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Den of Thieves!

Bonairos

Member
“It is written, My house shall be called a house of prayer, but you have made it a den of thieves†- Jesus -


Is this applicable in today’s church? If so, what could possibly turn His house of prayer into a den of thieves?

Is it simply conducting a for-profit business at church (i.e. coffee shops, bookstores, etc.)?

What about when a guest speaker comes in and they set up a book table in the back promoting their must have literature?

Would renting out church facilities for non church meetings do it?

What about exuberant salaries or lavish lifestyles of those who lead?

You tell me.

I thought of calling this thread ‘Marketing Jesus’ but it could be viewed as one in the same.



Be blessed, Stay blessed!

I posted this in the General Thread because I’m sure there can be debate on this one. But if the Mods choose to move it, no problem.
 
The awefull truth is that church itself is a for profit business. I believe that our Lord would want to have nothing to do with the church as a whole and feel no need to clean it because He would not view it as His. He would probably instead insist that churches remove His name and all references to Him and or else be charged with libel for linking His name with such mammon.
 
The people Jesus drove out of the temple were selling sacrifices and changing money. Both of these were legitimate activities and were, in fact, necessary for as many as possible to be able to celebrate the Passover. Jesus was not objecting to what they were doing, but where they were doing it. The temple was supposed to be set apart for a specific purpose, and to use it for personal gain was wrong.

The things you mention, such as book stores, coffee shops, etc. are obviously comperable to the selling of sacrifices - legitimate activities for a godly purpose, but also for personal gain. But there is one thing we must determin before answering your question about modern churches being "dens of thievs". Are today's churches comperable to the temple, or was the temple something unique and unrelated to todays church buildings.

If we see churches as serving the same purposes as the temple (worship), then selling books, CDs, DVDs and so on would be turning them into "dens of thievs". But, if we see them as being different, then different rules would apply. Selling Christian books is by no means wrong, and if churches are not set aside exclusively for worship, then such activities could be allowed.
 
The awefull truth is that church itself is a for profit business. I believe that our Lord would want to have nothing to do with the church as a whole and feel no need to clean it because He would not view it as His. He would probably instead insist that churches remove His name and all references to Him and or else be charged with libel for linking His name with such mammon.

why would you say that? I know for a fact that my church makes no profit, and all revenues/expenses are reported in the bulletin every quarter for all members to see.
 
“It is written, My house shall be called a house of prayer, but you have made it a den of thieves†- Jesus -


Is this applicable in today’s church? If so, what could possibly turn His house of prayer into a den of thieves?

Is it simply conducting a for-profit business at church (i.e. coffee shops, bookstores, etc.)?

What about when a guest speaker comes in and they set up a book table in the back promoting their must have literature?

Would renting out church facilities for non church meetings do it?

What about exuberant salaries or lavish lifestyles of those who lead?

You tell me.

I thought of calling this thread ‘Marketing Jesus’ but it could be viewed as one in the same.



Be blessed, Stay blessed!

I posted this in the General Thread because I’m sure there can be debate on this one. But if the Mods choose to move it, no problem.

I have been to churches where they sell their own pastors books out in the foyer, along with t-shirts or whatever else. I used to question this, but then I realized that the "house of prayer" Jesus is referring to were the Jewish temples, and that is exactly what they were "God's house", yet now it is not that way as we are the temple of God, so how could it apply now?
The church organizations today are supposed to be non-profit and maybe some are, but they are political and business oriented, and I do not believe that was God's intention for His Body. Just my 2 cents.
 
before answering your question about modern churches being "dens of thievs".

I hear you and know the biblical times/context in which Jesus was speaking. I didn't post this in a Bible Study thread because this isn't so much about being a study of this scripture but rather if, and how this could be applied today. (How practical is this?!)

Just for clarity I am not saying nor assuming that the modern church is being a den of thieves.

I simply asked, "Is this applicable in today’s church? If so, what could possibly turn His house of prayer into a den of thieves?"

I appreciate your response and going deeper (I like when questions are asked, it shows you are a good listener).

I just wanted to interject before this takes on a different direction and I'm misintepreted.

Good points tho.


be blessed, Stay blessed!
 
The awefull truth is that church itself is a for profit business. I believe that our Lord would want to have nothing to do with the church as a whole and feel no need to clean it because He would not view it as His. He would probably instead insist that churches remove His name and all references to Him and or else be charged with libel for linking His name with such mammon.
Amen to that brother.
 
Den of thieves = the whole of the word of faith crowd, and others

Some times i wish Jesus was strollen' around with His whip.


God says He looks on the heart and we know where your treasure is there may your heart be also.....

Bulking money from old ladys under the guise of spreading the gospel then use the money living a millionaires life.

yup den of thieves
 
If modern churches took bribes from the heathen to remain silent on issues, that could be considered thievery, right? They could be portrayed as stealing the truth from their flock for personal gain.

I'm not certain about all the details that went into the truth behind Jesus's statment that the money changers were turning his fathers' house into a den of theives. It happened after the first miracle of his public ministry at the wedding, where he turned the water into wine. Jesus was thinking about things in a different way than the religious leaders of his day did, obviously.

Moneychanging wasn't per se evil. Scripture provides for the poor who could not afford to offer the full requirement of the law and they who could not afford a lamb sacrifice, for instance, because they didn't have one were not left out.

"And if he be not able to bring a lamb, then he shall bring for his trespass, which he hath committed, two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, unto the LORD; one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering." - Leviticus 5:7 KJV

"And he shall offer the one of the turtledoves, or of the young pigeons, such as he can get;" - Leviticus 14:30 KJV

It was my thought that the money changers were charging for their service and profiting from the poverty of their brothers. I don't think I can prove that from Scripture though but it is something that I was taught. Anybody know for sure? Maybe it was the atmosphere that surrounded the pandering or offering shoddy merchandise and not the best from what was provided that provoked our Lord? Pretty sure it was a heart matter but I'm not familiar with the customs and life of the Jews at the time to say for certain.

But after Jesus began his public ministry and after he changed water into wine at the request of his mother at the wedding he went up to the temple and was consumed by the zeal of his father's house. When the Pharisees saw what he did they asked him, "What sign do you show us for what you've done?" "Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." - John 2:19 KJV

So he knew that his body was the real temple and the message that was found in him, the word that he would speak, was the very sacred word that had been given to him by his father, God. We are the earthen vessels (as Paul declares in 2Cor). If we allow God to fill us to the brim then take the time to serve others, as we share the word of God and serve one anohter - as married couples especially serve the water which is the word of God to each other, that water will be changed to the wine of Joy in the Spirit of God. The mysteries behind marriage symbolize more than two being joined into one, they reflect the truth seen at the tables. These things, the mystery of marriage, the wedding feast, the symbols that were made by the Ancient of Days were what comprised the beginning of the miracles of Jesus.

Jesus went to the temple and was distraught by what he saw. "Make not my father's house a house of merchandise." The zeal of the House of God had eaten him up. In the earlier part of the chapter, there at Cana, Jesus was working at those very same tables - nobody knew from wence the wine came - except the servants. The contrast between Joy and Judgment that is seen by the use of the tables in the space of that short time is part of the point here. Joy and Judgment often go hand in hand.

There are things in our temples and things in our lives that are ripping us off from the joy of the Lord. Paul said, "Be angry, yet sin not --don't let the sun go down on your wrath," and Jesus provided a perfect example for us. Jesus was in control, it wasn't a matter of losing his temper. It wasn't done from some long unexpressed grudge. The Bible says, "There is pleasure in sin for a season but after that comes destruction."

Jesus didn't do that on the spur of the moment (or while throwing a temper fit) but instead went out and made a scourge of small cords before returning and driving them out of the temple as can be seen in John's gospel.

"And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables; And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise. And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up." - John 2:14-17 KJV

Think about the tables. There at the marriage feast, water turned to wine at the tables. Later those same tables are used for unholy purpose... Where does that happen in our lives? In my life, it happens at communion. I can weep for joy when I think about the love that Jesus has for me. I am also convicted there too --when I am holding the elements of communion in my hand, where I find judgment and can confess, "Yes, Lord. I confess that I have examine myself, judged myself, and am forgiven for those things that I turn from."

These things compose the thoughts that occur in me when I consider the zeal that consumes, from the "house of God". I hear the words, "My son, despise not the chastening of the Lord." When Jesus drove out the moneychangers he made the scourge from small cords. He uses the small things and can allow them in us to overturn tables in our life.

"What right does He have to even use small cords and scourge me?" That's the response that the religious leaders had, "What sign do you show us?" is like saying, By what right? They didn't ask, "Why are you doing this?" but instead said, "Who gave you that kind of authority?" "Who are you to do such and correct US?" If we are not chastened when we are in sin then we are illegitimate (the King James Version uses the word bastard to drive home the point) that we must feel correction when we are sinning. Else we are not sons. He isn't wanting our tables to be a source of problems but rather a source of joy in us.

He said, "Make not MY father's house..." compare that to what he said three years later at the end of his ministry before he was crucified, "Behold! YOUR house is left unto you desolate." (Mt 23:28) It was no longer "my father's house" because they resented his ministry and refused to recieve the correction as sons.

This event took place at the Passover. Passover took place just before the feast of unleavened bread. Jews would search and scour their house to make sure there was no trace of sin (leaven is a type of sin). The shook out (or drove out) the leaven from their house. We see Jesus' body as the House of God, we see the temple as the House of God -we see so many things that are being fit together and that sight too by the working of the Holy Spirit who is jointly fitting us together so that we too can exist as a church (the Body of Christ) and worship God in spirit and truth. Not with store-bought glory and not with the sacrifice of our works but only by His Spirit as appointed from the beginning.
 
I hear you and know the biblical times/context in which Jesus was speaking. I didn't post this in a Bible Study thread because this isn't so much about being a study of this scripture but rather if, and how this could be applied today. (How practical is this?!)

Just for clarity I am not saying nor assuming that the modern church is being a den of thieves.

I simply asked, "Is this applicable in today’s church? If so, what could possibly turn His house of prayer into a den of thieves?"

I appreciate your response and going deeper (I like when questions are asked, it shows you are a good listener).

I just wanted to interject before this takes on a different direction and I'm misintepreted.

Good points tho.


be blessed, Stay blessed!

I would say that any activity that had making money as it's primary objective would qualify as a "den of thievs".
 
“It is written, My house shall be called a house of prayer, but you have made it a den of thieves†- Jesus -


Is this applicable in today’s church? If so, what could possibly turn His house of prayer into a den of thieves?

Is it simply conducting a for-profit business at church (i.e. coffee shops, bookstores, etc.)?

What about when a guest speaker comes in and they set up a book table in the back promoting their must have literature?

Would renting out church facilities for non church meetings do it?

What about exuberant salaries or lavish lifestyles of those who lead?

You tell me.

I thought of calling this thread ‘Marketing Jesus’ but it could be viewed as one in the same.



Be blessed, Stay blessed!

.

We have to stop and ask ourselves why was Jesus mad? See the idea is alot of times the animal that is being sacraficed at the temple was as close to the family as a pet. In losing the animal you seen as the pet you see the cost of sin. What they were doing now is taking that away, and using the temple as a place to make money. The animal you were offering meant nothing to you and then you overpaid for it and the church, the place of talking to god, became a corner store that was a mockery.

So then today is the church doing the same thing? With the sacrafice being taken away with the offering of Jesus we are not the same church. However we have to ask ourself the same question.. is this something that is there to bring people closer to god? Is this something to get more money out of people. The coffee shows are a good example. Some start as just a place for church people to meet and talk, free coffee. then it gets go big that the cost is a bit much. So then we charge 10 cents and it covers the coffee. Now then it grows and we want someone to work there and serve everyone. Cost goes up to cover the price of the coffee and employee. no harm here. Now we open a coffee shop for the only idea of say making as much money as we can. We charge more than we need to for the coffee and the shop runs a surplus. We use the money to give the pastor and church staff a bonus. I have a problem with this.

If the church is having money problems and it's a way to make ends meet that's one thing but to purge the most out of your people is another.
 
Den of thieves = the whole of the word of faith crowd, and others

Some times i wish Jesus was strollen' around with His whip.


God says He looks on the heart and we know where your treasure is there may your heart be also.....

Bulking money from old ladys under the guise of spreading the gospel then use the money living a millionaires life.

yup den of thieves


Amen Reba!
 
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