Did Muhammad ever encourage deceit? YES or NO

[Gary]

Did Muhammad ever encourage deceit? YES or NO

:o :o

 

[Heidi]

That's like asking if Charles Manson ever encouraged deceit! It's a rhetorical question. Mohammed himself thought allah was the devil at first so since he also said that allah was God, then one of his statements was a lie. Question answered.

 

[Bilal]

Lets see where this leads.... :roll:

 

[Gary]

Murder and deceit - trademarks of Muhammad’s character

Murder and deceit - trademarks of Muhammad’s character

Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369:
http://answer-islam.org/Inspiredhadith2.html#MURDER

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:
Allah's Apostle said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, "You may say it." Then Muhammad bin Maslama went to Kab and said, "That man (i.e. Muhammad demands Sadaqa (i.e. Zakat) from us, and he has troubled us, and I have come to borrow something from you." On that, Kab said, "By Allah, you will get tired of him!" Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Now as we have followed him, we do not want to leave him unless and until we see how his end is going to be. Now we want you to lend us a camel load or two of food." (Some difference between narrators about a camel load or two.) Kab said, "Yes, (I will lend you), but you should mortgage something to me." Muhammad bin Mas-lama and his companion said, "What do you want?" Ka'b replied, "Mortgage your women to me." They said, "How can we mortgage our women to you and you are the most handsome of the 'Arabs?" Ka'b said, "Then mortgage your sons to me." They said, "How can we mortgage our sons to you? Later they would be abused by the people's saying that so-and-so has been mortgaged for a camel load of food. That would cause us great disgrace, but we will mortgage our arms to you." Muhammad bin Maslama and his companion promised Kab that Muhammad would return to him. He came to Kab at night along with Kab's foster brother, Abu Na'ila. Kab invited them to come into his fort, and then he went down to them. His wife asked him, "Where are you going at this time?" Kab replied, "None but Muhammad bin Maslama and my (foster) brother Abu Na'ila have come." His wife said, "I hear a voice as if dropping blood is from him, Ka'b said. "They are none but my brother Muhammad bin Maslama and my foster brother Abu Naila. A generous man should respond to a call at night even if invited to be killed." Muhammad bin Maslama went with two men. (Some narrators mention the men as 'Abu bin Jabr. Al Harith bin Aus and Abbad bin Bishr). So Muhammad bin Maslama went in together with two men, and sail to them, "When Ka'b comes, I will touch his hair and smell it, and when you see that I have got hold of his head, strip him. I will let you smell his head." Kab bin Al-Ashraf came down to them wrapped in his clothes, and diffusing perfume. Muhammad bin Maslama said. " have never smelt a better scent than this. Ka'b replied. "I have got the best 'Arab women who know how to use the high class of perfume." Muhammad bin Maslama requested Ka'b "Will you allow me to smell your head?" Ka'b said, "Yes." Muhammad smelt it and made his companions smell it as well. Then he requested Ka'b again, "Will you let me (smell your head)?" Ka'b said, "Yes." When Muhammad got a strong hold of him, he said (to his companions), "Get at him!" So they killed him and went to the Prophet and informed him. (Abu Rafi) was killed after Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf."

:-?

 

[Guest]

A Christian cannot teach Islam. Period!

 

[Gary]

I have used you own Hadith to show that Muhammad encouraged deceit. Do you dispute the facts?

 

[Guest]

This is why i say a Christian cannot teach Islam.

you have no knowledge in how to interpret Hadith's and how they were said and why they were said.


so am happy your just ignorant of it so no matter

peace

 

[Gary]

This is why i say a Christian cannot teach Islam.

you have no knowledge in how to interpret Hadith's and how they were said and why they were said.

Then would you like to explain why Muhammad encouraged deceit?

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:
Allah's Apostle said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, "You may say it."

P.S. I have a very good understanding of how and why Muhammad silenced his critics. But I would like to see your explanation.

 

[Soma-Sight]

Gary,

God uses lying spirits to accimplish His goals so Muhhamad may not be an exception....

1 Kings 22:22

And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

1 Kings 22:23

Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

2 Chronicles 18:21

And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the Lord said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.


2 Chronicles 18:22

Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.

1Samuel 16:14-15 states,

"But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee."

 

[cheese]

This is why i say a Christian cannot teach Islam.

you have no knowledge in how to interpret Hadith's and how they were said and why they were said.

The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, "You may say it."

Please dont consider this out of context. This occured during a war, and the person needed the permission of the prophet to decieve one of their enemies. This man was extremely vulgar, he was plotting against the prophet and was working against him by trying to convince as many people as he can to fight against the prophet. Furthermore, he was plotting to have the prophet murdered. Thus, the prophet planned to kill this man before he tried to kill him. Keep in mind that this was a time of war. In order for the prophets companion to kill the man, he needed to pretend to dislike the prophet so that he could get the man alone and kill him. In this context, you can see that the permission given by the prophet to that person is justified.

You will notice that the prophet did not give permission for the man to be decietful to, say, his neighbour, his family, his customers. Honesty is a very important part of a Muslims character.

There a only a very small number of situations when a person can lie, and one of them is in war, and ALL of them serve to better the community.

Peace.

 

[Gary]

Exposing the false prophet called Muhammad

(1) This man was extremely vulgar,
(2) he was plotting against the prophet and
(3) was working against him by trying to convince as many people as he can to fight against the prophet. Furthermore,
(4) he was plotting to have the prophet murdered.

Thus, the prophet planned to kill this man before he tried to kill him.

Prove all 4 points above. Show me the Hadith.

Thanks.

What I would like to suggest is something very different.

Kab was a Jew. He hated Muhammad. Kab never lifted a weapon against Muhammad or any Muslim, he only voiced his opinion against Muhammad, and made up some unsavory poems about Muslim women. Muhammad saw him as a threat, and therefore had him murdered in the night.

The Jews around Medina were not under Muhammad's rule; they had only entered into a general agreement with the Muslims, but this agreement was not a formal, established treaty. Muhammad did not have legal right to murder Kab, rather he took it upon himself to get rid of a man who hated him.

source

 

[cheese]

Re: Exposing the false prophet called Muhammad

Prove all 4 points above. Show me the Hadith.

Thanks.

What I would like to suggest is something very different.

Kab was a Jew. He hated Muhammad. Kab never lifted a weapon against Muhammad or any Muslim, he only voiced his opinion against Muhammad, and made up some unsavory poems about Muslim women. Muhammad saw him as a threat, and therefore had him murdered in the night.

The Jews around Medina were not under Muhammad's rule; they had only entered into a general agreement with the Muslims, but this agreement was not a formal, established treaty. Muhammad did not have legal right to murder Kab, rather he took it upon himself to get rid of a man who hated him.

source

You ask me to provide you with a hadith to prove my points. Why is it that you didnt ask for a hadith to prove what you qouted about Kab did?

he only voiced his opinion against Muhammad, and made up some unsavory poems about Muslim women

This was not mentioned in the hadith provided on the website that you link to, so clearly that article is not complete since in the introduction you are required to take the word of and anti-islamic writer that these were indeed kabs only actions.

I qoute this from the link you gave:

Note what really happened here. Ka'b encouraged Muhammad's enemies, and made up some poems about Muslim women.

Here it is clear that he was plotting against the prophet by encouraging his enemies.

I further qoute:

The Life of the Prophet Muhammad volume III by Ibn Kathir.

THE KILLING OF KA’B B. AL-SHRAF, THE JEW

Ibn Ishaq stated, “ Ka’b b. al-Ashraf was of the Ta’I tribe, of the sub-tribe of Banu Nabhan, though his mother was of Banu al-Nadir. He received news of the deaths of those at Badr after the arrival of Zayd b. Al- Haritha and ‘Abd Allah b. Rawaha. He commented, ‘ By God, if Muhammad has really struck down those people, then better be inside the earth than upon it!

“When this enemy of God was sure of this news, he left for Mecca, where he visited al-Muttalib b. Abu Wada’a b.Dubayrat al- Samhi, whose wife was ‘Atika, daughter of Abu al- Is b. Ummayya b. ‘Abd Shams b. ‘Abd Manaf. She accommodated him graciously AND HE BEGAN INSTIGATING AN ATTACK UPON THE MESSENGER OF GOD (SAAS) speaking verses and mourning the deaths of those polytheists killed at Badr.â€Â

Here Ibn Ishaq gave his poem which begins with the verse,

“The Badr millstone ground to death those killed there,

and for the like of Badr one speaks and weeps.â€Â

He also gave the response to this poem by Hassan b. Thabit, may God be pleased with him, as well as verse by others.

He went on, “ Ka’b then returned to Medina where he composed verses suggestive about the Muslim women and critical of the prophet (SAAS) and his followers.

Musa b. Uqba stated, “Ka’b b. al- Ashraf was of Banu al-Nadir, or associated with them, he harmed the messenger of God (SAAS) by ridiculing him in verse AND HE RODE TO QURAYSH TO INCITE THEM FURTHER. Abu Sufyan, in Mecca, asked him, ‘ In your view, I pray you tell me, which religion is more favored by God, that of Muhammad and his friends, or our own? Which of us do you think, is more correct and appropriate? We slaughter our meat generously, give milk-topped water to drink, providing food for all sundry who come.’

“Ka’b b al-Ashraf replied, ‘ You are better-guided in your path than they are.’ Pg. 6-7

Source

This is a historical account giving extra information about what really happened. If you follow the link you will find more information.Oh and 'Badr' refers to the battle of Bard, a war. (Thats your proof)

Furthermore, I would like to express how astounded I am that you consider one isolated incident sufficeint proof to label as man as decietful, while completly ignoring all the other occasions that show him to be truthful. Did you know that from before Muhammad pbuh even became a prophet he was labelled As-Saadiq al-Ameen, meaning "The truthful, the trustworthy".

I would like to finish by reminding you to bear in mind that this did occur in a time of war, and so naturally, the deciet was justified.

Peace.

 

[Gary]

Exposing the false prophet

Of course, this is not the only case where Muhammad had his opponents murdered.

So we have established that Muhammad did allow deceit. :o

Under what circumstances are you, as a Muslim, allowed to be deceitful?

 

[cheese]

Re: Exposing the false prophet

Of course, this is not the only case where Muhammad had his opponents murdered.

So we have established that Muhammad did allow deceit. :o

Under what circumstances are you, as a Muslim, allowed to be deceitful?

Finally, you ask a question instead of demanding that i accept what you tell me about Muhammad from one example. Thats what i call being open minded.

My apologies, i cant answer this question straight away as i am rather busy with exams at the moment, i will try to answer as soon as i am free. Hopefully you will see the error of your sweeping statement that the prophet was a deceiving person, when nothing could be further from the truth.

Peace.

 

[Gary]

Muhammad was a deceiver, a thief, he encouraged rape, he had his opponents murdered, he had sex with a girl who was 9 years old!

He is hardly an example to follow.

Compare him to Jesus and you will see why no born-again, thinking Christian would ever consider following Muhammad rather than our Lord Jesus Christ.

I will await your answer to "Under what circumstances are you, as a Muslim, allowed to be deceitful?" Please ensure that you include all circumstances in which you would be deceitful. You may use Muhammad as your example.

Deceitful = Deliberately misleading; deceptive
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=deceitful

 

[cheese]

Sahih Muslim. Book 032, Number 6303:
Humaid b. 'Abd al-Rahman b. 'Auf reported that his mother Umm Kulthum daughter of 'Uqba b. Abu Mu'ait, and she was one amongst the first emigrants who pledged allegiance to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him), as saying that she heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: A liar is not one who tries to bring reconciliation amongst people and speaks good (in order to avert dispute), or he conveys good. Ibn Shihab said he did not hear that exemption was granted in anything what the people speak as lie but in three cases: in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband (in a twisted form in order to bring reconciliation between them).

Deception is allowed based on this hadith. As you can see, nowhere does it say that a Muslim can be deceptive whenever he or she wants just for the sake of it, as you seem to have implied.

1. War is deception. i.e. it is permissible to deceive ones enemies as shown in the example that Gary provided. I guess this is just obvious. Examples would be when the prophet would march his troops in his own direction, so that people would think he was headed to a certain place and then he would suddenly start walking them in a different direction. In addition, if the enemy captures a Muslim and they ask him about certain things, he is allowed to say 'I don’t know', or give false information.

2. To bring reconciliation between Muslims, i.e. when they are fighting or something like that. A Muslim may use 'hikmah' (wisdom) to make peace between those who are fighting if it involves lying. Although lying is generally a sin in Islam, it is permissible in this case as it is for the 'greater good' of bring harmony back into the community. Naturally, one should not abuse this right, or else that would be classed as sinning. For example, you backbite someone and then you regret it and do not do it again. The person hears that you had talked about him and then asks you and a friend if it is true. You may both say no it is not true, in order to keep the peace. HOWEVER, this does NOT mean that one can continue to backbite someone and keep telling him or her that they are not talking about him or her. This is just plain lying and backbiting- the person will be punished for this unless they sincerely repent and try to fix the situation, because by doing so, the Muslim is creating animosity intentionally rather than peace between people.

3. Between the husband and wife, in order to maintain good relations again. Naturally, one must use wisdom and good judgement if one chooses to conceal the truth. However, some times it might be better to be slightly dishonest in order to 'keep the peace'. For example, if the husband had been (unintentionally) doing something that upsets his wife, and he try’s not to do it, but then for some reason he ends up doing it, then to keep the peace he may not mention to his wife that he did it, or if she asks he will say no. Of course, if it were a serious situation, then honesty would be the best way to go. However if honesty would in that case lead to a bad situation over a triviality, then perhaps in such cases a lie would be preferable.

Again, I emphasis that one must use good judgement in such circumstances. One should certainly not make lying a habit, or abuse this privilege. Note also that the hadith mentioned does NOT encourage lying, rather it just says that it is preferable.

Lying, in general, is frowned upon in Islam:

The Prophet (peace be upon him) also said: “Honesty leads to righteousness and righteousness leads to Paradise. A man remains honest and concerned about honesty until he is recorded as an honest man with Allah. Lying leads to sinfulness and sinfulness leads to the Fire. A man keeps lying and remains partial to lies until he is recorded as a liar with Allah.†[Sahîh al-Bukharî and Sahîh Muslim]

An article about the status of honesty in Islam can be found here: http://islamtoday.com/showme2.cfm?cat_i ... cat_id=606

I hope that clarifies everything.

Peace.

 

[Gary]

Exposing the lies of Muslims. When can they lie?

I was wondering if you have told us about all the situations in which you are allowed to lie or use deceit as a Muslim.

Please answer this simply: Is it permissable (as a Muslim) to conceal your faith and to hide your beliefs?

:o

 

[cheese]

Re: Exposing the lies of Muslims. When can they lie?

I was wondering if you have told us about all the situations in which you are allowed to lie or use deceit as a Muslim.

Please answer this simply: Is it permissable (as a Muslim) to conceal your faith and to hide your beliefs?

:o

[I’m writing this for the second time, when I pressed submit the first time something weird happened and it all got erased!! it was soo long! :]

Yep, that is about all the situations, based on that hadith.

In reply to your second question, it is generally not allowed for a Muslim to conceal his or her Islamic identity (i.e. pretend to be a non-Muslim). However, as with many things there are some exceptions. Namely, a Muslim will not be held accountable for his declaration of disbelief if he or she is forced to do so because of: severe torture, if ones life is threatened or in certain occasions in war.

An example of concealing ones true identity in war was given in the hadith that you posted originally, about the Prophet giving the person permission to talk badly about him so that he may convince the enemy that he was not loyal to the prophet Muhammad pbuh (peace be upon him).

Another example is that of 'ammar ibn yasir, who was tortured by the enemy until they forced him to say good about their idols. For him to say is a form of disbelief, however because he was forced to do so by torture, he is not counted as having sinned as he did not say so out of his own free will. In fact, due to this incident, a verse from the Holy Quran was revealed to the prophet:

"Whoever disbelieved in Allah after his belief, except him who is forced thereto and whose heart is at rest with Faith; but such as open their breasts to disbelief, on them is wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a great torment." [Quran: Chapter 16, Verse 106]

So we can see that in some circumstances it is permissible for a Muslim to declare disbelief, as long he or she does not do so more than is required (which will determined by the situation) and as long as in the persons heart he or she holds true to faith.

Naturally, this does not mean that one may conceal ones faith for reasons as simple as one lives in a non-Muslim society and fears the backlash one might get for being Muslim (for example: the all so common: 'Go back to where you came from!', 'Terrorist!' etc.).

I hope that answers your question. I would like to return to the original discussion: did my previous reply to the circumstances where dishonesty is allowed satisfy you that the prophet Muhammad was not a liar and that he did not encourage deception?

Peace.

 

[Gary]

Showing the deceit of Muslims... when can they lie?

I would like to return to the original discussion: did my previous reply to the circumstances where dishonesty is allowed satisfy you that the prophet Muhammad was not a liar and that he did not encourage deception?

You have agreed that Muhammad allowed deceit. You have also stated several more cases where Muhammad allowed and allows deceit.

I contend that the cases you have stated are not ALL the circumstances in which a Muslim can be (and are) deceitful.

However, I will give you another chance.... have you identified all cases where Islam allows deceit?

:-?

 

[cheese]

Re: Showing the deceit of Muslims... when can they lie?

You have agreed that Muhammad allowed deceit. You have also stated several more cases where Muhammad allowed and allows deceit.

I contend that the cases you have stated are not ALL the circumstances in which a Muslim can be (and are) deceitful.

However, I will give you another chance.... have you identified all cases where Islam allows deceit?

:-?

I believe i have. If you believe otherwise then please put forth your claim, rather then sugessting that I myself am being deceitful at the moment by concealing some truth from you. I am after all only human and may have over looked something, possibly because i forgot, did not realise that it fits in this context, or because I was not aware of it.

I agreed that Muhammad pbuh allowed deceit in certain circumstances when a greater good was at hand, as highlighted by the above posts and prohibited it in all other circumstances.