Devekut: Col.2.9 and Jn.1.1

[wavy]

Wavy,

To say human beings will partake in the divine nature and that Christ is the fullness of God in bodily form are two very different statements. One passage has human beings being offered a share in the divine nature of God, the other declares that God dwells fully in the flesh in the person of Christ Jesus.

I take it you reject the Gospel of John?

"In the Beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God"?

In regards to your answer, I must simply say you are reading too much into the text. The same word for 'divine nature' in 2Pet.1.4 is the same word used in Col.2.9. We share in the divine nature given by God, and Christ possesses it fully. Col.2.10 also says we are 'complete' (full, related to the word 'fullness' in v.9) in Christ, thereby we are in a sense divine sons, full of the divine nature (cf. Eph.3.19).

In regards to Jn.1.1, it is not a matter of 'rejection', but a matter of understanding. The second use of theos in Jn.1.1 is a predicate adjective, placed in the emphatic position preceding the logos. It literally reads, 'and God was the word', which describes the divine nature of what is being expressed in regards to the God (the first use of theos is used with the definite article).

 

[Toms777]

Something often mis-understood is that we are not sons of God in the same manner as Jesus, but that we are adopted as sons when we are saved.

Rom 8:15-17
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father." 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs--heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
NKJV

An adopted son never takes on the nature of the parents, but receives rights as heirs. By being partakers in the divine nature, it means that we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, not that we ourselves become divine.

 

[wavy]

Something often mis-understood is that we are not sons of God in the same manner as Jesus, but that we are adopted as sons when we are saved.

Rom 8:15-17...An adopted son never takes on the nature of the parents, but receives rights as heirs. By being partakers in the divine nature, it means that we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, not that we ourselves become divine.

This does not negate the fact that the same word is used for both Jesus and Christians. If it means one thing for one, it means the same for the other.

 

[cyberjosh]

This does not negate the fact that the same word is used for both Jesus and Christians. If it means one thing for one, it means the same for the other.

Sure it does, in context. In whom do we have our new birth? Jesus, who is God. And not only are we in Christ but in a very real sense our new man is Christ, as he works in us.

"To live is Christ and to die is gain" (Philippians 1:21).

"It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me" (Galatians 2:20).

To participate in the divine nature is to experience the eternal life of God working in us. And while we are in the bodily flesh that working accomplishes our sanctification as Christ lives in us. Christ is the divine nature of which we partake.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Devekut]

Christ is the divine nature of which we partake.

Excellent point Josh! Everything in God is offered to us through Christ. The problem with non-Trinitarians is that they have to isolate a few portions of scripture but ignore scripture as a whole. The way Christ is regarded in the New Testament is as one regards God alone. If Christ is not God we are all idolators and guilty of every accusation the Jews level against us as "pagans".

Wavy,

There is really no possible way one can deny the Divnity of Christ and still accept the Gospel of John as inspired, or most of scripture for that matter. It's interesting that you consider Christians to be forcing a Trinitarian paradigm onto scripture when the only way one can deny the Divinity of Christ is to dance around the texts in a complicated exegesis unheard of in Christianity for centuries.

What of John 8:58 where Christ says "Truly I tell you, before Abraham was, I am" ?

Everyone here is aware that God gives His name to Moses as "I am" or " I am what I am". If Christ is just a human being endowed with special rights and authority by God, how was he "before" Abraham. Why would Christ play on the name of God as if it were His Own?

"When I saw him [Christ], I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, ‘Fear not, I am the First and the Last’" (Rev. 1:17).

Thus says YHVH, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, YHVH of armies: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; besides me there is no god’" (Isaiah. 44:6; 41:4, 48:12).

 

[SpiritualSon]

Christ is the divine nature of which we partake.

Excellent point Josh! Everything in God is offered to us through Christ. The problem with non-Trinitarians is that they have to isolate a few portions of scripture but ignore scripture as a whole. The way Christ is regarded in the New Testament is as one regards God alone. If Christ is not God we are all idolators and guilty of every accusation the Jews level against us as "pagans".

Wavy,

There is really no possible way one can deny the Divnity of Christ and still accept the Gospel of John as inspired, or most of scripture for that matter. It's interesting that you consider Christians to be forcing a Trinitarian paradigm onto scripture when the only way one can deny the Divinity of Christ is to dance around the texts in a complicated exegesis unheard of in Christianity for centuries.

What of John 8:58 where Christ says "Truly I tell you, before Abraham was, I am" ?

Everyone here is aware that God gives His name to Moses as "I am" or " I am what I am". If Christ is just a human being endowed with special rights and authority by God, how was he "before" Abraham. Why would Christ play on the name of God as if it were His Own?

"When I saw him [Christ], I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, ‘Fear not, I am the First and the Last’" (Rev. 1:17).

Thus says YHVH, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, YHVH of armies: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; besides me there is no god’" (Isaiah. 44:6; 41:4, 48:12).

God the Creator coming down as the Divine Truth, which is the Holy Word, but without separating the Divine Good is evident from the Lord's conception, about which we read that 'the power of the Most High overshadowed Mary' (Luke 1:35). The 'power of the Most High' means the Divine Good. The same point can be established by the passages in which He says that the Father is in Him and He in the Father; that all things of the Father's are His; and that He and the Father are one, and many more. 'Father' means the Divine Good Soul of Jesus Christ.

Harry :fadein:

 

[wavy]

Sure it does, in context. In whom do we have our new birth? Jesus, who is God. And not only are we in Christ but in a very real sense our new man is Christ, as he works in us.

This is simply assuming your conclusion to prove the premise. You cannot say Col.2.9 is saying 'Jesus is God' and then base this upon the fact that, although the same word is used in 2Pet.1.4, we 'share' or receive the benefits from Jesus as 'God'. That's simply begging the question.

To participate in the divine nature is to experience the eternal life of God working in us.

And why does this not apply to Co.2.9? Because you have begged the question. Exactly.

And while we are in the bodily flesh that working accomplishes our sanctification as Christ lives in us. Christ is the divine nature of which we partake.

The 'fullness' of the divine nature was imparted to Christ by the Father:

Co.1.19 (NASB)
For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him

 

[wavy]

Excellent point Josh! Everything in God is offered to us through Christ. The problem with non-Trinitarians is that they have to isolate a few portions of scripture but ignore scripture as a whole.

The problem with trinitarians is that those collections of 'isolated passages' deny some of the major points in certain trinitarian doctrines.

The way Christ is regarded in the New Testament is as one regards God alone. If Christ is not God we are all idolators and guilty of every accusation the Jews level against us as "pagans".

It's not as simple as that.

There is really no possible way one can deny the Divnity of Christ and still accept the Gospel of John as inspired, or most of scripture for that matter. It's interesting that you consider Christians to be forcing a Trinitarian paradigm onto scripture when the only way one can deny the Divinity of Christ is to dance around the texts in a complicated exegesis unheard of in Christianity for centuries.

I'm not denying his divinity. That's not the issue here. The issue is contorting certain scripture passages (like Col.2.9) to conform to defined trinitarian orthodoxy, which can be imperious and absurd. The authors of the NT did not view God as trinitarians do. God was not an object of three subjects.

What of John 8:58 where Christ says "Truly I tell you, before Abraham was, I am" ?

Everyone here is aware that God gives His name to Moses as "I am" or " I am what I am". If Christ is just a human being endowed with special rights and authority by God, how was he "before" Abraham. Why would Christ play on the name of God as if it were His Own?

"When I saw him [Christ], I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, ‘Fear not, I am the First and the Last’" (Rev. 1:17).

Thus says YHVH, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, YHVH of armies: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; besides me there is no god’" (Isaiah. 44:6; 41:4, 48:12)

I've read the bible before. Quoting these scriptures has nothing to do with the point...

 

[wavy]

God the Creator coming down as the Divine Truth, which is the Holy Word, but without separating the Divine Good is evident from the Lord's conception, about which we read that 'the power of the Most High overshadowed Mary' (Luke 1:35). The 'power of the Most High' means the Divine Good. The same point can be established by the passages in which He says that the Father is in Him and He in the Father; that all things of the Father's are His; and that He and the Father are one, and many more. 'Father' means the Divine Good Soul of Jesus Christ.

Harry :fadein:

What?

 

[Devekut]

Sorry Wavy,

I was under the impression that you did not believe in the Divinity of Christ, or that if you did, you feel that He is a human being offered divinity and that all Christians are offered that same divine nature as Christ.

 

[SpiritualSon]

I haven't been here for sometime, and I use to post the writings of Swedenborg. I see that some here still hold on to same ideas taught from childhood, that God is in three persons or is it three persons in one God. Some here don't believe Jesus is God at all. Here is proof, Jesus said John 14:9,"He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father."

Swedenbog wrote that in order for a person with false ideas to enter heaven, they have to live by charity according to their religion. People are given an an opportunity to learn the truth from those who are wise in the next life, and they do so with joy and gladness. These same people whose ideas about God are false can be taught the truth if they had lived by repentance. I am more on the Catholic's side, because of the their beliefs in repentance, where as for the Protestants don't believe in repentance. They believe God will save them no matter how they live, because of Jesus death on the cross. Look to the Lord and shun evil because they are sins, and do good because good is from God, and are of God.

Harry :fadein: