Discernment and false teachers

[felix]

Ok. Think about what you said….again.
We both agree that they were false witnesses. But then you say their accusation against Stephen was true. If their accusation of Stephen was true, what made them false?

Hint: Acts 7 are Stephen’s own words before the Council and he upholds Moses, the Law and the Temple. And he correctly accuses them of not obeying the Law, which is what infuriated them so much as to stone him right there on the spot. (Ironically, both Stephen and the Messiah were put to death after they both rightfully accused the Council and religious leaders of not obeying Moses.)

You don't seem to understand the situation at all.

Saying Christ as God or Son of God or Messiah for Jews, itself is blasphemous for any non messianic Jew. How can you expect the same council who crucified Christ to accept Stephen's teachings about Christ and allow this blasphemy (according to them)?

Below are the accusations:
(Acts 6:11) Then they secretly induced men to say, "We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses and God."
Preaching or even saying Christ as God or the only begotten Son of God is blasphemous.
To say that the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ, is not only speaking against Moses but exalting above Moses who gave their law.

(Acts 6:13) They also set up false witnesses who said, "This man does not cease to speak blasphemous words against this holy place and the law;
Christ Himself said, He is greater than the temple.
It is also blasphemous according to them to say Jesus fulfilled the law

(Acts 6:14) for we have heard him say that this Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place and change the customs which Moses delivered to us."
As mentioned in the previous post, Christ did mention that.

The accusation is simply because, they don't believe in Jesus Christ. Much the same way a Christian preacher is persecuted in a closed country. If a Christian preacher preached the gospel, and said, Christ is God in a closed country, surely they will kill him, not because what he said was lie (as we certainly know it is the truth), but it is indeed a lie or blasphemous according to them.

Hope this explanation helps.

 

[Carolyn]

Hi allenwynne!
Whilst it is true that all good things are from above, I don't see were discernment is a particular gift.
Heb 5:14 But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.
Sure, we do need to pray
Php 1:9 And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in real knowledge and all discernment,
Php 1:10 so that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ;
Php 1:11 having been filled with the fruit of righteousness which comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.
We have to practice and train our senses to be able to discern.

THe verse that lists discernment as a gift is in 1 Cor. 12; 9.

 

[nmwings]

You don't seem to understand the situation at all.

Saying Christ as God or Son of God or Messiah for Jews, itself is blasphemous for any non messianic Jew. How can you expect the same council who crucified Christ to accept Stephen's teachings about Christ and allow this blasphemy (according to them)?

I understand it quite well. But the fact remains that Acts 6 identifies a false witness as anyone who speaks against Moses, the Law, the Temple or who says Messiah changed the Law. I know it’s hard to swallow because this goes against the teachings of mainstream Christianity. But you cannot ignore this passage of Scripture just because it doesn’t “fit†into your beliefs.

And you never answered my question: You said their accusation against Stephen was true….

The stmt has to be:
"The witness is false but not what they said about Stephen. )

If their accusation of Stephen was true, what made them false?

To say that the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ, is not only speaking against Moses but exalting above Moses who gave their law.

Grace and truth isn’t something that just “popped up†suddenly after 4,000 years since the Creation. God’s grace is seen all the way back to the Garden. Grace is “receiving something you didn’t deserve.†Yes, the Messiah is better than Moses, but He doesn’t take from Moses and Law. In fact, He made them even greater!

(Acts 6:14) for we have heard him say that this Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place and change the customs which Moses delivered to us."[/COLOR]

As mentioned in the previous post, Christ did mention that.

The Messiah never said He would change the customs of Moses. Just the opposite…. He said not one jot or tiddle would go away.

 

[By Grace]

Ok. Think about what you said….again.
We both agree that they were false witnesses. But then you say their accusation against Stephen was true. If their accusation of Stephen was true, what made them false?

Hint: Acts 7 are Stephen’s own words before the Council and he upholds Moses, the Law and the Temple. And he correctly accuses them of not obeying the Law, which is what infuriated them so much as to stone him right there on the spot. (Ironically, both Stephen and the Messiah were put to death after they both rightfully accused the Council and religious leaders of not obeying Moses.)

I believe that Felix is posting a statement that is contrary to fact, but is a relative truth as it pertains to the accusers of Stephen.

 

[felix]

I know it’s hard to swallow because this goes against the teachings of mainstream Christianity. But you cannot ignore this passage of Scripture just because it doesn’t “fit” into your beliefs.

The Messiah never said He would change the customs of Moses. Just the opposite…. He said not one jot or tiddle would go away.

I don't follow mainstream Christianity but, Christ and His Scripture. Frankly, Christ did change the customs of Moses.

(John 4:21) Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father.
(John 4:22) You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.
(John 4:23) But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.

Christ said, you don't need to go anywhere to worship the Father, a direct contradiction to Deuteronomy 16:16 which requires the presence of all males thrice a year.

Also regarding the jot and tiddle, here is what the verse says:

Matt 5:18-19 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches [them,] he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

However, none of "these commandments" mentioned by Christ are actually from the law of Moses
Matt 5:20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds [the] [righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matt 5:22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.
Matt 5:28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Matt 5:32 But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.
Matt 5:34 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne;
Matt 5:39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
Matt 5:44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,

Let me know if any of the above are from the law.

I understand it quite well. But the fact remains that Acts 6 identifies a false witness as anyone who speaks against Moses, the Law, the Temple or who says Messiah changed the Law.

If their accusation of Stephen was true, what made them false?
And you never answered my question: You said their accusation against Stephen was true….

The witness is false. A witness is someone who had witnessed the event. A false witness is someone who haven't witnessed the event but says as if he witnessed it irrespective of what he says. I had already showed you that this is the case, as in Christ's false witnesses.

The verses are much clear on this:
(Acts 6:11) Then they secretly induced men to say, "We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses and God."
(Acts 6:12) And they stirred up the people, the elders, and the scribes; and they came upon [him,] seized him, and brought [him] to the council.
(Acts 6:13) They also set up false witnesses who said, "This man does not cease to speak blasphemous words against this holy place and the law;

Acts 6 does not identify who a false witness is. It clearly says they "set up" false witnesses, which means, the witnesses were false and did not actually witness the event.

Grace and truth isn’t something that just “popped up” suddenly after 4,000 years since the Creation. God’s grace is seen all the way back to the Garden. Grace is “receiving something you didn’t deserve.” Yes, the Messiah is better than Moses, but He doesn’t take from Moses and Law. In fact, He made them even greater!

(John 1:14) And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
(John 1:15) John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.'"
(John 1:16) And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace.
(John 1:17) For the law was given through Moses, [but] grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

It is John the baptist who said, "For the law was given through Moses, [but] grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.".

So, grace and truth just "popped up" 4000 years since creation according to John who bore witness to Christ.

 

[nmwings]

I believe that Felix is posting a statement that is contrary to fact, but is a relative truth as it pertains to the accusers of Stephen.

Define oxymoron: a combination of contradictory or incongruous words.... as in: cruel kindness or "a statement contrary to fact, but is a relative truth."

 

[nmwings]

Christ said, you don't need to go anywhere to worship the Father, a direct contradiction to Deuteronomy 16:16 which requires the presence of all males thrice a year.

You’re looking at this passage from a physical and mortal perspective. God is spirit and immortal….and presently, we aren’t. At the Resurrection we will become spirit and immortal, but for now…..

Here, the Messiah is speaking about the future (after the 1,000 yr reign) when a NEW Jerusalem (Rev. 21) descends from Heaven. The mountain and the city He refers to won’t exist then because they will have passed away in a Big Bang. (2 Pete 3:10)

The last 4 chapters of Ezekiel describes the future Temple we will be worshipping in and the sacrifices we will offer to the Lord during the 1,000-yr reign. Zech 14:16-19 says that during the 1,000-yr reign, everyone will go to Jerusalem to worship Him during the Feast ofTabernacles. Those are just a few passages that defiantly negate the foolish idea that the Law and sacrifices have been abolished. And Acts 6 stands as a solid and true testimony that anyone who speaks against the Law or says the Messiah changed the Law is a false witness.

However, none of "these commandments" mentioned by Christ are actually from the law of Moses.

Actually, they all are in the Law given at Sinai. Every one of these commandments deal with what’s going on in our heart. Anyone can look righteous on the outside and fool his fellow brethren. But no one can fool God. These commandments expound upon and explain the correct way of “loving the Lord your God†and “loving your neighbor as yourself†in our hearts. This is the definition of the New Covenant given to us in Jer 31:31-34 where the Law is written on our hearts.

A false witness is someone who haven't witnessed the event but says as if he witnessed it irrespective of what he says.

You’re describing hearsayers and gossip-mongers, not a witness!

Acts 6 does not identify who a false witness is. It clearly says they "set up" false witnesses, which means, the witnesses were false and did not actually witness the event.

You can’t see the forest through the trees. It’s right there in black-and-white and you refuse to see it. One day, you will.

(John 1:14) And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us...

And that word sits in Genesis 1:1 in the Hebrew text between “God†and “created.†It’s called the “aleph-tav†in Hebrew (aka: alpha-omega in Greek) which means “strength of the cross.†The Messiah is the creator, He is the Law-giver at Sinai, and He swore by His Name that the Law will never depart from before Him. Grace and truth have been present since before the foundations of the earth. Just because you or anyone else refuses to believe, won’t make Him change His plan one iota.

 

[By Grace]

Define oxymoron: a combination of contradictory or incongruous words.... as in: cruel kindness or "a statement contrary to fact, but is a relative truth."

OK, I confused you. That was not my purpose. therefore let me parse and explicate my words:

Originally Posted by By Grace
I believe that Felix is posting a statement that is contrary to fact

Look at how he phrased it:

Originally Posted by felix
Saying Christ as God or Son of God or Messiah for Jews, itself is blasphemous for any non messianic Jew.

Jesus Christ is fully messiah, as well as Him being fully God. true

BUT for non-saved Jews, that is blasphemy, FROM THEIR PERSPECTIVE
So the way he wrote it, is contrary to fact because it is NOT wrong, or blasphemous to call Jesus Christ Messiah or God

Originally Posted by By Grace
but is a relative truth as it pertains to the accusers of Stephen.

Here I was using situational ethics as a model to state that from the vantage point of the non-believing Jews of the day. From their perspective (which is incorrect and which is why I used the term "relative") the proclamation of Steven of Jesus Christ was blasphemy, and for that "blasphemy" Steven was stoned becoming the first Christian martyr.

Thank you for asking for a clarification. Sometimes Felix is correct, but the ways he expresses things is sometimes confusing.

 

[felix]

You’re looking at this passage from a physical and mortal perspective. God is spirit and immortal….and presently, we aren’t. At the Resurrection we will become spirit and immortal, but for now…..

Here, the Messiah is speaking about the future (after the 1,000 yr reign) when a NEW Jerusalem (Rev. 21) descends from Heaven. The mountain and the city He refers to won’t exist then because they will have passed away in a Big Bang. (2 Pete 3:10)

The last 4 chapters of Ezekiel describes the future Temple we will be worshipping in and the sacrifices we will offer to the Lord during the 1,000-yr reign. Zech 14:16-19 says that during the 1,000-yr reign, everyone will go to Jerusalem to worship Him during the Feast ofTabernacles. Those are just a few passages that defiantly negate the foolish idea that the Law and sacrifices have been abolished. And Acts 6 stands as a solid and true testimony that anyone who speaks against the Law or says the Messiah changed the Law is a false witness.

I am exhausted and not sure if you are aware of the old vs new covenant differences. If you are interested here is a tabulation of it. http://www.churchsw.org/old-covenant-vs-new-covenant

So, shall you will die in the New Jerusalem according to the old covenant, because "death" exists as per Old Covenant. However, we believe in a New Jerusalem where death does not exist according to new covenant revealed to John.
Go through the list in the link which has other differences including priesthood where a change is required etc.

Actually, they all are in the Law given at Sinai. Every one of these commandments deal with what’s going on in our heart. Anyone can look righteous on the outside and fool his fellow brethren. But no one can fool God. These commandments expound upon and explain the correct way of “loving the Lord your God” and “loving your neighbor as yourself” in our hearts. This is the definition of the New Covenant given to us in Jer 31:31-34 where the Law is written on our hearts.

You’re describing hearsayers and gossip-mongers, not a witness!

You can’t see the forest through the trees. It’s right there in black-and-white and you refuse to see it. One day, you will.

And that word sits in Genesis 1:1 in the Hebrew text between “God” and “created.” It’s called the “aleph-tav” in Hebrew (aka: alpha-omega in Greek) which means “strength of the cross.” The Messiah is the creator, He is the Law-giver at Sinai, and He swore by His Name that the Law will never depart from before Him. Grace and truth have been present since before the foundations of the earth. Just because you or anyone else refuses to believe, won’t make Him change His plan one iota.

So, why is a new covenant required when the old covenant already covers everything? Paul calls the old Covenant "Faulty and obsolete" and Peter acknowledges the wisdom of Paul.

No one is saying law will completely vanish away because it is from God, except the fact we are not under it. Why the hell should I even follow the law when it is not given to me nor to my forefathers and none of my forefathers were salves in Egypt and even if I follow the law, I have no inheritance. So, I have no reason to follow the law!

Are you a Jew and circumcised? What makes you think the law is even applicable to you?

Just to add, none of the points I mentioned from sermon on the mount is not from the law. If you think so, let me know where it is.
Esp. Love your enemy, show your other cheek when someone hits another.

If it is in the law, David would have shown his head to be slain and beheaded not the other way round.

 

[nmwings]

Here I was using situational ethics as a model to state that from the vantage point of the non-believing Jews of the day. From their perspective (which is incorrect and which is why I used the term "relative") the proclamation of Steven of Jesus Christ was blasphemy, and for that"blasphemy" Steven was stoned becoming the first Christian martyr.

Ok, I’ll buy that explanation!

But Steven wasn’t stoned for blasphemy. They stoned him because he correctly accused them of 4 things:

1- they were just like their fathers in being stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart
2- they were just like their fathers in refusing the Holy Spirit
3- they were just like their fathers by seeking to kill the prophets sent by God
4- they were just like their fathers by not obeying the Law
See Acts 7:51-53

 

[nmwings]

It never ceases to amaze me how so many people are “willingly ignorant†(dumb on purpose.) Instead of reading what the Lord actually says, men are so lazy they prefer to listen to and follow the teachings of other men.

Felix, I feel our conversation has become a waste of time (for me, anyway.) I have given evidence in the Scripture on several points..... you refuse to even look at the Scripture.....and then you want to argue! Such is typical of one who relies on the interpretations of men who tell them things they want to hear. But when someone comes along pointing out Scripture that contradicts their theology, they either pretend it isn’t there or argue that they’re somehow “special†and it doesn’t apply to them. That's being "dumb on purpose."


Before I bid you farewell, I’ll address this….

Why the hell should I even follow the law when it is not given to me nor to my forefathers and none of my forefathers were salves in Egypt…..

Paul tells the Gentiles in Corinth that because they are now believers, they need to understand that indeed, their fathers were slaves in Egypt and that God delivered you (Felix) out with them (1 Cor 10:1-4.) Moses says that this covenant wasn’t made with just those who were there that day, but was also made with those who weren’t there that day. (Deut 29:14-15)

…..and even if I follow the law, I have no inheritance.

Your inheritance comes through Abraham, not Moses. Moses (the son of Levi, the son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham) receives the same inheritance as we do: the inheritance of Messiah.

So, I have no reason to follow the law!

Obedience proves love. (Actions are always louder than words.) "If you love Me (prove it!) obey My commandments."

 

[seagullplayer]

Just wondering, there's so many "new age" preachers and churches that don't exactly line up with scripture and its perfectly acceptable to many. I mysel have recently gone through a church split due to a "revival" that wasn't much of a revival at all. With this revival came a whole lot of things.. Violent manifestations and Off the wall teachings. One famous preacher came to our town and many people were deceived by his teachings- he even mentioned that he himself had spoke with the apostle Paul which means he spoke to a dead man which means he is a spiritist involved on necromancy, many people bragged about him owning private jets, he has also admitted to being involved with a group that has ties to freemasonry, I could go on forever about this but my point is WHY is this stuff accepted? Why do so many Christian except false teachings and teachers? This is so disturbing where is the discernment today I pray for these false teachers and the people who are so deceived by them. You never know of the teachers themselves are deceived or if they have another agenda but we should pray for them all the same

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2 Timothy 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Jude 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
Jude 1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
Jude 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
Jude 1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

 

[felix]

Paul tells the Gentiles in Corinth that because they are now believers, they need to understand that indeed, their fathers were slaves in Egypt and that God delivered you (Felix) out with them (1 Cor 10:1-4.) Moses says that this covenant wasn’t made with just those who were there that day, but was also made with those who weren’t there that day. (Deut 29:14-15)

(Rom 2:14) for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
(Rom 2:15) who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves [their] thoughts accusing or else excusing [them])

Also, Corinth is a combination of Greeks and Jews. He had addressed to both and individually. If 1 Cor 10:1-4 means what you say, then he contradicts himself through Rom 2:14-15.

Your inheritance comes through Abraham, not Moses. Moses (the son of Levi, the son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham) receives the same inheritance as we do: the inheritance of Messiah.

(Gen 17:10) This [is] My covenant which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: Every male child among you shall be circumcised;
(Gen 17:11) and you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me and you.
(Gen 17:12) He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised, every male child in your generations, he who is born in your house or bought with money from any foreigner who is not your descendant.
(Gen 17:13) He who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money must be circumcised, and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
(Gen 17:14) And the uncircumcised male child, who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant."

Obedience proves love. (Actions are always louder than words.) "If you love Me (prove it!) obey My commandments."

As I said, gentiles do not have the law.

 

[abide]

Just wondering, there's so many "new age" preachers and churches that don't exactly line up with scripture and its perfectly acceptable to many. I mysel have recently gone through a church split due to a "revival" that wasn't much of a revival at all. With this revival came a whole lot of things.. Violent manifestations and Off the wall teachings. One famous preacher came to our town and many people were deceived by his teachings- he even mentioned that he himself had spoke with the apostle Paul which means he spoke to a dead man which means he is a spiritist involved on necromancy, many people bragged about him owning private jets, he has also admitted to being involved with a group that has ties to freemasonry, I could go on forever about this but my point is WHY is this stuff accepted? Why do so many Christian except false teachings and teachers? This is so disturbing where is the discernment today I pray for these false teachers and the people who are so deceived by them. You never know of the teachers themselves are deceived or if they have another agenda but we should pray for them all the same

There is warning throughout scripture about deception. From the book of Genesis to the book of Revelation God has given warning. The devil is a deceiver and believers must pray for discernment.

Jude J-4
Acts 20:29
Rom. 16:18
2 Pet. 2:3
Titus 1:10

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Paul admonishes us to test all things.

Many will be deceived because too often people look at the person instead of looking to Jesus and the scriptures. The sad thing is that a DECEIVED PERSONS DOESN'T KNOW HE IS DECEIVED.


http://www.alan-vincent.com/falseteachers.htm

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~rseaborn/warnings_of_deception.html

http://www.whatsaiththescripture.com/Fellowship/What_Bible_False_Teachers.html
May God grant each of us the kind of discernment needed in these end times.