Bible Study Deuteronomy 22:5

[Tenchi]

Greetings, Tenchi.

I think you are interpreting a number of the passages you quoted improperly, but it would be a lot to explain. But let's at least start with 2 Corinthians 5:17. You are interpreting this to mean that a Christian - a true Christian, that is - would never have sin in their lives or they have not become truly born again, is that correct?

No, that's not what I wrote and it's not what I believe.

 

[Tenchi]

I just felt it is misleading to imply there is no such thing as a homosexual christian or a bipolar christian.

There are, obviously, many Christians who struggle with sin - homosexuality, or lying, or pride, or whatever - but they are not, in their spiritual identity in Christ, a Christian plus their sin. This is very clearly what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 6:11.

I'm a non practicing homosexual and mental illness is a part of my life. But I cannot expect these things to be completely gone as soon as I'm baptised, or as soon as I've finished studying the bible, or as soon as I've prayed a certain number of times etc. It is a work and requires effort. Effort to abstain from sinful desires. Gluttony, wrath and lust. (I have an eating disorder, I self harm/substance use and I'm homosexual) They won't disappear. Satan is always trying to tempt us away from God. It's a consistent effort to resist temptation and trust God aka have faith.

This is very sad. But, if you really are one of God's children, He'll lead you to a proper understanding of what it is to walk with Him even if you've got your fingers in your ears at the moment. He's very good at bringing us 'round to the truth - if we truly want it (and sometimes even when we don't).

I certainly can not speak for @Tenchi , but I think he might of meant not to label oneself as a homosexual Christian, but to say I am a Christian, but I am dealing with homosexuality or bi-polar or whatever struggle one is going through.

Yup. Exactly.

 

[Hidden In Him]

No, that's not what I wrote and it's not what I believe.

I understand what you are trying to say about labelling, but the following starts to run dangerously close to what I was asking about when you wrote the following:

When a Christian adds a sin-identifier to their title of Christian - homosexual Christian, drug-addicted Christian, ex-con Christian, etc. - they are lying to themselves about who they really are. "Old things are passed away," God says to us in His word, "behold, all things are become new." Spiritually, we are joint-heirs with Christ (Romans 8:17), seated with him in heavenly places (Ephesians 2:6), reconciled to, and at peace with, God (Colossians 1:13-22), made a child of God who can come boldly unto God's throne of grace (Romans 8:15; Hebrews 4:14-16; Hebrews 10:19-22). These and many other things are what are true of the born-again person in whom the Holy Spirit has come to dwell, not their old sin-centered, God-defying identity.

Again, I understand you here, but this is more of a theological construct, and to a new Christian this comes off like "you shouldn't admit that you are dealing with struggles in the area of homosexuality." It's like Faith theology applied to sin, advising she "profess and believe" to be something she may not actually be yet. I could address some of the other verses you used, but I don't want to turn this thread into a theological debate. I only wanted to say that rather than telling her to envision herself as delivered from her problems by terms of "identity," it might be better to simply encourage her that she can get delivered if she perseveres in seeking God with her whole heart. That's something she would better relate to, rather than placing her trust in mere terminology and what might prove to be an empty confession.

 

[Tenchi]

I understand what you are trying to say about labelling, but the following starts to run dangerously close to what I was asking about when you wrote the following:

When a Christian adds a sin-identifier to their title of Christian - homosexual Christian, drug-addicted Christian, ex-con Christian, etc. - they are lying to themselves about who they really are. "Old things are passed away," God says to us in His word, "behold, all things are become new." Spiritually, we are joint-heirs with Christ (Romans 8:17), seated with him in heavenly places (Ephesians 2:6), reconciled to, and at peace with, God (Colossians 1:13-22), made a child of God who can come boldly unto God's throne of grace (Romans 8:15; Hebrews 4:14-16; Hebrews 10:19-22). These and many other things are what are true of the born-again person in whom the Holy Spirit has come to dwell, not their old sin-centered, God-defying identity.

I don't agree. What I describe here is the truth of every born-again believer's identity in Jesus Christ. Only when a believer lives by faith in their spiritual identity in him will they ever enjoy properly the abundant life that he can give to them.

Again, I understand you here, but this is more of a theological construct,

No, it's not a "theological construct"; it's basic, normal Christianity. That you think it's a mere "theological construct" is extremely unfortunate; for as long as you think this way, you will never fully enjoy what is yours in your Savior.

and to a new Christian this comes off like "you shouldn't admit that you are dealing with struggles in the area of homosexuality."

I write as carefully as I'm able, trying to say exactly what I mean. And so, you will find nowhere in my remarks the statement, "You shouldn't admit that you're dealing with struggles in the area of homosexuality." Instead, what I urged was a settling, by faith, into the spiritual identity that PrimFinallyFoundGod! has as a born-again person. Too often, especially these days, Christians mix who they are in Christ with their sin, forming an identity that combines these opposites. But just as mixing a spoonful of mud into a glass of purified water doesn't clean the mud but fouls the water, so, too, mixing one's "new creature" identity with sin also fouls that identity and produces a correspondingly foul result. As I pointed out, "the me I see is the me I'll be."

It's like Faith theology applied to sin, advising she "profess and believe" to be something she may not actually be yet.

The only way any believer comes to experience the truth of who they are in Christ is by living by faith in that truth every day. Paul called this "reckoning it so" (Romans 6:11). The idea in "reckoning" is that of putting one's full weight on God's truth, trusting oneself to it and living daily in it. Practically, this would look like PrimFinallyFoundGod! refusing to describe herself as a homosexual Christian and/or a mentally-ill Christian but as a Christian who merely wrestles with these things. It has been a master-stroke of the devil to convince people to frame their identity according to their sin. So long as they do, they will remain conformed to that identity, which is why God in His word takes such pains to describe to His children who they really are in Christ.

I only wanted to say that rather than telling her to envision herself as delivered from her problems by terms of "identity,"

I didn't write this, though. Deliverance from sin is accomplished by more than standing by faith in who one is in Jesus Christ. But doing so, seeing oneself according to God's declaration of who one is in Christ, is definitely a vital part of being delivered from sin.

it might be better to simply encourage her that she can get delivered if she perseveres in seeking God with her whole heart.

Forgive me, but I'm going to be very frank with you: This is an entirely unhelpful Christian platitude you've written here. Over the thirty years I've discipled men, this thinking has done more to bind men in frustration, moral compromise and cynicism toward God than almost anything else. What does it mean to "seek God"? What is it to do so with a "whole heart"? How long must one seek Him? On what basis will she persevere? I will never offer such vague and ultimately empty "advice" to my brothers and sisters in the Lord. You shouldn't, either.

That's something she would better relate to, rather than placing her trust in mere terminology and what might prove to be an empty confession.

See above.

 

[Hidden In Him]

(Romans 6:11). The idea in "reckoning" is that of putting one's full weight on God's truth, trusting oneself to it and living daily in it.

Walking in a Biblical understanding of an issue is not the same thing as operating in "receiving by faith," positive thinking, or anything resembling it. The latter is a distortion, and there is no power in it. Change comes through the empowerment of the Holy Spirit Himself, not in the power of the mind.

God bless,
Hidden In Him

 

[Tenchi]

Walking in a Biblical understanding of an issue is not the same thing as operating in "receiving by faith," positive thinking, or anything resembling it. The latter is a distortion, and there is no power in it.

The apostle Paul was the one who commanded believers to "walk by faith, not by sight" (2 Corinthians 5:7) and "reckon it so" that they were "dead to sin but alive unto God through Christ Jesus" (Romans 6:11). What do you mean, then, that such living is a "distortion" and "without power"? Has Paul distorted the truth? Was he urging powerless Christian living?

Walking by faith is not the same as mere positive thinking. That you seem to think they are, essentially, is suggestive of your level of understanding of the basics of Christian living.

Change comes through the empowerment of the Holy Spirit Himself, not in the power of the mind.

God enjoins the believer repeatedly in His word to engage with His truth with their minds (Romans 7:25; Romans 8:6; Romans 12:2; 1 Corinthians 14:15, 19; Matthew 22:37; Philippians 2:2-5, etc.) And He has so formed us that, as we consider His truth with our minds, saturating our thinking with it, and trusting ourselves to it, that we are conformed to it in our living (2 Timothy 3:16-17; 1 Peter 2:2; Matthew 4:4, Colossians 3:10, etc.). The Holy Spirit is integrally involved in all of this, the fundamental "power source" of Christian living (Philippians 2:13; Ephesians 3:16; Romans 8:13, etc.), but he is not the sole basis of a believer's transformation.

 

[Hidden In Him]

That you seem to think they are essentially is suggestive of your level of understanding of the basics of Christian living.

You might want to watch with the insults. THAT is actually suggestive of spiritual immaturity, Tenchi.

 

[Tenchi]

I offered no insult, only an evaluation of knowledge and understanding. Nothing more.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I offered no insult, only an evaluation of knowledge and understanding. Nothing more.

Tenchi, the following are weak, simplistic go-to statements that reflect a mind that resorts to such things rather than responding with something requiring some thinking. Take a good look at this thread and the responses you've gotten from someone seeking Christ. You're not "leading them to water." They are instead repulsed, and if you stop to actually think about it for a minute, you may find the reason is because much of your spiritual "water" is actually a little tepid and uninspired.

My advice: I suggest, in a spirit of humility, that you evaluate yourself.

Well, it's not important that you agree with me. It is SUPER important, though, that you agree with God. This is why everything I wrote I supported with Scripture. And so, if you do disagree with me, you disagree also with God on whose truth I've grounded my comments.

That you seem to think they are, essentially, is suggestive of your level of understanding of the basics of Christian living.

 

[Tenchi]

Tenchi, the following are weak, simplistic go-to statements that reflect a mind that resorts to such things rather than responding with something requiring some thinking. Take a good look at this thread and the responses you've gotten from someone seeking Christ. You're not "leading them to water." They are instead repulsed, and if you stop to actually think about it for a minute, you may find the reason is because much of your spiritual "water" is actually a little tepid and uninspired.

I don't evaluate the truth and importance of what I've shared with someone on the basis of their response to it. Imagine if Christ had done this with, say, the Pharisees. Not a wise approach to take, I think.

As for my statements being "simplistic," "tepid," and "uninspired," I am unconcerned since I am before God, confident that I've spoken His truth clearly and directly. Additionally, you've yet to show that your description of my statements is accurate. As far as I can see, your dislike of my comments rests on misunderstanding them and on the poor response of the OP. But these bases for your dislike don't make my statements objectively as you've described them. Essentially, you've just offered your opinion of my remarks, which, of course, you're entirely at liberty to do even when that opinion has grown progressively...unpleasant.

In any case, please understand: I'm not going to adopt your view on my remarks. Your views are demonstrably in error, misrepresenting what I've written quite consistently, and not, as far as I can see, particularly biblically-accurate.

My advice: I suggest, in a spirit of humility, that you evaluate yourself.

Brother, please take your own advice.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I don't evaluate the truth and importance of what I've shared with someone on the basis of their response to it.

You should. The word is easily entreated when it is truly from above.

God bless,
- H

 

[PrimFinallyFoundGod!]

I am amazed. I was only asking about 1 bible verse. This is greatly blown out of proportion and Tenchi you could of simply stuck to the relevant verse. I don't understand why you have made this into about me and completely unrelated. My guess is you may of seen my personal posts. This is rather inappropriate to make my bible study personal. Especially given how I was asking about the meaning of said verse. I am not transgender or afflicted by gender dysphoria. This is not about me, your personal beliefs on the validity of mental illness or homosexuality. These are different and controversial topics that have 0 to do with the thread subject. I would say that Hidden In Him should perhaps ignore Tenchi now and not give them attention, as they've made it clear what their intentions are, they will continue to flood the thread with irrelevant beliefs that have nothing to do with Deuteronomy 22:5.
And Tenchi if you'd like to talk about this further I think you should make a thread specifically about these topics in theology. Respectfully I am going to keep you on ignore and move on now as I already received helpful relevant responses.