Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?

[beloved57]

The answer to the question is an absolutely yes ! Many scriptures indicate that, if we receive them honestly. Heres one that teaches it by antithesis 1 Thess 5:9

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

This statement presupposes that God has appointed some to wrath, that word appointed tithémi also means destined, to decree one to be subject to wrath,

All whom God did not choose in Christ and to obtain Salvation by Him, He destined, appointed, decreed them to wrath. This is a work of God, and as it is written Acts 15:18

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

 

[Sinthesis]

Your verses do not prove the predestination of the damned. Instead they express the realization of God's redemptive plan for all humanity, as necessitated by the fall.

1Th 5:8 - But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Th 5:9 - For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10 - Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.​

Notice that 'they' don't believe they are saved yet. They only hope to obtain salvation. Clearly they don't believe in predestination.

 

[beloved57]

Edited

Your verses do not prove the predestination of the damned

Yes it does, some people are appointed to wrath! They're also called vessels of wrath made to be fitted for destruction Rom 9:22.

 

[JLB]

edited



Yes it does, some people are appointed to wrath! They're also called vessels of wrath made to be fitted for destruction Rom 9:22.

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? Romans 9:22-24

When do we find out who is a vessel of wrath prepared for destruction, and who is a vessel of mercy prepared for glory?



JLB

 

[chessman]

When do we find out who is a vessel of wrath prepared for destruction, and who is a vessel of mercy prepared for glory?

We who are called of Jesus Christ, called to be saints and loved by God are the vessels of mercy Pre-pared for glory. We find this out just as soon as we receive His grace. We also know that we are now justified and glorified. Indeed predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son.

Romans 1:1-7 (LEB) Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, which he promised previously through his prophets in the holy scriptures, concerning his Son, who was born a descendant of David according to the flesh, who was declared Son of God in power according to the Holy Spirit by the resurrection from the dead of Jesus Christ our Lord, through whom we have received grace and apostleship for the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles on behalf of his name, among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ. To all those in Rome who are loved by God, called to be saints. Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 8:29-30 Lexham English Bible (LEB) 29 because those whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, so that he should be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined, these he also called, and those whom he called, these he also justified, and those whom he justified, these he also glorified.
​

And furthermore, we who have received grace, are called, justified and glorified know who it is that will separate us from that love of Christ/God Namely nobody or no thing:

Romans 8:35-39 (LEB) Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will affliction or distress or persecution or hunger or lack of sufficient clothing or danger or the sword? ... No, but in all these things we prevail completely through the one who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.​

We pre-vail completely (to defeat, to be victorious) through the one who loved us, gave us grace, called us, justified us and also glorified us. Powerful stuff that receiving grace.

​

 

[JLB]

We who are called of Jesus Christ, called to be saints and loved by God are the vessels of mercy Pre-pared for glory. We find this out just as soon as we receive His grace. We also know that we are now justified and glorified. Indeed predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son.

Romans 1:1-7 (LEB) Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, which he promised previously through his prophets in the holy scriptures, concerning his Son, who was born a descendant of David according to the flesh, who was declared Son of God in power according to the Holy Spirit by the resurrection from the dead of Jesus Christ our Lord, through whom we have received grace and apostleship for the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles on behalf of his name, among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ. To all those in Rome who are loved by God, called to be saints. Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 8:29-30 Lexham English Bible (LEB) 29 because those whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, so that he should be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined, these he also called, and those whom he called, these he also justified, and those whom he justified, these he also glorified.
​

And furthermore, we who have received grace, are called, justified and glorified know who it is that will separate us from that love of Christ/God Namely nobody or no thing:

Romans 8:35-39 (LEB) Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will affliction or distress or persecution or hunger or lack of sufficient clothing or danger or the sword? ... No, but in all these things we prevail completely through the one who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.​

We pre-vail completely (to defeat, to be victorious) through the one who loved us, gave us grace, called us, justified us and also glorified us. Powerful stuff that receiving grace.

God gives us all things needed to live a godly life, and receive eternal, which is by His grace and divine power.

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust... 2 Peter 1:2-4


Peter goes on to warn of those who after having been given all thing pertaining to life and godliness, and have escaped the corruption of the world, they are "entangled in them again and overcome", it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.


20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” 2 Peter 2:20-22


Concerning this grace, the writer of Hebrews says...

28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
Hebrews 10:28-29


JLB

 

[Douglas Summers]

The answer to the question is an absolutely yes ! Many scriptures indicate that, if we receive them honestly. Heres one that teaches it by antithesis 1 Thess 5:9

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

This statement presupposes that God has appointed some to wrath, that word appointed tithémi also means destined, to decree one to be subject to wrath,

All whom God did not choose in Christ and to obtain Salvation by Him, He destined, appointed, decreed them to wrath. This is a work of God, and as it is written Acts 15:18

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

God has appointed hell as a punishment for man, but God had not appointed man for hell. Yet, he has made some vessels of honor and some vessels of dishonor. Why? To make known His riches and Glory on the vessels of mercy that he had appointed beforehand in whom He had endured much long suffering on the vessels of wrath. It is not for us to instruct God on what He should do, or to make God fit into our own understanding of Him. It is His purpose and plan for us. Do not create God, let Him finish creating you. (Rom. 9:6-33)

 

[dirtfarmer]

dirtfarmer here

The scriptures that you find church doctrine was written by Paul. If you try to establish church doctrine from any other scripture, you get confusion, of which God is not the author of.

Hebrews was written to the Jewish people and it proves that Christ is better that the law, better than Moses
In chapter 3:verse 18 it speaks to the unbelief of the Israelites that stopped them from entering into his rest. To a land that had houses that they didn't build, vineyards they did not plant; a land that flowed with milk and honey.

1 & 2 Peter was written to " The strangers scatter abroad" in 1 Peter and is a reference to Leviticus 25:23. In 2 Peter 1:11 speaks of the "everlasting kingdom" which was a promise to the Israelites, not to the Gentiles. The Church will be the bride of Christ and will rule and reign in the kingdom with Christ.

 

[gr8grace3]

The answer to the question is an absolutely yes ! Many scriptures indicate that, if we receive them honestly. Heres one that teaches it by antithesis 1 Thess 5:9

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

This statement presupposes that God has appointed some to wrath, that word appointed tithémi also means destined, to decree one to be subject to wrath,

Edited by moderator
New American Standard Bible
'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

They will say the antithesis is," Well, that means that some believers can be erased from the book of life." NOT true, the antithesis is not stated, that is their own antithesis, not the bibles.

2 Pet 3:9~~New American Standard Bible
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Nothing you have said is in scripture, nor does it disprove that God has predestined some to wrath !

Rom. 9:6-33 read it and study it. God raised up Pharaoh and hardened his heart for the very purpose of showing His mercy and making His name known. Why is what God determined beforehand have anything to do with your or my salvation? and our service unto Him?

 

[Douglas Summers]

The answer to the question is an absolutely yes ! Many scriptures indicate that, if we receive them honestly. Heres one that teaches it by antithesis 1 Thess 5:9

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

This statement presupposes ???? that God has appointed some to wrath, that word appointed tithémi also means destined, to decree one to be subject to wrath,

All whom God did not choose in Christ and to obtain Salvation by Him, He destined, appointed, decreed them to wrath. This is a work of God, and as it is written Acts 15:18

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

 

[K2CHRIST]

The answer to the question is an absolutely yes ! Many scriptures indicate that, if we receive them honestly. Heres one that teaches it by antithesis 1 Thess 5:9

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

This statement presupposes that God has appointed some to wrath, that word appointed tithémi also means destined, to decree one to be subject to wrath,

All whom God did not choose in Christ and to obtain Salvation by Him, He destined, appointed, decreed them to wrath. This is a work of God, and as it is written Acts 15:18

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

If we say we believe in the Scriptures then how is it we quote a scripture and then try to prove it is incorrect?

If the Scriptures say "God hath not appointed us to wrath", then God not appointed us to wrath. That statement does not presuppose that God appointed some to wrath, but it does presuppose that not all we obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ though "us" meaning "us" have not been appointed to wrath. Everyone is supposed to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, but of course not all do and God knows that.

There is an assumption in the logic above and that assumption is that because God knows what will happen He appointed it to happen. We have choices to make in life and about life. God can know what choices we will make without actually appointing us to those choices. That is what freewill is all about. God gave us life and with life came the ability to make choices. They are our choices!! We are living beings!!

Now as it turns out, we are selfish beings. So we don't always make great choices. In fact, because we are selfish beings we tend to choose our decisions over anyone else's decisions, including God's. So then it becomes necessary for God to take some action to encourage us to make a good choice, that is to say, make a choice for God and His decisions. Because God has grace and like to give us His unmerited favor, He steps in.

So does His stepping into our lives mean we were appointed to heaven or hell? NO it doesn't. Now if He absolutely wants someone saved because of a plan He has for that person, He might then have stepped into their life to save them because He specifically appointed them to heaven, but still that doesn't mean that just because He didn't step into someone else's life they were appointed to hell. That is the assumption wrongly made in the OP.

 

[keptandprotected]

1 John 2:2 makes it clear Jesus' death on the cross was the propitiation for all the world, the sins of all mankind. Why would God have Jesus shed his blood for the whole world and then reserve it for certain people and not for others?

Jesus cried over the city of Jerusalem.. he wanted them to be saved but he will not interfere with free will. Free will, as we see it, is unknown to God. But God knows, as he sees it, what decisions we will make under our free will. That's the complex part of this all. That's the tension and the rub.

Predestination isn't something God forces on mankind, it's something he already knows beforehand, knowing who will reject Jesus and who will accept him.

 

[OzSpen]

The scriptures that you find church doctrine was written by Paul. If you try to establish church doctrine from any other scripture, you get confusion, of which God is not the author of.

I do not find anything in OT or NT to support that claim. Seems like it's a dirtfarmer doctrine (see Acts 17:11 ESV; 2 Tim 3:16-17 ESV).

However, double-predestination was the view of John Calvin. I've written about it in,
Did John Calvin believe in double-predestination? Therefore, we can expect some Calvinists to openly promote double-predestination, as is the case in this thread.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

1 John 2:2 makes it clear Jesus' death on the cross was the propitiation for all the world, the sins of all mankind. Why would God have Jesus shed his blood for the whole world and then reserve it for certain people and not for others?

Jesus cried over the city of Jerusalem.. he wanted them to be saved but he will not interfere with free will. Free will, as we see it, is unknown to God. But God knows, as he sees it, what decisions we will make under our free will. That's the complex part of this all. That's the tension and the rub.

Predestination isn't something God forces on mankind, it's something he already knows beforehand, knowing who will reject Jesus and who will accept him.

struggling,

I agree. I do not see that we can harmonise 1 John 2:2 (ESV) with 1 Thess 5:9 (ESV) if the latter verse is meant to mean that God predestines some to salvation and the rest (the majority) to damnation.

Oz

 

[chessman]

Why would God have Jesus shed his blood for the whole world and then reserve it for certain people and not for others?

The OP asks the question with respect to 1 Thess 5:9; Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?

Some what? Some people or some fallen angels?

Romans 9:22 (LEB) And what if God, wanting to demonstrate his wrath and to make known his power, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
​

It seems clear that God has prepared Angels to perform certain roles within His creation:

Revelation 9:15 (NASB)
15 And the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released, so that they would kill a third of mankind.

Matthew 25:41 [NASB]
“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;​

Why can't the "vessels of wrath" be the angels that fell? Is God not enduring them with much patience so that He will eventually make known His power against them in order that we (us people) could make known His Glory?

Romans 9:23-24 (LEB) And he did so in order that he could make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy that he prepared beforehand for glory, us whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

Matthew 20:23 (NASB)
He *said to them, “My cup you shall drink; but to sit on My right and on My left, this is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by My Father.”​

Why can't the vessels of mercy be people? Indeed the people of the whole world whom were never appointed for wrath. None of them. The ones that don't choose to believe Jesus is Lord do so of their own choosing.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 (LEB) because God did not appoint us for wrath, but for the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, ​

Those people that obtain salvation do so of their own free will. Those people that do not obtain salvation, likewise, do so of their own free will.

Simple, really.

 

[smaller]

The OP asks the question with respect to 1 Thess 5:9; Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?

Some what? Some people or some fallen angels?

Romans 9:22 (LEB) And what if God, wanting to demonstrate his wrath and to make known his power, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
​

It seems clear that God has prepared Angels to perform certain roles within His creation:

Revelation 9:15 (NASB)
15 And the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released, so that they would kill a third of mankind.

Matthew 25:41 [NASB]
“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;​

Why can't the "vessels of wrath" be the angels that fell? Is God not enduring them with much patience so that He will eventually make known His power against them in order that we (us people) could make known His Glory?

Romans 9:23-24 (LEB) And he did so in order that he could make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy that he prepared beforehand for glory, us whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

Matthew 20:23 (NASB)
He *said to them, “My cup you shall drink; but to sit on My right and on My left, this is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by My Father.”​

Why can't the vessels of mercy be people? Indeed the people of the whole world whom were never appointed for wrath. None of them. The ones that don't choose to believe Jesus is Lord do so of their own choosing.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 (LEB) because God did not appoint us for wrath, but for the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, ​

Those people that obtain salvation do so of their own free will. Those people that do not obtain salvation, likewise, do so of their own free will.

Simple, really.

Probably one of the most brilliant posts I've seen here in quite awhile, notwithstanding the freewill portion.

Yes, God has assuredly assigned all devils to hell, beyond any doubt. There will be no avoiding that fate for them.

Matthew 23:33
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

And they know it too:

Matthew 8:29
And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

 

[chessman]

notwithstanding the freewill portion.

What do you have against Free Wilily? I thought it was a great movie.

 

[JLB]

Those people that obtain salvation do so of their own free will. Those people that do not obtain salvation, likewise, do so of their own free will.

Simple, really.

:amen

 

[smaller]

What do you have against Free Wilily? I thought it was a great movie.

2 Corinthians 4:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

I only witness to ONE of the parties above about the Love of God in Christ for THEM. The other, I condemn, as the Word directs to do.

Captives who are blinded in mind did not "ask" by their freewill to be that way. They are BLINDED CAPTIVES who must be "forcibly removed" from the hold of their captor.

How anyone thinks that captives have freewill in that equation speaks only to their lack of insight of their OWN prior captivity to the same party.

Ephesians 2:
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Did anyone EVER witness to you when you were "unsaved" that you were a blinded in mind SLAVE of the DEVIL?

If they did, I'm quite sure they managed to blame ONLY YOU and ignored the blinding power of the other party and the "rightful" condemnation of the other party, entirely and altogether. That speaks to the blindness that believers still have. They blindly see only ONE party in the equations when scripture shows us how many? TWO.

To preach, to SHARE the Gospel, a believer has to be able to count to TWO and account for TWO. We do not "preach" salvation to the CAPTOR, the BLINDER of the captives, but rather condemn. And we do not mix the parties up, falsely claiming "one is the other" when that is obviously NOT the case in captor/captive spiritual blindness.

But the church members have been soooo blind. They will claim captives have 'freewill' in their blindness, completely IGNORING the CAPTOR, the other party. It's just a pity, really.

When Jesus told Paul to OPEN THEIR EYES in Acts 26:18, who are they being turned to observe but their CAPTOR??? Open the eyes. Open the JAIL DOORS. Turn to God in Christ and SEE the difference.

The "world" of the unsaved is WAITING for us to see BETTER for them, and WORSE for the other party.