will indulge me. Here is a link to an mp3:

http://www.bringyou.to/ScottHahnBAM1990.mp3

Thanks for the link. I shall listen to it shortly.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Thanks for the link. I shall listen to it shortly.

Cool. And as I said in the OP:

....This is an episode of the "Bible Answer Man", a protestant radio show. The guest is Dr Scott Hahn, a former Presbyterian who is now a Catholic and Professor of Scripture and Theology at Franciscan University of Steubenville, Ohio. Not only is this a great example of how Christians can share their beliefs in a charitable manner, but it expounds on two often discussed issues giving good viewpoints for each side:

1) At the 10 min 40 sec mark, the topic of Salvation is discussed with an emphasis on Justification
2) At the 8 minute mark the issue of the inerrency of Scripture is touched on.

And there is more. The whole mp3 is worth listening to......