Discernment....

handy · Jan 23, 2011

I've been wanting to post this thread for a day or two now...but have been hesitant because of the way some threads are going.

However, I think I'd still like to discuss this, but hope we can do so in a fruitful manner. Hope we can, anyway...

The topic I'd like to discuss is how we are to discern who is a false teacher and who isn't.

What criteria should we use, what "measuring sticks" so to speak?

If someone makes claims about God, Father, Son or Holy Spirit, that goes against what we see in the Scriptures...is that enough to dismiss this person as a false teacher?

If not, if we can say that someone can make claims about God that we know from Scripture must be false, but boy the rest of their teaching is so doggone good they must be OK, where do we draw the line?

Jesus said that we would know false prophets by their fruit...what "fruit" was He speaking of? Is the fruit getting auditoriums that seat 20,000 filled "fruit" or is it something else? What is the "good" fruit...what is the "bad" fruit.

Again...I've hesitated for several days posting this because of some of the other threads. I don't want to argue the points, but perhaps have a meaningful discussion of how to discern a false teacher in an age that Jesus Himself said would be full of them.

When we can...let us use as much Scripture as possible.

A good text to start off with is Matthew 7:15-23

15"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16"You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
17"So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
18"A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19"Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20"So then, you will know them by their fruits.
21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

Truly folks, I don't want to get into naming specific high-profile preachers and teachers in this thread...this is more of a thread in trying to determine Biblical ground rules for discernment.

Gendou Ikari · Jan 23, 2011

Assuming scripture is inerrant, all of scripture must be interpreted through faulty human wisdom. Do you ever truly know if your interpretation of scripture is more valid than another person's interpretation of scripture (i.e. the one you are calling a false teacher)?

Adstar · Jan 23, 2011

handy said:
I've been wanting to post this thread for a day or two now...but have been hesitant because of the way some threads are going.

However, I think I'd still like to discuss this, but hope we can do so in a fruitful manner. Hope we can, anyway...

The topic I'd like to discuss is how we are to discern who is a false teacher and who isn't.

What criteria should we use, what "measuring sticks" so to speak?

If someone makes claims about God, Father, Son or Holy Spirit, that goes against what we see in the Scriptures...is that enough to dismiss this person as a false teacher?

If not, if we can say that someone can make claims about God that we know from Scripture must be false, but boy the rest of their teaching is so doggone good they must be OK, where do we draw the line?

You draw the line at the first false teaching. If someone is teaching something against the Word of God one can take their concerns with the right bible scriptures and discuss things with the teacher. If they can be won over to the truth all good and well. But if they cannot all their good teachings are not worth a pttiance. As the saying goes a little leaven spoils the loaf. Once you allow one false teaching in it will becoe for foundation of many more false teachings.

Jesus said that we would know false prophets by their fruit...what "fruit" was He speaking of? Is the fruit getting auditoriums that seat 20,000 filled "fruit" or is it something else? What is the "good" fruit...what is the "bad" fruit.

Bad fruit can be lack of love and it can be the false teaching it'self.

Again...I've hesitated for several days posting this because of some of the other threads. I don't want to argue the points, but perhaps have a meaningful discussion of how to discern a false teacher in an age that Jesus Himself said would be full of them.

You yourself have stated the best answer to finding out who is true and who is false you said:

"let us use as much Scripture as possible."

I totally agree with you lets use as much scripture as possable to measure what someone is teaching.

A good text to start off with is Matthew 7:15-23

15"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16"You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
17"So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
18"A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19"Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20"So then, you will know them by their fruits.
21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

Top scriptures there

Truly folks, I don't want to get into naming specific high-profile preachers and teachers in this thread...this is more of a thread in trying to determine Biblical ground rules for discernment.

I will have to add one more thing to the ground rule you have already pointed to.

one must have the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to be able to read and understans the true meaning of scriptures, only then can one precieve what is false teaching and what is true.

Blessings to you handy

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

WIP · Jan 23, 2011

Gendou Ikari said:
Assuming scripture is inerrant, all of scripture must be interpreted through faulty human wisdom. Do you ever truly know if your interpretation of scripture is more valid than another person's interpretation of scripture (i.e. the one you are calling a false teacher)?

With all due respect to Gendou Ikari, be careful of statements like this one, which are intended to plant seeds of doubt. Seek out trusted council and compare to the Word in its entire context.

Elijah674 · Jan 23, 2011

I see Mankind Eternally lost. Then God holds out hope for a way back.. which is CONDITIONAL from the start. Acts 5:32 (I see man needing from the fall to be reborn)

OK: That was number one, NO CONDITIONS = NO SALVATION. Now 'i' see Isa. 8:20 CLEARLY telling 'me' that there are two TESTS for any one having to be seen having [any Truth in them] if either is not UPHELD then Inspiration documents that it is because ther [IS NO LIGHT IN THEM].

First Test is the Eternal Covenant given by God Himself to the Universe. (Heb. 13:20 + Rev. 14:6 Eternal Gospel & seen still in Heavens Throne in Rev. 11:18-19. For any to teach that the Godhead has NO ETERNAL Heb. 13:20 COVENANT finds me quickly a Titus 3:9-11 Believer!

The Second test finds the Word of 'TESTIMONY'. I see it requiring both documentations of [CHRIST'S Isa. 8:20's Eternal WORD] but in the Inspired Testimony of what & how the Holy Spirit Inspired them to pen it. All 66 Books, yet still penned in their 'own' TESTIFIED WORDS OF TRUTH, in their own personal discriptive words of that Inspiration,
(such as 4 Gospels as we call them, by 4 different Holy men, that are not exactly carbon copies)

This is leaving the last test for mankind (us) to be the jury per/say as to understand the full PICTURE of the TESTIMONY. (and surely we are to be Holy Spirit LED if we will be! Rom. 8:14, & this is for doctrin as seen again in 2 Tim. 3 16) And NEVER can this second test overrule the First Test! They MUST ALL AGREE in the FINAL Gospel Picture's.... ETERNAL PLAN.

--Elijah

Gendou Ikari · Jan 23, 2011

WIP said:
With all due respect to Gendou Ikari, be careful of statements like this one, which are intended to plant seeds of doubt. Seek out trusted council and compare to the Word in its entire context.

It's more a call to humility than a call to doubt. That is, there are thousands of Christians around the world proclaiming that their interpretation of the truth is correct.

Theofilus · Jan 23, 2011

Adstar said:
You draw the line at the first false teaching. If someone is teaching something against the Word of God one can take their concerns with the right bible scriptures and discuss things with the teacher. If they can be won over to the truth all good and well. But if they cannot all their good teachings are not worth a pttiance. As the saying goes a little leaven spoils the loaf. Once you allow one false teaching in it will becoe for foundation of many more false teachings.

The first one? Are you sure about that? Are you 100% sure that all your doctrines are correct? According to what you're saying, if you are wrong on one point, then you are a false teacher.

Tailgunner · Jan 23, 2011

handy said:
What criteria should we use, what "measuring sticks" so to speak?

If someone makes claims about God, Father, Son or Holy Spirit, that goes against what we see in the Scriptures...is that enough to dismiss this person as a false teacher?

If not, if we can say that someone can make claims about God that we know from Scripture must be false, but boy the rest of their teaching is so doggone good they must be OK, where do we draw the line?

Handy, I really think we should do as the Bereans did...

10The brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so. (Acts 17:10-11, NASB)

Also, Paul warned against this very thing...

6I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
7which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
8But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
9As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
10For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ. (Galatians 1:6-10, NASB)

If someone preaches that which you know to be false because it is contradictory to the Bible, then, as Adstar mentioned, you must point it out, and if they will not change, they and their teaching must be rejected.

TG

Elijah674 · Jan 23, 2011

Theofilus said:
The first one? Are you sure about that? Are you 100% sure that all your doctrines are correct? According to what you're saying, if you are wrong on one point, then you are a false teacher.

Ones Work can be DOUBLE CHECKED by Psalm's 77:13's Truth. Each requirement inside of the court must be meant to be the Virgin Doctrine of the Godhead.

--Elijah

littlelight · Jan 23, 2011

handy

I think that the verses cited tell a person one thing to look for. The term ravenous wolves and you who practice lawlessness give one some clues.

They are feeding their own desires. If all we see of them is on TV and we cannot see how they live their lives then it sometimes cannot be determined by lifestyle so we have to compare their teachings with the Bible and our understanding of it. But even on TV without knowing them if I see a richly dressed, well bejeweled, immaculately groomed person I will not give ear to their teachings. To me that is indicative of a person that is feeding their own desires. There is nothing wrong with dressing well which can be done without being extravagant. A humble person knows that clothes or jewels do not add to the importance of a child of God. If a person is not humble how good is their understanding of Jesus.

farouk · Jan 23, 2011

littlelight said:
handy

I think that the verses cited tell a person one thing to look for. The term ravenous wolves and you who practice lawlessness give one some clues.

They are feeding their own desires. If all we see of them is on TV and we cannot see how they live their lives then it sometimes cannot be determined by lifestyle so we have to compare their teachings with the Bible and our understanding of it. But even on TV without knowing them if I see a richly dressed, well bejeweled, immaculately groomed person I will not give ear to their teachings. To me that is indicative of a person that is feeding their own desires. There is nothing wrong with dressing well which can be done without being extravagant. A humble person knows that clothes or jewels do not add to the importance of a child of God. If a person is not humble how good is their understanding of Jesus.

littlelight:

I think I agree, yes.

Re. bejeweled, I don't see anything wrong with little jewels, eg in a lady's (or man's...) ears.

But the whole emphasis of someone demeanor and deportment should be with the inward and spiritual, in a humble and sober spirit, and consistent with sound, Biblical doctrine.

Sparkey · Jan 23, 2011

Greetings Handy,

Self-Appointed Teachers
<O:pJesus, Isaiah and Ezekiel said that false teachers paid homage with their lips but didn’t act on the truth, "Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near [me] with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men." Isa 29:13 KJV

[Ye] hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, "This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with [their] lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men." Mat 15:7-9 KJV

Isaiah spoke of these as ones whose turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay. False teachers turn things upside down, but do so ‘lovingly’, giving the appearance of right to the doctrines they promote. They are the teachings and doctrines of men and not God. "Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?" - Isaiah 29:16 KJV

"... [they] that make a man an offender for a word, and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate, and turn aside the just for a thing of nought." - Isaiah 29:20-21 KJV

False teachers want the appearance of righteous authority as they argue against the just. They who teach the commandments of men will argue against the righteous and paint him to be a thing of offense. They lay snares (in forum speak, that's called "trolling"). Consider how they give high priority to an inconsequential thing, turning aside the just “for a thing of naught.

Ezekiel tells of what he was shown of these:

It is the litany of the false who say, "Come, I pray you, and hear what is the word that cometh forth from the LORD. And they come unto thee as the people cometh, and they sit before thee [as] my people, and they hear thy words, but they will not do them: for with their mouth they shew much love, [but] their heart goeth after their covetousness. And, lo, thou [art] unto them as a very lovely song of one that hath a pleasant voice, and can play well on an instrument: for they hear thy words, but they do them not." - Ezekiel 33:30-32 KJV

Interesting how they approach falsehood, saying, "Come, I pray you, and hear what is the word that cometh forth from the LORD." Even more interesting would be the insight to how they consider the Word of Truth like a pretty song.

Recall though, the words of John, the Beloved, "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. ... For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever." - 1 John 2:4-6, 16-17 KJV

Understanding is to depart evil.

Sparkey · Jan 24, 2011

It's several hours since the post below, I was just watching a movie, a western as a thought came. In 1885 New Mexico, a frontier medicine woman formed an uneasy alliance with her estranged father when her daughter was kidnapped by an Apache. The woman is portrayed a God-fearing woman who would not turn her back on a person in need. During one of the early scenes she was backed up in her demand that Tommy Lee Jones (who played her father) git off'n her land. The question, "Was she a false teacher?" came to mind.

There was the appearance of goodness there. She tended the poor. She had "good moral values" and made sure that her children didn't see her boyfriend enter her bedroom and told him, "We'll have to be very quiet..." It was an almost harmless scene as far as Hollywood movies go, fading to black almost immediately. Then came the question, "What was the God-fearing frontier woman teaching her children?"

Can we give what we do not have? Is it possible to teach love when we only profess to love? That is the sort of question that I think is at the heart of your post. How do we discern? It is for me to judge myself and deal with those things that I see my own self doing. The other? I can not see it. If a 'false teacher' spoke and came with powerful deception, how would I see or tell?

When we consider doctrine it is good to understand that there are principles and doctrines and teachings that have been taught fromt he beginning. One of the things that we consider would be, "Is this some new thing?" Or was it established from beginning, revealed by the prophets, exemplified by Jesus then revealed and explained to the apostles? Those who leave sound doctrine do so for a reason. I'm unsure how the sin of the frontier woman relates exactly to this discussion except that was what I was thinking about while watching.

Thought I'd drop by and share. Seems to me that obedience and acting on the word of God is the pivot point between true teachers and false. I have to stretch to get that, maybe you have a better way of saying it?

~Sparrow

Strangelove · Jan 24, 2011

I think an important part of discerning a false teacher is not just what they DO say but what they DONT say also.

How often does your pastor talk about Justification by Faith alone?

How often does your pastor talk about SIN and REPENTANCE?

How often does your pastor talk about seperation from those with doctrinal error?

How often does your pastor talk about JUDGEMENT and Eternal damnation?

How often does your pastor talk about FALSE TEACHERS?

How often does your pastor talk about the true meaning behind Christs sacrifice on the Cross (substitutionary atonement)?

Do they minimize these issues or leave them out entirely?

Heres a good audio sermon on the subject:

How to Recognize False Teachers

Elijah674 · Jan 24, 2011

Strangelove said:
I think an important part of discerning a false teacher is not just what they DO say but what they DONT say also.

How often does your pastor talk about Justification by Faith alone?

How often does your pastor talk about SIN and REPENTANCE?

How often does your pastor talk about seperation from those with doctrinal error?

How often does your pastor talk about JUDGEMENT and Eternal damnation?

How often does your pastor talk about FALSE TEACHERS?

How often does your pastor talk about the true meaning behind Christs sacrifice on the Cross (substitutionary atonement)?

Do they minimize these issues or leave them out entirely?

Heres a good audio sermon on the subject:

How to Recognize False Teachers

I only read your remarks. Excellent! Welcome back. There is one more to add as I see it? and that is about the testimony side of doctrinal testings? see in Isa. 8:20. Who finds any minister of today himself knowing (let alone teaching it) the difference between these two testings? When I ask about TESTIMONY it seems that one would need this from ALL 66 Books. (Matt. 4:4 + 2 Tim. 3:16)

'To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.'

--Elijah

Sparkey · Jan 24, 2011

As someone said earlier, â€œFalse Teachers can be known by their teaching.â€ Consider how the Israelites wanted kings and not judges over them. They wanted â€œmighty menâ€ who would lead the nation. God objected but did not overrule their choice, instead He cautioned them, that the men they had as kings would take their best from them, their provisions and their children.

When we look at a shepherd there isnâ€™t much glory there. Who ever heard of a bossy shepherd? â€œHey, EWE!â€ Check out my shepherdâ€™s crook! Thatâ€™s what yer gonna git if you donâ€™t obey!â€ No, the lowly shepherd cares for his sheep and is content to live with them in modest surroundings; he lays down on the ground with them to become a door and protect those whom he loves. I like recalling Johnâ€™s advice, â€œLittle children, those who do good are good.â€

Compare the needs and desires of kings (or man-appointed leaders) to those of shepherds (ordained of God). Consider â€œthe doctrines of menâ€.

â€¢ â€œGodliness is gain.â€ We are blessed because look how much weâ€™ve grown (or rather, how much our bank accounts have grown).
â€¢ Governments within churches oftentimes are political and power-based. â€œI am the vicar of Christâ€.
â€¢ Guilt-tithes.

Recall the reaction of Davidâ€™s wife when she saw the king garbed in priestly robes and dancing before the Lord. It seems that today all too often our leaders are too overly concerned with image to enjoy true joy in the Lord. What does that teach us? Appearance is more important than heart? Can they give what they donâ€™t have?

Issues such as â€œO.S.A.S.â€ and Calvinistic doctrines can be readily spotted but this isnâ€™t my thought about what false teachers and false teaching centers on. More-so the angel of light who has not cleaned the inside of the cup, but the outside is spotless. The ones who have taken the â€œBread of Lifeâ€ out of our life and made our gatherings more a social event than worshipful conversation between believers and the God in their Midst. The subtle message that God does not care is being taught. Heâ€™s out of reach and too distant. Nothing could be further from the truth. Can we as flesh become like Jesus in truth? How?

We know how we learn. It is a simple matter of seeing somebody does it then trying it yourself. When our leaders refuse to listen to God and ACT, and then make up for it with appearance we follow. Of course Paul and Peter and Jude and the others spoke of many doctrines to look out for denying that Jesus came in the flesh was the paramount issue and fulcrum. With that in mind, what doctrines deny his coming in the flesh? Why did God require this for our salvation? Jesus, the Word of God, became lower than the angels.

handy · Jan 24, 2011

Gendou Ikari said:
Assuming scripture is inerrant, all of scripture must be interpreted through faulty human wisdom. Do you ever truly know if your interpretation of scripture is more valid than another person's interpretation of scripture (i.e. the one you are calling a false teacher)?

Gendou, this is at the heart of this thread, how can we know if our interpretation is valid and another's is not.

Since we are indeed assuming that scripture is inerrant, and scripture repeatedly records warnings of false prophets and false teachers, surely there is some kind of rubric we can apply to the prophets and teachers of our day in order to weed out the bad and draw near to that which is good.

I do agree with the fact that we need to be as the Bereans and examine all teaching by the Scriptures. However, it is the point at which we must reject someone as false that I'm curious about...what things fall into the realm of "agree to disagree" and not part company over and what things are a "I don't care what else you say that is true, if you teach that you're outta here!"

Sparkey · Jan 24, 2011

Handy, we'd like to hear your thoughts on the subject too.

Oftentimes when I discuss stuff I need ideas that are not my own to lead me into a different direction or something I hadn't considered. Perhaps they supply contrast or help give substance to ideas I've considered but don't know how to say yet.

So, let's have it, please? What does Handy think about false teachings and at what point are they "I ain't listening to this no more..."? I've heard that we are not to so much as say "Godspeed" to some. I've also been taught that being "standoffish" is rude. I'm interested in the line as well. :thumbsup

~Sparrow

handy · Jan 24, 2011

Well, seriously I do not want this thread to become another diatribe against some well known people nor in support of others...but, to just focus on certain teachings...

For me, I do part company right away with anyone who seriously puts forth the idea of lizard people. Just am not going to listen to anything after that.

After that...

I stop listening if someone states that Jesus isn't God. I know that there are some who claim to be Christian that deny the deity of Christ, but the definition of a Christian is someone who believes in Christ and if they don't believe in Christ as the Bible teaches Him to be (and the Scriptures clearly teach that Jesus is God) then they are not a true believer.

I also stop listening if anyone claims that I am a god or claims that God is the biggest failure in the universe.

These are some of the things that cause me, Dora, to stop listening.

But, they are also highly subjective. I know some here on this board, believers just like me, who do support those who teach these things.

Hence the question, the desire for some kind of standard to apply.

reba · Jan 24, 2011

Knowing Scripture would be the bases for discernment. Problem is we all think WE know Scripture.

It is simple to use The Comandments for a discering line. Our lifes are not structured within the wall to the Ten.

The NT guide i see would most likely be the Matt 5

How do our teachers match up to the Words of Jesus? His example?

Tired of all the political strife and infighting?

Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need

Ever read the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ?

Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?

Have questions about the Christian faith?

How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?

Focus on the Family

Discernment....

Gendou Ikari

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Elijah674

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Theofilus

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