Did Enoch die?

[Stan1953]

He doesn't, but he does have to be changed.
We will not all die, but we will all be changed. 1 Corinthians 15:51b ERV

Paul is just using his feeling of immanent return when he writes this statement. Basically the same sense John had when he wrote revelation. What Paul is stating is that those that are alive when Jesus does return, will of course not taste death, but will be changed along with those that are dead in Christ.

 

[Michael74]

All those with faith in God must be changed, at some point.

 

[agua.]

I'm on the fence on this one Gary. I was thinking exactly like you are about it for awhile, then the rest of the Hebrews 11 scripture, as well as a sermon I heard which indicated that Enoch would likely be one of the two witnesses (and we know they will be killed and lay in the street for 3 days) both made me wonder about it. A little confused on this is Edward, lol.

Could it be that Hebrews 11:5 is talking about when Enoch was translated...they were after him right then to kill him, remember? (That he should not see death from those guys...) So God took him, and perhaps he will die later? Speculation on my part brother...

Hey Ed are you thinking of Elijah here maybe ? I don't remember anything said about Enoch being translated because he was being pursued and about to be killed maybe I'm wrong.

It's def an interesting thing that happened to Enoch.

 

[Edward]

Hey Ed are you thinking of Elijah here maybe ? I don't remember anything said about Enoch being translated because he was being pursued and about to be killed maybe I'm wrong.

It's def an interesting thing that happened to Enoch.

No, i'm thinking of Enoch. they didn't get close or anything but someone didn't like him. I may have read it in the book of Enoch, I'm not sure. I'll check around and see if I can find where i read that.

 

[agua.]

No, i'm thinking of Enoch. they didn't get close or anything but someone didn't like him. I may have read it in the book of Enoch, I'm not sure. I'll check around and see if I can find where i read that.

Ah ok could be mate. Let me know the details if it's in the Book of Enoch I'm curious because the Bible tells us so little about him and he must have been a great man of God.

 

[Kevin]

Just thought I'd pop back in and hopefully settle this question.

First- the two witness are Moses and Elijah. The plagues that the witnesses have power to do are the same plagues Moses and Elijah did in the OT (no rain, water to blood,etc.) Rev.11:6. Only Moses and Elijah went without food forty days (besides Jesus) and then met with God on Sinai. It was Moses and Elijah who appeared glowing on the mount with Christ.

Enoch died; Hebrews 11 speaks of Abraham, Noah, Enoch, etc. and says "these all died in faith" (Heb.11:13). So obviously the fact that Enoch "should not see death" doesn't mean that he didn't die, but rather that he was probably translated directly into death without going through the process of dying.
The Bible says that "Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him." (Gen.5:24). Saying that he "was not" is Bible language for "dead."

When Jacob thought Joseph was dead he said, "The child is not; and I, whither shall I go?" (Gen.37:30)

When Joseph's brothers said he was dead they said, "We be twelve brethren, sons of our father; one is not," (Gen.42:32)

 

[Stan1953]

Just thought I'd pop back in and hopefully settle this question.

First- the two witness are Moses and Elijah. The plagues that the witnesses have power to do are the same plagues Moses and Elijah did in the OT (no rain, water to blood,etc.) Rev.11:6. Only Moses and Elijah went without food forty days (besides Jesus) and then met with God on Sinai. It was Moses and Elijah who appeared glowing on the mount with Christ.

Enoch died; Hebrews 11 speaks of Abraham, Noah, Enoch, etc. and says "these all died in faith" (Heb.11:13). So obviously the fact that Enoch "should not see death" doesn't mean that he didn't die, but rather that he was probably translated directly into death without going through the process of dying.
The Bible says that "Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him." (Gen.5:24). Saying that he "was not" is Bible language for "dead."

When Jacob thought Joseph was dead he said, "The child is not; and I, whither shall I go?" (Gen.37:30)

When Joseph's brothers said he was dead they said, "We be twelve brethren, sons of our father; one is not," (Gen.42:32)

I think you are confusing the transfiguration in the gospels, with the two witnesses in Revelation. They are not the same.
Moses and Elijah were representative of the Law and the Prophets and Jesus was the fulfillment of both. Nothing to do with the two witnesses in Revelation.
Heb 11:5 (NET) very clearly shows Enoch did not die. v13 refers to all those spoken about from v8 onwards.

 

[Gary]

I think you are confusing the transfiguration in the gospels, with the two witnesses in Revelation. They are not the same.
Moses and Elijah were representative of the Law and the Prophets and Jesus was the fulfillment of both. Nothing to do with the two witnesses in Revelation.
Heb 11:5 (NET) very clearly shows Enoch did not die. v13 refers to all those spoken about from v8 onwards.

 

[agua.]

Just thought I'd pop back in and hopefully settle this question.

First- the two witness are Moses and Elijah. The plagues that the witnesses have power to do are the same plagues Moses and Elijah did in the OT (no rain, water to blood,etc.) Rev.11:6. Only Moses and Elijah went without food forty days (besides Jesus) and then met with God on Sinai. It was Moses and Elijah who appeared glowing on the mount with Christ.

Enoch died; Hebrews 11 speaks of Abraham, Noah, Enoch, etc. and says "these all died in faith" (Heb.11:13). So obviously the fact that Enoch "should not see death" doesn't mean that he didn't die, but rather that he was probably translated directly into death without going through the process of dying.
The Bible says that "Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him." (Gen.5:24). Saying that he "was not" is Bible language for "dead."

When Jacob thought Joseph was dead he said, "The child is not; and I, whither shall I go?" (Gen.37:30)

When Joseph's brothers said he was dead they said, "We be twelve brethren, sons of our father; one is not," (Gen.42:32)

Interesting Kevin. I like your idea about translation and the comparison between "he was not" and death. How do you link the 40 days fasting of Moses and Elijah with the 2 witnesses ?

 

[Kevin]

I think you are confusing the transfiguration in the gospels, with the two witnesses in Revelation. They are not the same.
Moses and Elijah were representative of the Law and the Prophets and Jesus was the fulfillment of both. Nothing to do with the two witnesses in Revelation.
Heb 11:5 (NET) very clearly shows Enoch did not die. v13 refers to all those spoken about from v8 onwards.

Sorry if I was not more clear. I mentioned Moses and Elijah's 40 day fast, their talking with God on mount Sinai, and their appearance with Christ to show that they are unique among men and that the two witnesses could be no one else. Just the fact that they appear together to discuss with Jesus his upcoming death (Luke 9:31) show them receiving an incredible honor. Not only were their lives unique but their ends were also unique. Elijah was taken up in a whirlwind, and God seems to have shut off Moses and hid his body.

Deut 34:5 ¶ So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
6 And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.
7 And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.

It leads one to assume that his body never decomposed; maybe that's why we read of Satan disputing with Michael about "the body of Moses" in Jude 1:9.

Also, you quoted the NET? Not to sound insulting but I think very little of the conflicting modern bible versions. I use the one that has stood the test of time.

 

[Gary]

Also, you quoted the NET? Not to sound insulting but I think very little of the conflicting modern bible versions. I use the one that has stood the test of time.

Hebrews 11 (NET)
5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he did not see death, and he was not to be found because God took him up. For before his removal he had been commended as having pleased God.

Hebrews 11 (KJV)
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.


I see no conflict here. Except for a couple word changes, the message is identical.

It leads one to assume that his body never decomposed; maybe that's why we read of Satan disputing with Michael about "the body of Moses" in Jude 1:9.

Deuteronomy 34
5 So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord.
6 And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.
7 And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.


I just read this passage over several times and I fail to see anything that would lead someone to believe Moses' body never decomposed. What would be the point?
.

 

[Stan1953]

Sorry if I was not more clear. I mentioned Moses and Elijah's 40 day fast, their talking with God on mount Sinai, and their appearance with Christ to show that they are unique among men and that the two witnesses could be no one else. Just the fact that they appear together to discuss with Jesus his upcoming death (Luke 9:31) show them receiving an incredible honor. Not only were their lives unique but their ends were also unique. Elijah was taken up in a whirlwind, and God seems to have shut off Moses and hid his body.
Deut 34:5 ¶ So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
6 And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.
7 And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.
It leads one to assume that his body never decomposed; maybe that's why we read of Satan disputing with Michael about "the body of Moses" in Jude 1:9.
Also, you quoted the NET? Not to sound insulting but I think very little of the conflicting modern bible versions. I use the one that has stood the test of time.

I understood your POV, it's just a common misconception. Moses died, so in order for Heb 9:27 to be true, the two that did not die in the OT, have to, and that is Enoch and Elijah.
You are more than welcome to your preferred English translation, as long as you are aware of it's fault's and error's. I fail to understand why anyone would not want to get the most relevant English version they can? No offense intended.

 

[Michael74]

Moses did die, but Michael contended for his body for some reason. Something unusual was going on with Moses.

But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses... Jude 1:9a NIV

 

[Stan1953]

Moses did die, but Michael contended for his body for some reason. Something unusual was going on with Moses.
But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses... Jude 1:9a NIV

Well if we had or accepted the Assumption of Moses as a canonical book or even a relevant work, we could pursue that, but we don't and the point for this thread is that Moses died.

 

[Sinthesis]

After Moses died, Satan desired to have the Israelites venerate Moses' body or grave as a back door to idolatry. Michael politely intervened.

 

[Stan1953]

After Moses died, Satan desired to have the Israelites venerate Moses' body or grave as a back door to idolatry. Michael politely intervened.

Thanks...that makes sense. Obviously Satan doesn't know a lot does he?

 

[Sinthesis]

Thanks...that makes sense. Obviously Satan doesn't know a lot does he?

I'd say Satan knows what works when you consider how popular ancestor worship was/is.

 

[Stan1953]

I'd say Satan knows what works when you consider how popular ancestor worship was/is.

Very true. He does indeed know man's weaknesses.