Did Paul Teach Torah

[manichunter]

These are some of the teaching of Paul that are not from the 10 Commandments, but recorded and listed within the teachings/laws of God in the Torah.


Why do people not consider them Torah? What are they if they are not Torah?
They are the judgments of God, and they still apply in spirit by the Spirit.


Saul taught against fornication. This is torah, not a new law, but old.
Eph 5:3 - But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints;

Saul taught against sexual immorality. This is torah, not a new law.
1Co 5:1 -It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles--that a man has his father's wife!

Are these not teachings of torah handed to Israel from Mt. Sinai? Why is Paul reteaching them if they are no longer applicable?


What has to be seen are the principles behind what Paul taught. Paul taught from the torah. He taught principles, doctrine, and lifestyle from the torah. He had no choice but to teach from it because it was all he had to teach from. This above Scripture provide clear evidence that he endorsed elements of the Torah in addition to the Ten Commandments. The breaking of the torah was manifested by the following dead works.


Galatians5:19-21 19Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.



These are the dead works which are manifested when we act in lawlessness and live contrary to the teachings of God. These are conclusions and manifestations of what was spelled out in detail in the first covenant torah.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

No offense, but how many threads are you going to start on this Torah stuff?

 

[Psalm_40]

Paul's teaching was that you are saved not by works, that is, observing the law or the torah, but by faith in jesus. He said that works is a necessary sign of true faith, showing the regeneration of your will to do the will of the father by grace through faith. The law was put into place to show us the moral standard of God and to open our eyes to how we can never live up to that standard, due to the depravity of man in his fallen state. so paul says that the law does need to be observed, but no man can be saved under the law because all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. in faith we are reconciled to him and given a new heart which desires his will, to pursue his glory and obey his commands.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Paul's teaching was that you are saved not by works, that is, observing the law or the torah, but by faith in jesus.....

No, thats not what Paul was saying. He was saying that we are not saved by works of the Torah (Torah = "Law"), such as circumcision. And that is true.

But he NEVER just flatly said you are not saved by works, and he never flatly said you are saved by faith alone. Works of charity, which Christ commanded us to do, are necessary for your salvation.

There is only one place in the whole Bible where the words "faith alone" appear side by side: "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" (James 2:24).

 

[Psalm_40]

Ah, but you take the verse out of context, my friend! Start at verse 14, and you find that this does not contrast my viewpoint. What i say is that works alone is dead, because no-one can live up to the law, due to sinful nature. See romans 8:3,4 regarding this. What i said is consistent with all this, that is, that true faith will always lead to good works. the good works come because of our faith, and a lack of any good works is an indicator of false faith. i suppose a good summary is romans 6:22... -but now that you have been set free from sin ::faith:: and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap is holiness ::works::, and the result is eternal life.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

It seems to me that if the Apostle James, under the inspiration of God, wrote that we are not justified by faith alone, then we should heed that straighforward statement.

In Matthew 25: 31-46, you'll note that it is the people who did good works of charity that are saved. The ones who do not shall perish.

 

[Psalm_40]

Ok, so you need to have works, as i have said all along. The question i would now raise is, where do the works come from?

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Ok, so you need to have works, as i have said all along. The question i would now raise is, where do the works come from?

GREAT QUESTION. I have always said that "free will" comes into play here. YES, God gives us grace to do good works, and works done apart from God's grace are of no use. We would probably agree on that.

BUT, God's grace - which is free - demands a free response from man. So, even though God gives me the grace to do good works, I must make an act of the will to actually do those works and respond to God's grace. That is why I disagree with those who say that good works automatically flow once you are "saved" (as they say). There is no "free will" involved in that theory. That is why the faith that saves is a working faith. To quote Galatians 5:6: For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

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[BobRyan]

These are some of the teaching of Paul that are not from the 10 Commandments, but recorded and listed within the teachings/laws of God in the Torah.


Why do people not consider them Torah? What are they if they are not Torah?
They are the judgments of God, and they still apply in spirit by the Spirit.

Torah (i.e. LAW) refers primarily to the books of Moses.

D.L. Moody has a great sermon on-line regarding the continued authority of the Ten Commandments.

In Acts 17:11 we read this of the Toran and the entire OT "they studied the scriptures daily to see IF THOSE THINGS spoken to them by Paul WERE SO".

That is resounding endorsement of it.

In 2Tim 3:16 we have "ALL scripture is given by inspiration from God and is profitable for doctrine and reproof" ANOTHER resounding endorsement of God's Word -- ALL of it.

Are these not teachings of torah handed to Israel from Mt. Sinai? Why is Paul reteaching them if they are no longer applicable?

They are applicable.

What has to be seen are the principles behind what Paul taught. Paul taught from the torah. He taught principles, doctrine, and lifestyle from the torah. He had no choice but to teach from it because it was all he had to teach from.

True. In fact when we read Acts 21 and 22 we find that Paul claims that he taught NOTHING in violation of the entire OT.

This above Scripture provide clear evidence that he endorsed elements of the Torah in addition to the Ten Commandments. The breaking of the torah was manifested by the following dead works.


Galatians5:19-21 19Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

All true.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

But he NEVER just flatly said you are not saved by works,

Yes he did - in both Romans 3 and in Galatians 3.

You are right about James two justified by works not by faith alone - but that is in reference to "future justification" as Paul points out in Romans 2 "the doers of the law will be Justified" ... it is not in reference to PAST justification mentioned in Romans 5:1 "Having BEEN justified by faith we HAVE peace with God". Past justification is always as Paul states in Romans 3 "apart from the works of the Law".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Paul's teaching was that you are saved not by works, that is, observing the law or the torah, but by faith in jesus. He said that works is a necessary sign of true faith, showing the regeneration of your will to do the will of the father by grace through faith.

True.

The law was put into place to show us the moral standard of God and to open our eyes to how we can never live up to that standard,

Also true - we will never be able to enter heaven due to a "sinless record". Our record is stained with sin which is violation of the authorotative law of God -- which is why it can still condemn the sinner -- it still exists.

so paul says that the law does need to be observed,

On the Contrary Paul says "But what MATTERS is KEEPING the commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19

Paul says "Do we then by faith ABOLISH the Law of God? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God" Rom 3:31.

Paul says "It is not the hearers but the DOERS of the Law that WILL be JUSTIFIED" Rom 2:13

Paul says in Eph 6:2 "Children obey your parents for this is the first COMMANDMENT with a promise"

There is lots of "do not ignore the Law of God" in the writings of Paul.

D.L Moody has a good sermon on the continued authority of the Ten Commandments -- want the link?

but no man can be saved under the law because all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

True. Nobody will be saved "because they are sinless" for ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

in faith we are reconciled to him and given a new heart which desires his will, to pursue his glory and obey his commands.

That is exactly right!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Psalm_40]

Thanks for that, bob! I agree wholeheartedly with you on every point. When i said that the law needs to be observed, i did mean that we still have to obey it... it seems like there was an error in communication! Love in christ, psalm_40

 

[BobRyan]

Sorry for the confusion then in my response -- keep up the good work.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Lewis]

There are 613 Torah laws, and the moral ones of the 613, still stand even today. Laws like don't sleep with your sister, and etc.

 

[BobRyan]

The 613 laws are not exactly scripture - more like Jewish commentary on scripture -- for example

Love your neighbor as yourself (Lev 19:18) which Christ shows as meaning -- love for all mankind -- gets translated to

"To love all human beings who are of the covenant (Lev. 19:18) (CCA60). See Love and Brotherhood. "

Also notice that number 613 is "to destroy Amelak" - the Amelakites http://www.barmitzvahs.org/judaism/613.php

in Christ,

Bob