Did God create time?

[lovely]

I think this question is pretty basic, but I know that there are some who do not agree with me on this. I asked my son this question, and his response was that the Bible says nothing can be here without God. I thought it was interesting.

Is time something that exists outside of God? Did God create it? If God did not create it, can you provide Biblical support? If God did create it, is He subject to it? Please support your answer.

I think time was created, and I will give the first verse I think that says that.

In the beginning God created. Genesis 1:1 This says that the beginning began with Creation. I believe time, space, and matter were all created in this verse, and that God (who was before creation) did the creating of them.

I believe that time was created, and that God is not subject to it since He was before it according to this first Scripture. If God is not subject to time, then knowledge of the future exhaustively, is nothing to Him. So, when David writes poetry praising God, and His attributes, and says that all of his days were ordered prior to even being formed in the womb, I think we can assume he is being truthful in depicting God's all-knowing power. I think David understood Genesis 1:1, and knew that God created time, and was not subject to it.

 

[KaerbEmEvig]

Time? First ask yourself what time is. According to Quantum Mechanics, time is the proccess of irreversible actions (here comes Many-World Interpretation theory) which cause world to divide inbetween each of the possible outcomes.

Since matter is in God, time is also in God.

 

[lovely]

Karerb wrote:

Time? First ask yourself what time is. According to Quantum Mechanics, time is the proccess of irreversible actions (here comes Many-World Interpretation theory) which cause world to divide inbetween each of the possible outcomes.

Since matter is in God, time is also in God.

Maybe that is a good definition as we understand it. Do you believe God exists in time, or only that time exists in God?

 

[TanNinety]

I think this question is pretty basic, but I know that there are some who do not agree with me on this. I asked my son this question, and his response was that the Bible says nothing can be here without God. I thought it was interesting.

The question is pretty basic yes but I don’t think the answer is just as basic as God created everything so God created time.

Let’s take distance. Does distance exist? How much sense does this statement “I live 100 miles†make to you? Not much really, but how about, “I live 100 miles away from lovelyâ€Â. This brings sense to the distance I am taking about. Space exists and distance is only talked about in relativity from point A to point B. So we know that distance doesn’t exist by itself but it is just a measurement we use to talk about point A in relativity with point B.

Time is similar to distance. It’s just a measurement. What is it measuring? What do you mean by a second?

Second: The second is a unit for time, and one of seven SI base units. It is defined as the duration of 9,192,631,770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium-133 atom at zero kelvins.

This time which is comprised of seconds that you are talking about doesn’t exist but only exists as a measurement of â€Âtransitions†of a radio active atom.

So if I say “one mississippi†in 1 second, it means the duration in which I say "one Mississippi", the radio active caesium-133 atom would have produced 9,192,631,770 periods of radiation. So we are only taking about it in relativity and not reality.

In the beginning God created. Genesis 1:1 This says that the beginning began with Creation. I believe time, space, and matter were all created in this verse, and that God (who was before creation) did the creating of them.

I agree in part with your statement. When nothing existed, then there is no change to be measured, hence no durational relativity to talk about and no time. So the possibility to measure time started at creation. Now why do you think the verse reads “in the beginning God created heavens and the earth†and not God created a beginning, if the beginning was the first creation of God? Time is a by-product of creation, not the creation itself. Proof? Well, you can find it right in Genesis 1st chapter

“God said let there be light .. And the evening and the morning were the first day .. And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters …And the evening and the morning were the second day .. And God called the dry [land] Earth; …And the evening and the morning were the third day.â€Â

How do you see God creating? In days. Why did He have to wait a day, if God was creating out of time?
And what sense does God rested on the 7th day make? If He is out of time He exists out of this 7th day. Then how does He rest?

You can clearly see from Genesis that each day of creation is talked about in “relative†duration from “the beginningâ€Â. If you are saying God is out of time and He created time then Genesis chapter 1 would be a very long chapter, because He has never ceased creating but He is busy creating Day 8, Day 9, Day 10, …eternity.

Time only enjoys its existence in the figment of man's imagination. In reality it is nothing but the measurement of changes, not much different from 5 pounds, 10 kilometers or 3 gallons.

 

[lovely]

I agree that time is a standard of measurement, and for that reason I think that day one was the beginning of time for man, but not for God. God is not in need of a time line, while man is...especially in terms of redemption.

Time, space, matter, all the laws of physical existence, and perhaps even energy seemed to be created on the first day. I think God used days so that man could measure events, and record history, but not because God was restricted by it in any form. Was that what you were saying, Tan? Perhaps I am not following you properly concerning God's creation.

What do you, or anyone following, make of the fourth day? God created the sun, moon, and stars for signs and seasons, and for days and years. For man's ability to measure the time that God created.

Tan, when you say it is a by product, do you mean that God did not intentionally put it in place, or do you just not like my term "creation" because it is not a tangible thing?

I am really still studying this, and am not sure about too much yet, but I have come to the conclusion that this universe began on day one, and so did time, and God is not subject to it as man is.

Psalm 90:1-2 This prayer of Moses seems to indicates that God existed prior to creation, and is outside of time, but time is in Him. I believe that is what Kaerb was suggesting. Kaerb, what do you think about the idea of future?

Anyway, thanks for the reponses so far. The Lord bless you all.

 

[TanNinety]

I agree that time is a standard of measurement, and for that reason I think that day one was the beginning of time for man, but not for God. God is not in need of a time line, while man is...especially in terms of redemption.

God bless you lovely. I pray that this brings understanding to both you and I as we discuss. I have bolded in the above quote about as to where you and I differ.

Let me rephrase myself in more understandable terms.

Did God create distance or did He create space?
Space is the reality of creation, distance is its measurement

Did God create time or did He create current dynamic events?
Current dynamic events are the reality of creation, time is its measurement.

Did God create red unicorns or did He create Tan’s imagination faculty?
Tan’s imagination faculty is the reality of creation; my thought process is the generator of these imaginary red unicorns.

See the difference? It is a sensitive idea, takes a lot of de-learning of what we got used to thinking. Time line exists as much as my imaginary red unicorns exist. Like I said, past exists as memory and future in plans. I am sure God’s memory is big enough to hold ALL of the current events that passed away and He is sovereign enough to carry out His big creation plans without a hitch.

Seriously try to ponder and answer these questions below:
If you are saying God exists out of time, God should be able to look at the past and future as you and I look at the present/current dynamic events. Can there be a past that exists without God then? The answer from your scenario is, NO. So do you think God is talking to Moses right now in the past because past exists as a reality? If not, how can Moses give the law to Israel if God is not talking to him in the past right about now? How long do you think God is going to allow the existence of this past because that would necessitate His existence in it so He can guide the creation into what we are experiencing now as current events continually. See the loop that God gets trapped into? Do you think Christ is still hanging on the cross if past is a reality?

Or do you think that time is like a book and God can turn to any page and chapter and look through it? In this analogy God is only looking at the page where He has opened it and cannot exist in the past chapters and future chapters at the same time but can only traverse through the pages as He wills.

See once we give life to this imaginary time line we enter into the imaginary world of science fiction. And that it really is, a fiction.

What do you, or anyone following, make of the fourth day? God created the sun, moon, and stars for signs and seasons, and for days and years. For man's ability to measure the time that God created.

What God created here is a reset button of time measurement. If God didn’t design the creation so, after 24 hours, it would be 25 hours and not 0 th hour of the next day. So the above only reveals the rotation of events and does not suggest the actual creation of time. Like you said it is just for the ability of man to measure time with respect to the rotation/revolution He designed it so. Well and for other aspects of heat/light as well which does not pertain to current discussion.

Tan, when you say it is a by product, do you mean that God did not intentionally put it in place

Was it God’s intention to create distances or was it His intention to create space? I think it was space on His creation list, but “distance†is just how we perceive space. So is the intention of distance necessary when creating space? I don’t think so. Similarly, the intention of time line is not required when creating a current dynamic world. Through time is how we perceive it.

Now if you can understand that, time line can only be spoken of relatively with present and present is all that exists in reality.

Do you think if the motion of sun and the universe causes time? In that case when God made the sun stand still(stopping earths rotation), did time freeze? As in did Joshua stand still without any motion, did the world stop dead in its tracks? Or did the measurement of time stand still and everyone was going about their business as normal?

 

[unred typo]

TanNinety wrote:Time only enjoys its existence in the figment of man's imagination. In reality it is nothing but the measurement of changes, not much different from 5 pounds, 10 kilometers or 3 gallons.

See once we give life to this imaginary time line we enter into the imaginary world of science fiction. And that it really is, a fiction.

It is better to seek after truth than tradition.

I agree with Tan here. I enjoy science fiction and blue unicorns as well as anyone but it’s time to put away childish things when considering scripture doctrine and the nature of God. While you can say these things are peripheral to salvation issues but how you perceive God’s knowledge of the future changes how you relate to him. Can you quote a scripture that unequivocally states that God knows all future events? Not counting those that say that he knows what he is going to do in the future? Not counting those that say that he knows the nature of man to do and act a certain way? Not counting those that say he will force a certain person to do his will for a certain purpose? I think some have read imaginary time-travel-worm-hole sci-fi into these verses. Amazing to realize that such far out ideas have become accepted tradition in the church by respected adults.

 

[lovely]

Okay, I like this thread. Tan, I am grasping what you are saying now. Thank you for taking the time to explain it so well. I am going to ponder this when I can draw a firm conclusion about what I believe. It is so interesting. I can not leap to agreement, because I do not know if I agree. I have to study time more.

I think ured, in his usual style (giggle), challenges me to reconcile God's Foreknowledge to this figment of my imagination, time. (if that is what it is) I think that I have to do exactly that, and that was the purpose of this thread, obviously. I want to see what people think about this, and how they reconcile it with God's foreknowledge, or if they think there is any relationship at all.

I have more questions concerning that, though. If time is a figment of our imagination, as Tan says, then how does it relate to God. And, are we bound to it as His creation and needing it for our own perceptions? Is He bound to it because He related to us through it? If we know that God can tell us of some specific, very detailed, events that will happen, but obviously haven't yet, then why is it He can not know all future events exhaustively? What is the restriction? I guess I am thinking it can not be time itself, because we have already allowed that God can know some events...if time were the problem, then He couldn't know any...this is off the top of my head. Any thoughts on why this part of His nature may be restricted, when all others seem not to be? Is my reasoning off, and how?
Anyone have a different view that Tan's that they are pretty sure about?


The Lord bless you both today, and others reading here.

 

[unred typo]

Lovely wrote:I have more questions concerning that, though. If time is a figment of our imagination, as Tan says, then how does it relate to God. And, are we bound to it as His creation and needing it for our own perceptions? Is He bound to it because He related to us through it? If we know that God can tell us of some specific, very detailed, events that will happen, but obviously haven't yet, then why is it He can not know all future events exhaustively? What is the restriction? I guess I am thinking it can not be time itself, because we have already allowed that God can know some events...if time were the problem, then He couldn't know any...this is off the top of my head. Any thoughts on why this part of His nature may be restricted, when all others seem not to be? Is my reasoning off, and how?


When you say, “if time were the problem though†do you mean that God is limited by time? You seem to treat Time and the Future as if it were somehow a tangible place or thing. Events of the future are really plans that have not happened yet. God has no problem telling us what he is going to do and how it will effect the ones directly involved. He knows how you will react 999,999 times out of a million because he’s tested us a million times more than that. David said he even tests us in our sleep to see how we will react. He knows our genes and what experiences we have been through and what sugar frosted cereal we ate for breakfast so he can predict pretty much any of our future moves before they are a problem for him to make allowances for. We don’t have to worry that God will somehow not be able to meet our need or correct us to his satisfaction. But he doesn’t really have predictions that are recorded about our individual lives unless we are kings and leaders of some of these prophetic nations.

The problem I see is that Calvinists seem to think that if they can show how God controlled one person’s supposed free will actions, it is proof positive that he controls all person’s free will actions. They claim to believe in the sovereignty of God, but just let God try to step out of their box and they will, in no uncertain terms, tell us that he can’t do that. :roll: I’m not sure if this makes him laugh or cry.

 

[lovely]

Unred,

Let's pause for a second. I want to define terms, which I think helps us with understanding each other better.

Define free will please. I think when we speak of free will, we speak of it differently.

Unred wrote:

The problem I see is that Calvinists seem to think that if they can show how God controlled one person’s supposed free will actions, it is proof positive that he controls all person’s free will actions. They claim to believe in the sovereignty of God, but just let God try to step out of their box and they will, in no uncertain terms, tell us that he can’t do that. I’m not sure if this makes him laugh or cry.

I am not sure how I showed that God contolled anyone at all, or that I ever intended to show that anywhere. I do believe God is Sovereign, and for that reason I believe if either of us is in a box, it's me, not Him. I do want to get back to the concept of time later, but at this moment I need to get my thoughts back on the Word of God

The Lord bless you.

 

[TanNinety]

If time is a figment of our imagination, as Tan says, then how does it relate to God. And, are we bound to it as His creation and needing it for our own perceptions? Is He bound to it because He related to us through it?

Good questions. But the answers are simple. Am I in any danger of the red unicorns in my closet? Would I be a victim of a midnight stampede? Things that are imaginary, do not really set bounds on our reality. Time line is imaginary, it is not a limit. If I prayed to God to save me from the imaginary unicorns, does He have to do anything about it? So does God have to exhaustively foreknow things in the future that are imaginary?

Asking God to be able to travel through this imaginary time line both to and fro into future and past is like asking Him to save me from getting injured by the imaginary unicorns. It doesn’t make sense. It makes as much sense as asking God to make a circle with 4 corners and all 4 sides equal. By God’s design of this current real world, creating a circle with 4 corners is not possible. Similarly by God’s design traveling through time is not possible.

Could God have made a world in which time travel was possible and past and future existed as much as present and time wasn’t a figment of imagination? Absolutely. I do not question the creating power of God. What I question is did God make our current world that you and I currently live in, in such a way? The answer is no, He did not. The reason is obvious, does God want Jesus to hang on the cross in the past forever, if past is as much a reality as present?

God created a dynamic active world. He has His plans. He knows us because the psalm says He tests our heart. He is a discerner of the thoughts deep in our hearts. His Spirit goes to and fro and seeks those who love Him on earth. He wants to have as much of a relationship with us as we would Him. If we knew every move of God with exhaustive foreknowledge would we be able to have the same kind of relationship with Him? Be grateful of His deliverance if we exhaustively already knew about it? Doesn’t the same Heavenly Father want an open relationship? Hasn’t He grieved, been joyful, wrath filled, pleased? If exhaustive foreknowledge is true, how can we offer Him any of those moments He could regret or enjoy? He would be a God but would He really get to be a Father?

If we know that God can tell us of some specific, very detailed, events that will happen, but obviously haven't yet, then why is it He can not know all future events exhaustively?

I do not know the 7 th decimal value of PI. If at any point I had to use that in math calculations, would I be rendered helpless? Well I know PI can be equated to 22/7. Using division can I calculate it precisely? Of course. So how much more our God can He precisely calculate future events based on His memory of the past and who knows the heart of His creation? And when God prophecies/promises there is no doubt in His sovereignty He can make numerous plans to achieve His final goal.

 

[TanNinety]

Not sure if I can define free will, but free will action is easier to define.
Free Will Action: It is an action that is free from the exhaustive foreknowledge of God.

I have stated this example before. It is a thinker. Let us suppose God and me were walking down the streets of gold in the new earth!

Me: Daddy, can you create two pens that write different colors?
God: Here is a red one and here is a blue one.
Me: Well, I will just pick one up.(I tell myself, I will pick the opposite of what He tells me). You have foreknowledge tell me which one I pick up?
God: Red.
Me: (I pick up the blue one) Hah gotcha Daddy.

Now in the above scenario if God knew I was going to pick the blue one up according to the foreknowledge, He cannot lie and say red. And if He said I would pick up blue, in that case I would have picked red and I still would have got Him.

How can exhaustive foreknowledge solve the above scenario?

I can’t wait for the resurrection, I would try that on Him. He would probably ground me with no candies for a week. :-D

 

[unred typo]

Lovely wrote: Define free will please. I think when we speak of free will, we speak of it differently.

Free will to my understanding is the ability to choose to do or not to do God’s will, without being forced by an outside entity such as a demon or God. God can influence our decisions to do good just as Satan can tempt us to do wrong, but we are not forced against our will. The Bible says God will not allow us to be tempted above that we are able and will make a way of escape that we may be able to resist it. God wouldn't ask us to do that which we were unable to do any more than you would ask your child to fly to New Zealand to catch a kiwi bird for supper tonight or suffer torture on the rack.


Lovely wrote: I am not sure how I showed that God contolled anyone at all, or that I ever intended to show that anywhere. I do believe God is Sovereign, and for that reason I believe if either of us is in a box, it's me, not Him. I do want to get back to the concept of time later, but at this moment I need to get my thoughts back on the Word of God

The classic example is the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart. Calvinist’s generally take this one and thump on it to declare that God is the sovereign cause of all actions great and small, good and evil and that nothing but nothing happens outside of his providence. Maybe this is not your view. I apologize again. Now back to the future…..:wink:

 

[Muad'Dib]

I think this is one of those questions that's fun to speculate on, but beyond human understanding. God is above our understanding in most ways in fact. Did God create time or does even He exist within its restraints? I tend to think that God is above and outside of everything, even time. But I don't know for certain.

 

[lovely]

Hi Tan,

I am not convinced that time is imaginary at all. I understand your position, but I think there is a lot more to time than that. I do think it was created by God. Even if it is only a by product, as you said, of actual events, it is still a concept set forth on day one of the six days when all that was needed was created.

I am wondering about time, not just in the sense that we measure events...which I think can be viewed as a tapestry of sorts. God is the weaver, both outside of time, and inside of it. Certainly the weaver existed before, during, and after...and He is able to interact with it...weaving one thread, and another, and another, all directed by Him, and yet all affecting one another...until all threads glorify Him in completeness. I won't go into all the details that I think can apply here, but I do think that this is something real, not imaginary.

I read an article that set my head to pondering this... Adam, walked with God, and so God was both outside of time, and inside. Maybe Adam was outside too, in a sense (in his ability to be with eternal God), prior to the fall. Perhaps once Adam died, he was out of time, and in eternity where he was able to be with God again. It seems death is the crossover for man to eternity, and Christ is the Way to God.

I am not speaking of God time traveling, but time as man knows it, or as man doesn't know it, and how it relates to God's timelessness...or eternalness. I do not think that God is traveling back to the past, but I do believe that He was present there, as He is now, and that He will be in the future until there is none...till all pass into the eternal...all men. I think time is more than imaginary, and more than a measurement of events. Perhaps Christ became man, entering into time, and then back out again all the while remaining in eternalness. Both man, and God...both in time and out. I don't know...just thinking.

Certainly I am still thinking on this, but I reject imaginary...God put too much into this fundamental (law?) for it to be imaginary. It affects other things besides just events in history. I was looking up the definition of time at wikipedia...and came across this section.


Wikkipedia under time

Determinism
The 18th century saw many advances in the domain of science. After Newton, most scientists agreed on the presupposition that the universe is governed by (natural) laws that can be discovered and formalized by means of scientific observation and experiment. This position is known as determinism. However, while determinism was the fundamental presupposition of post-Newtonian physics, it quickly lead philosophers to a tremendous problem: if the universe, and thus the entire world is governed by natural law, then that means that human beings are also governed by natural law in their own actions. In other words, it means that there is no such thing as human freedom. If it is accepted that everything in the world is governed by natural law, then we must also accept that it is not possible for us to will our own actions as free individuals; rather, they must be determined by universal laws of nature. Conversely, if it is accepted that human beings do have free will, then we must accept that the world is not entirely governed by natural law. However, if the world is not entirely governed by natural law, then the task of science is rendered impossible: if the task of science is to discover and formalize the laws of nature, then what task is left for science if it has been decided that nature is not entirely governed by laws? Thus, there are extremely compelling reasons to want to accept both free will and determinism. However, the two seem totally irreconcilable.

I thought it was interesting...still thinking on all of this.

As far as the free will thing...Drew is thinking about starting a thread to define it. I would like to take that there, if you all don't mind. More tomorrow, I must go tonight.

 

[Featherbop]

Time is a concept devised by humans. It is not an absolute, something with independant existence.

 

[TanNinety]

Hi Lovely,

Take your time responding. We are not in a hurry. I would rather get this right than to reach a conclusion that is preconceived either from me or you.

I am not convinced that time is imaginary at all.

That’s good. Gives me more time and a challenge to hone my theory about it. Lets try to define how fast time is passing by if it indeed exists. Is it passing us by in days, hours, minutes or seconds? By the time I say “nowâ€Â, now has become past. So what do we have left to call present? Because present slips out of our hands at a blazing unstoppable speed of more than a fraction of a nano-second. How small of an interval do we need to go to say that fraction of time is now? Can we even define what we call now?

This was a theory about distances but I will try to apply it to time. For time to pass 1 second, it has to pass half a second first, but then it has to pass 1/4th of a second before it passes that half a second, and 1/8ths of a second before it is 1/4ths, and half of that before that, half of that before that, half of that before that …infinitum. So time takes infinite intervals to pass 1 second, meaning 1 second will never pass because infinite intervals make a long time. So if time existed we would all freeze.

I do think it(time) was created by God. Even if it is only a by product, as you said, of actual events

Ok lets do some comparative study. Did God create good and evil? Lets take the two answers and go deeper in thought.

1. Did God create good and evil? Yes. In that case He is out of the context of good and evil. We cannot say He is good because that will put Him in the subjection of something He created. But scriptures reveal that He is good. (He probably put Himself under this subjection to be good, but that is beside the point I am trying to make) And if God is indeed good which He Himself has created then how come it’s hard to believe that He has put Himself under the subjection of time that He created so He could relate to His creation? If God is not under the subjection of good and evil like He is not subject to time, how come His creation have to believe anything He says? Surely He cannot be good or bad.

2. Did God create good and evil? No. In this case if He didn’t create good and evil why would we need to believe He created time?

The right answer that seems to me is time is not a creation. It is imaginary. If it is imagination, it’s neither a limit that God has to be beyond or I have to be beyond to understand His sovereignty.

I do not think that God is traveling back to the past, but I do believe that He was present there, as He is now, and that He will be in the future until there is none...till all pass into the eternal

God was in the past and God will be in the future? Is not this true with man also? I was in the past(except not from eternity) and I will be in the future. Can God race me into the future and win? Can He exist in 2010 before me? If He does, won’t I not exist with Him in 2010(assuming I don’t die) so I will get there the same time He does and it’s a draw? Or is He going to end up in an alternate empty universe because we are still stuck in 2006 and He already reached 2010? In this case how can He foresee the future exhaustively if it has not yet come into existence?

Determinism
Newton, most scientists agreed on the presupposition that the universe is governed by (natural) laws that can be discovered and formalized by means of scientific observation and experiment. This position is known as determinism….thus the entire world is governed by natural law, then that means that human beings are also governed by natural law in their own actions. In other words, it means that there is no such thing as human freedom….they must be determined by universal laws of nature….Conversely, if it is accepted that human beings do have free will, then we must accept that the world is not entirely governed by natural law

God created this universe, sure science can formulate how it works through experiments. But when God made us, He said He made us in His image. He did not make us just like the rest of His creation. That is why we need constant attention because we have that freedome of will.