Deifying Jesus

[Klee shay]

Did he ask mankind to? And does this interfere with God's declaration that there is only one God?

I realise this treads close to the Jesus is God doctrine, but for the sake of this discussion I would like to refrain from using this doctrine. I understand if it comes up but I don't want it to override the main question I am asking. Did Jesus ask mankind to deify him?

Thanks.

 

[Imagican]

Klee,

Nice question and one that I believe is 'crucial' in the 'true' worship of Christ.

I would like to start with the offerings of Christ Himself concerning this issue.

Firstly: Christ states without misunderstanding that His power was given to Him.

He plainly states that what He did and said were NOT His will, but anothers'.

He refers to Himself AS the Son of Man, also. Understanding this is crucial to an understanding of His diety and what place it holds.

This is a 'good enough' start I believe. Let us explore the meanings and understanding that these points offer and then persue the matter to a deeper degree.

I am sure that Christ recognized the 'importance' of WHO He was/IS. This is without doubt. But, i believe your point is whether or not His claims or actions signify deity and to 'what extent'.

When we consider the statements of Christ Himself on the points listed above, I believe that it is perfectly clear that Christ credits His power and words to 'something' other than Himself. These are His WORDS, NOT mine.

One more thing to add to my post. When aproached and called, 'Good Master', we have Christ's reply. Now, I have heard it explained in many different ways, what His answer meant. Let us discuss the 'actual' meaning behind His statement and if we can come to a mutual and inspired agreement upon this meaning, perhaps it will shed a bit more light on the subject at hand.

 

[Klee shay]

Thanks for the reply Imagican.

I thought worshipping God is what Jesus came here to teach us to do properly in the first place too. So I would have to agree with you in Jesus pointing towards God in his ministry, rather than himself. Having said that however, another scripture just came to mind about God being a Spirit and Jesus saying He sort those who would worship Him in Spirit. Is "deity" then a man-made concept to appease the flesh?

Are we even meant to deify God outside of respecting his love, truth and doing his will as Jesus did? Did Jesus "deify" God in the flesh or did he demonstrate a relationship based on love instead - putting God's will first?

Not deifying God, should in no way deminish the scriptures or the importance of God being central in our lives. So please don't worry that my questioning is straying from what Jesus set in stone as truth. I still hold every word Jesus spoke as true and the direct will of God. But as Jesus taught with such authority knowing the things of the spirit; have we as creatures of the flesh interpreted that as absolute power - molding our understanding of God from that cast?

I fully welcome everyone's input on these matters - whether they agree or disagree. Scriptural references are welcome too. I'm not interested in being right more than I am interested in exploring our relationship with God. Perhaps if we can remove the veil of "deity" we can see a direct relationship available between a creator and his creations?

(NOTE: 'Direct' meaning through Jesus that is. :D )

 

[Imagican]

Klee,

Interesting position. Would God not desire for us to be HIS CHILDREN. And as such, once we understand the 'rules': LOVE, wouldn't he accept us as, not equals, but heirs, and therefore allow us a relationship offered out of LOVE rather than 'strict obedience'. And if this is true, I understand exactly what you have offered as far as the elimination of 'deity' in favor of the loving relationship of a Father with His children. Intersesting my friend and maybe of emense import concerning 'our' relationship.

Thanks for this offering of a 'possible' perspective that goes 'beyond' that taught by the churches.

MEC

 

[Georges]

Worship God......Honor Christ as the Son of God....

 

[Klee shay]

Would God not desire for us to be HIS CHILDREN. And as such, once we understand the 'rules': LOVE, wouldn't he accept us as, not equals, but heirs, and therefore allow us a relationship offered out of LOVE rather than 'strict obedience'.

Yes, if we are to learn anything from Jesus being the 'Son' of God and representative of his Father's perfect will...then love would have to be the pinnacle message here. Not love for love's sake, but love that is perfect enough to overcome hate; disease and even death.

That Jesus would instruct us to call the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob - Father; is a subtly that turns a "God" into a "Parent". It is interesting just to think and ponder how that changes the relationship somewhat. After all, what would a child do for the acceptance and love of their parent...and what would a parent do to show them how proud they are to be called Father by their child?

When love is the pivotal motivation God becomes the creator and sustainer of life - a parent, no? :wink:

Thanks again for sharing Imagican.

 

[Klee shay]

Worship God......Honor Christ as the Son of God....

Hi Georges. :D

I think we agree. If I may ask however, what do you feel "worship" God means to you or what do you feel the scriptures describe as worship? I know you respect the practices of Judaism - or the parts there of; so it would be interesting to hear what constitutes worshipping God to you.

I know there is a lot of misconceptions out there about the motivation behind obeying the Torah. Mostly that it's bondage. Maybe there are still those who teach it and practice it in bondage, but it wasn't meant to be done that way in the beginning was is? It was meant to be done in love, for God; rather than simply obedience. Or at least I get that impression from King David's example - a man after God's own heart. :wink:

I look forward to your contributions and thanks for jumping on board. :D

 

[Georges]

Worship God......Honor Christ as the Son of God....

Hi Georges. :D

I think we agree. If I may ask however, what do you feel "worship" God means to you or what do you feel the scriptures describe as worship? I know you respect the practices of Judaism - or the parts there of; so it would be interesting to hear what constitutes worshipping God to you.

I worship God the same as all of believing Christianity and Judaism worship (although I'm not a trinitarian, I worship God (Jehovah) as they do...It's just that I recognize that Jehovah is the Father and he alone reigns supreme. When I pray, I pray to Jehovah and I honor Jesus for what he has done for me. I think most Christians do that....it's just our perspectives of position and title are different.

I know there is a lot of misconceptions out there about the motivation behind obeying the Torah. Mostly that it's bondage.

Finally....someone who gets that...Klee as I've said before, you are one sharp cookie.

Maybe there are still those who teach it and practice it in bondage, but it wasn't meant to be done that way in the beginning was is?

Still isn't, Pure Torah is instruction, it's the "man made (rabbinic)" laws that made the Torah a burden.

It was meant to be done in love, for God; rather than simply obedience. Or at least I get that impression from King David's example - a man after God's own heart. :wink:

Bingo.....

I look forward to your contributions and thanks for jumping on board. :D

 

[Imagican]

Klee,

Good questions. What if what has been 'hit' on here SUMS up the entire relationship that has been attempted by God with His creation. That all the law and all the prophets have offered NOTHING other than the 'teachings' of what it takes for man to 'truly' BECOME the 'Children of God'. That because of the 'stiff necked' pride and selfishness of the creation, it took 'strict dicipline' but offered through LOVE and meant to ONLY be a 'teacher'. Once 'learned', the teacher to be put to rest and the 'relationship' to be 'perfectly' established THROUGH LOVE. What was once demanded through WORSHIP, now able to be achieved through LOVE.

You have offered an exellent point. We, created in the IMAGE of the Creator, would indeed be heirs to that which offered us LIFE to begin with. This being the case, God WOULD be the consumate FATHER, and therefore, US, His children INDEED. God NOT being some unobtainable CONCEPT of diety, but truly the Father able to develope a 'maternal' relationship with HIS CHILDREN. Not desiring to be a 'sterile' unaproachable deity, but instead, a LOVING Father MORE THAN willing to be contacted PERSONALLY by His Children.

Good stuff Klee and certainly worthy of an attempt at a 'greater understanding'. It's amazing the different approach that can be attained when aproached through an understanding of LOVE rather than mere obedience. And our example? Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

 

[Klee shay]

What if what has been 'hit' on here SUMS up the entire relationship that has been attempted by God with His creation. That all the law and all the prophets have offered NOTHING other than the 'teachings' of what it takes for man to 'truly' BECOME the 'Children of God'.

Very interesting Imagican. After all, what was offered in the tree of knowledge that separated us from God in the first place? Knowledge of good and evil. Then it would stand to reason as the creator of all things, our Father in Heaven would be responsible for teaching us about the 'rules' of possessing such knowledge.

This can be summed up in the ten commandments I guess - that we should not use our knowledge of good and evil to take God for granted or hurt anyone in our community via dishonesty, dishonour, stealing, lust, murdering or envy.

But then God had to use holy men to teach us these rules in the first place, as you said. A great place to start no-doubt; but it needed one final lesson which came via a human life longing for the love of God in Spirit. Henceforth Jesus came.

We seem to have missed the subtlties however - the simplicity that is love he showed us towards our Father in Heaven and towards one another; in favour of raising up a deity with absolute power that we must please.

I guess I'm coming to terms with how I've learned about God. Knowledge may be where we begin since Adam and Eve made that choice for everyone; but a relationship with God should be based more on trust than knowledge and how do you teach that?

Perhaps through human relationships. :wink:

A Father and his children...a husband and a wife...a mother and a father...widows and orphans...neighbours and strangers...

 

[Klee shay]

When I pray, I pray to Jehovah and I honor Jesus for what he has done for me. I think most Christians do that....it's just our perspectives of position and title are different.

You've raised a good point there. We all aim for the same thing but use different routes of understanding to achieve it.

Do we then follow the same understanding however? Not really. For different perspectives and positions brings different understanding; but it doesn't mean the aim of seeking God is any different. We all want to find him but maybe our reasons are different too.

It's comforting to know therefore that God doesn't change, LOL. Kind of makes it (a little) easier to find him. :wink:

 

[Imagican]

And that too Klee is a 'good point'. To further illustrate it, how about this: just as each of us has a distinct and separate relationship with each other, who's to say that we each can't have the same situation with the Father? Since each of us is a distinctly 'different' individual, wouldn't each of our relationships ALSO be different. For those out there with children, we have SEPARATE relationships with each of them. Wouldn't it HAVE to be the SAME way with us and God?

Contrary to the teachings of the churches, we ARE, EACH separate entities. Different through the experiences of our lives. But each able to form a relationship with God on a ONE ON ONE basis. That each of us IS different makes it necessary that our relationships with God EACH be differnt.

 

[Vic C.]

Contrary to the teachings of the churches, we ARE, EACH separate entities. Different through the experiences of our lives. But each able to form a relationship with God on a ONE ON ONE basis. That each of us IS different makes it necessary that our relationships with God EACH be differnt.

I'm not sure this is what Scripture really teaches. We are different parts of the SAME BODY is what Scripture teaches.

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Rom 12:4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
Rom 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

The Pharisees and Sadducees tried to be their own entity; it didn't work. Jesus rebuked them.

 

[Imagican]

Yes Vic, I don't believe that what I offered changes this. For each part IS a 'serarate part' of the 'same body'. NO, are not a collective of identical parts, but separate, individual yet integral parts of the 'whole'. The churches would have us believe that we MUST be a 'collective' with the 'same' exact mentality and purpose. WRONG. The gifts DIFFER just as the individuals differ one from another. There is a 'collective' type 'purpose' for the Body. But it takes the individual gifts and persons to 'make up, the body. The BODY does NOT make up the individuals.