Bible Study Discrepancy with the Holy Spirit - (Surely Not)?

[cyberjosh]

If we are to apply the truths of belief & faith (and all it entails) as Jesus presented it in the Gospels to us and tie it with the theology of the Epistles then we must be able to see parallels in principles of faith, perseverance, salvation, and the Holy Spirit's role in it. And we all know that the Gospels don't present useless doctrine.

Now, the disciples had to endure in belief without falling away first to receive the Holy Spirit, as Jesus said "concerning the Holy Spirit, whom those believing [continuing belief] in Him would receive, for the Holy Spirit was not yet given" (John 7:39). This would mean that even if they had belief in Jesus (which Jesus said will bring about eternal life - salvation) that if they didn't persevere/continue in it (keep his commandments) that they could fall from it (why Jesus said "he who endures to the end shall be saved"), and fail to receive the Holy Spirit (as some of the disciples who fell away from Jesus in John 6).
When Jesus gave a later promise of the Holy Spirit to his 12 disciples he promised to send "The Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father" which he said "would testify of Me", and also told them, "and you also will bear witness" on the basis that "you have been with Me from the beginning" (John 15:26-27). He gave a similar explanation of his basis for promising something to them at the Last Supper when he promised that they would be with him in his kingdom and judge the 12 tribes of Israel saying "you are those who have stood by Me in My trials" (Luke 22:28). But if the disciples had to first endure trials of their faith and belief before they received the Holy Spirit and the promise of the kingdom how could we possibly parallel that to our situation post-Calvary, who seemingly receive the Holy Spirit immediately upon confession of Jesus as Lord and confession of sins unto repentance? Why did Jesus wait to see their perseverance before committing the promises to them while those who are born again immediately receive the Holy Spirit as a seal and promise of the future kingdom?

This is a crucial question which must be answered. Please respond and evaluate this. If you think you can tackle this question with a firm Systematic Theological approach please evaluate this argument in a much larger context which I have posted.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

Is anyone willing to evaluate this?

Solo, Jgredline, golfjack, ...anyone?

 

[golfjack]

reply

Josh, I don't exactly what you are getting at. Are you trying to riightly diviide the Word? You would do well if you did. Nobody could be saved until Jesus was glorified. There were some disciples that left. So, they did not continue in Faith. Remember, it takes the Holy Spirit to convict sinners. While Jesus was on earth, Jesus was the only who had the Holy Spirit, and that is when He prayed to the Father. He needed the Spirit to heal and perform miracles. The Apostles couldn't do that until they received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit at Pentacost. This is when authority, the anointing was handed to them, and anyone who is saved has the same authority.

Therefore, we know the Bible is not in contradiction between the Gospels and Epistles. Many times when Jesus spoke, he was under the Law. He now speaks through the Holy Spirit and sits at the right hand of the Father. What Paul said is true and what Jesus said is true.

I don't know if this is the comment that you wanted, but this is how I see it.



May God bless, Golfjack
.

 

[jgredline]

Josh
I really don't understand what your trying to say either....
much of what you wrote does not make sense to me....It would be easier if you simply asked a question or questions...Plural

 

[cyberjosh]

Josh, I don't exactly what you are getting at. Are you trying to riightly diviide the Word? You would do well if you did.

Don't worry I do not have any insincere motives in posting this. And remember I said, "And we all know that the Gospels don't present useless doctrine" in order to make that clear. I wouldn't dismiss Jesus' teachings.

First off I would never claim that the Bible contradicts itself, because that is impossible. I gave this thread its title to attract people and force them to find a reconcilliation (or face the consequences of that liberal theology [of claiming the Bible has a contradiction] - because there has to be a reconcilliation) and I am seeking for it (I want to understand God's Word). But out of the 2 or three ways I see of reconciling it they all have their individual interperative consequences which are crucial if we are to understand how to apply Jesus word to us post-Calvary. Some pastors and lay Christians sometimes apply things from the Gospel that apply to a temporal position (when the disciples had not yet recieved the Spirit) to us today and sometimes weaken doctrine (unless the exception/alternate interpretation presented in the OP is correct) because of it by pointing out the disciples failure at certain points (and dangerously so - like Peter denying Jesus [for example] - because today denying Jesus means him denying us also) by applying it to Christians. And it seems that in the Gospels (at least in Matthew) we see Jesus' presentation of salvation primarily on perseverance, "He who endures to the end shall be saved" and we see example of disciples who fell away from Jesus in John chapter 6, but to those who continued with Jesus he commited the promises (which I elaborated on in my OP above).

I'm having a difficult time reconciling this with the Epistles (although I know there must be one) because the emphasis seems backwards - unless of course one can lose their salvation (thus why Jesus was so adamant on perseverance - and a possibility I'm open to if it can be proven). Nonetheless, I am not taking theological positions right now and am striving to remain neutral until a decisive Scriptural answer can be given. You have to look at systematic theology and not confine your doctrine to a few verses if you seek to be consistant. That is what I strive to be above all (consistant, that is) so that I do divide the Word of God correctly.

I hope now that you can see what I am asking you to evaluate: how to reconcile the theme of "perseverance first" (despite the weak constant stumbling the disciples did) then salvation & promises (noted in OP) afterwards for enduring, with the Epistles presentation of "first believing" and recieving salvation (by faith), while having inner strength given to us by the Holy Spirit to peresevere post-calvary. This is why I asked if we are in as delicate a position as the Disciples. Because if we are I believe (unless my reasoning is mistaken) that the implication of that would be that we could lose our salvation. That is why I think this is so important. And not only that, but also for trying to find out how to persevere as Jesus desires us to. I want to do the Christian life right so I must ask these necessary questions.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

Josh
I really don't understand what your trying to say either....
much of what you wrote does not make sense to me....It would be easier if you simply asked a question or questions...Plural

I hope my response to golfjack answers your question as well, because I respect your opinion and I know you have a good base in the Bible. And you should know that I value Scripture and would never doubt it. I merely am seeking to discover at all costs the truth of Scripture so that I can apply it, so I must sometimes ask some difficult questions in order to force the truth to surface by showing consequences of certain lines of thought and certain doctrines (like how I've seen you test people on their doctrine - a good thing) . Some people don't think their doctrines out all the way to the end and thus miss its implications. I don't like leaving things hanging like that. So I hope with my two posts I have given above (the OP and my response to golfjack) that you can see what I am looking for and respond accordingly from Scripture.

Thanks & God Bless,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

Nobody could be saved until Jesus was glorified.

I agree. I wonder then, though, if some of Jesus commands to persevere in order to recieve salvation ("he who endures to the end shall be saved") were temporal though. Because if the Disciples had abandoned him like the false diciples in John 6:66 before Jesus atoned for our sins & was glorified then they would have failed to attain the end of their faith (see why I asked how it could be parallel to our situation? - because it isn't entirely - my point in the OP). That is a major implication if that Scripture was temporal in nature, but if not (and the Scripture applies today - a major possibility) then is there more parallel between us and the Disciple's delicate position then we thought? But then one could argue that we have the current strength of the Holy Spirit when the Disciples didn't at the time. See where the arguement gets sticky and hard to evaluate? Both sides have major implications.

I'm looking for you guys to evaluate this and give me a satisfactory, reconcilliary answer from Scripture.

 

[cyberjosh]

Jgredline, I wanted to bring to your attention the following exchange golfjack and I had in my other thread in the Apologetics area because it may clarify my intentions for this study to you.

[quote:05ff3]Josh, It seems to me that you are getting into legalistic things about salvation. It's quite simple to me and that is one must be born again aznd use Romans 10:9-10 to become a Christian. As you probably know, I believe the only way one can lose salvation is to publically deny Christ after they are saved and fulfill the conditions of Hebrews 6:4-6.

That is a position I am willing to accept if it can be scripturally proven. That is why I asked all those systematic questions in the other thread I've created in the Bible Discussion area. I would love to just simply believe that and put my mind at ease but I'm seeing areas of Scripture that are very difficult to reconcile concerning salvation and whether you are able to lose it or not - and it is aggravating me to death because I know that there must be a reconcilliation, but I have to pay dues to all of Scripture. Thus my systematic study in the other thread.

I hope you see my sincerity in this issue. And I do not desire to be legalistic in the least. So if you can help me figure out what is bugging me so much in the other thread I would much appreciate it.

God Bless,

~Josh[/quote:05ff3]

 

[cyberjosh]

I'll give posting a rest for a while since I've left you with 4 posts already to chew on. I hope you read all of them. I believe this to be a very important topic, and as I said I cannot put my mind at ease until i get an answer, it rather torturous not knowing what to believe based on Scripture. I would appreciate any reconciliation possible that is consistant.

Thanks.

God Bless,

~Joshua

 

[jgredline]

Don't worry I do not have any insincere motives in posting this. And remember I said, "And we all know that the Gospels don't present useless doctrine" in order to make that clear. I wouldn't dismiss Jesus' teachings.

First off I would never claim that the Bible contradicts itself, because that is impossible. I gave this thread its title to attract people and force them to find a reconcilliation (or face the consequences of that liberal theology [of claiming the Bible has a contradiction] - because there has to be a reconcilliation) and I am seeking for it (I want to understand God's Word). But out of the 2 or three ways I see of reconciling it they all have their individual interperative consequences which are crucial if we are to understand how to apply Jesus word to us post-Calvary. Some pastors and lay Christians sometimes apply things from the Gospel that apply to a temporal position (when the disciples had not yet recieved the Spirit) to us today and sometimes weaken doctrine (unless the exception/alternate interpretation presented in the OP is correct) because of it by pointing out the disciples failure at certain points (and dangerously so - like Peter denying Jesus [for example] - because today denying Jesus means him denying us also) by applying it to Christians. And it seems that in the Gospels (at least in Matthew) we see Jesus' presentation of salvation primarily on perseverance, "He who endures to the end shall be saved" and we see example of disciples who fell away from Jesus in John chapter 6, but to those who continued with Jesus he commited the promises (which I elaborated on in my OP above).

I'm having a difficult time reconciling this with the Epistles (although I know there must be one) because the emphasis seems backwards - unless of course one can lose their salvation (thus why Jesus was so adamant on perseverance - and a possibility I'm open to if it can be proven). Nonetheless, I am not taking theological positions right now and am striving to remain neutral until a decisive Scriptural answer can be given. You have to look at systematic theology and not confine your doctrine to a few verses if you seek to be consistant. That is what I strive to be above all (consistant, that is) so that I do divide the Word of God correctly.

I hope now that you can see what I am asking you to evaluate: how to reconcile the theme of "perseverance first" (despite the weak constant stumbling the disciples did) then salvation & promises (noted in OP) afterwards for enduring, with the Epistles presentation of "first believing" and recieving salvation (by faith), while having inner strength given to us by the Holy Spirit to peresevere post-calvary. This is why I asked if we are in as delicate a position as the Disciples. Because if we are I believe (unless my reasoning is mistaken) that the implication of that would be that we could lose our salvation. That is why I think this is so important. And not only that, but also for trying to find out how to persevere as Jesus desires us to. I want to do the Christian life right so I must ask these necessary questions.

God Bless,

~Josh

Josh
I don't have a lot of time right now, but in short Jack was right in a lot of what he said...I will spend some time at lunch tomorrow and see if I can't put it together for you....A few things to consider...

During Jesus Ministry the Holy Spirit was only given to a few, eg John the baptist.....None of the disciples had the Holy Spirit...Why this is important and this is the Key I believe to what your after is simply This....''Justification''...When we are ''truly'' Born Again we are justified....Justified is the exact opposite of condemnation... Justified simply means that we are ''sealed'' with the Holy Spirit....To Be justified is like Cart Blanch and Jesus name is on the card...This is what the first 9 Chapters of Romans is all about.....Now when one is born again they receive the Holy Spirit, but are ''NOT'' filled with the Holy Spirit...That usually comes later although in some cases it can happen at the same time....All of which is supported by Scripture...I will put it together for you tomorrow or of you have specific questions ask them.....
Blessings Josh
Javier

 

[cyberjosh]

I will put it together for you tomorrow or of you have specific questions ask them.....

Ok a few straight forward questions (to be viewed in light of my point in the OP):

1. Are we in as delicate a position as the disciples during Jesus' ministry (since they didn't have the Spirit, yet we do)?

2A.If so then did Jesus' teaching of "he who endures to the end shall be saved" refer to the temporal/transitory period where the Disciples could fall away from following Jesus and fail to recieve the Spirit?

2B. If not then why did Jesus wait to give them the promises in light of their perseverance (detailed in OP)?

3. And most importantly what lesson can we draw from these conclusions? If the disciple's situation does not directly parallel ours then we must be careful when we preach specific things about the disciples time when they following Jesus (we wouldn't want to falsely teach that one can deny Jesus and then be restored like Peter - unless we preached some form of Arminianism in which you can be saved, lose your salvation, and be saved again upon a whim - Do you see now the need for practical application and a proper conclusion?)

P.S. Another way to sum up my inquiry is what I told TanNinety in my other thread: "What I was really wondering was if the presence of the Holy Spirit post-calvary changed anything. I mean we really equate salvation with the regeneration and indwelling of the Holy Spirit so I was wondering how we can bridge the lines between them (when they didn't have the Spirit) and us. Because I think the Holy Spirit gives us more power to overcome things than the disciples often had avaiable to them (Peter falling away for example - would that have happened if Peter had the Spirit in him?). Do you agree? Do you see my point? "

I look forward to your input. Thanks.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

Many times when Jesus spoke, he was under the Law.

I think I can agree with that. So then would this not qualify what I suggested earlier about the "he who endures to the end shall be saved" might have been temporal (during a period "under law")? You are right that what Paul said is true and so is Jesus', even if under different circumstances, so what you have just said may be a reconcilliation (though not of necessity the correct one) if its implication is that not every thing that Jesus said (while under law) applies to us now under Grace. That seems to be the consequence of that line of thought, and was one of my original alternative options for interpretation given in my OP.

And if that is true we must be very careful from now on to not directly parallel parables and such directly with the Christian life (the seed and sower for example - not to mention the interpretation on that parable is as varied as the colors of the rainbow in the first place). Yet I see many Bible commentators who do apply it to a Christian vs. non-Christian paradigm. Are they justified in doing this? I ask this sincerely.

I await your reply.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[mutzrein]

Cyber - just came across your thread - I've been offline for a couple weeks until a day or so go.

I'm having a little difficulty getting the gist of what you are saying so patience please.

A quick question. What is your understanding of the event that is referred to as being 'born again'?

 

[cyberjosh]

Hello Mutz, I will answer your question but please keep in mind that primarily I am looking to see what the Gospels by themselves say about salvation and to see if there are any elements or themes that are somewhat different in the Gospels when compared to the Epistles. I obviously do not doubt any of the Bible's teaching and am not attempting to push any heretical doctrine, I am merely wanting to preform exegesis on the text and examine its theology in context of the Gospels. I take it you know that I have a larger thread which this arguement came from. It might help if you looked there first if you haven't to see a further clarification of my views/questions here. The link is supplied at the bottom of my OP.

A quick question. What is your understanding of the event that is referred to as being 'born again'?

Being born again is a gracious work of the Holy Spirit upon belief and confession of our Lord Jesus Christ in which we are regenerated, buried in baptism (crucified) with Christ and arisen as a new nature, and we are then priveliged with the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit who effects our once-and-for-all justification and works in us daily to effect our sanctification in which we must co-operate if we are to persevere and not grieve the Holy Spirit. I suppose I call this entire process salvation (which has past, present, and future senses in the Bible). But the Holy Spirit is central in all of this and he gives us power (dunamis) from God to overcome and secures the believer by faith (so I'm wondering how such a central peice in salvation can be absent in the Gospels and yet us be able to parallel our situation to the disciples). That is it in an nutshell.

P.S. Read my last post to jgredline above. I gave some very specific and straight-forward questions for him.

 

[cyberjosh]

I feel the urge to speak my mind presently. I notice that all of of you have been very careful in your approach of adressing this issue and even of myself thus far, and I appreciate that, because you are trying to probe the issue before you jump into it so you can understand what I am looking for, and well you should. However I honestly feel like a boy who has found a speck of gold that was not previously seen in an old mine which has not been used for a long time, and who has presented it to the towns-people who sort of stay their distance away wondering if the boy is crazy or not, reluctant to approach. I honestly think I'm on to something that not many people look at. The silence of commentaries on comparitive the issues I am looking at are telling if not annoying (and the ones that do go into any level of depth acknowledge something called "tension" in Biblical exegesis), and the rarity of the study of such a topic in depth by any church leaves it hanging wide open and largely unaddressed. I hope someone can see what I'm trying to present here and why I'm seeking a reconcilliary answer because If I am to be able to systematically defend and explain my faith from the inspired, infallible Word of God and be ready to give a defense for the hope that is in me I must understand the most intricate doctrines of the Word of God. Please help me probe this to its depth so I can come away with a satisfactory answer.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

During Jesus Ministry the Holy Spirit was only given to a few, eg John the baptist.....None of the disciples had the Holy Spirit...Why this is important and this is the Key I believe to what your after is simply This....''Justification''...When we are ''truly'' Born Again we are justified....Justified is the exact opposite of condemnation... Justified simply means that we are ''sealed'' with the Holy Spirit....To Be justified is like Cart Blanch and Jesus name is on the card...This is what the first 9 Chapters of Romans is all about.....Now when one is born again they receive the Holy Spirit, but are ''NOT'' filled with the Holy Spirit...That usually comes later although in some cases it can happen at the same time....All of which is supported by Scripture...I will put it together for you tomorrow or of you have specific questions ask them.....

Ok with me trying to parallel this between our situation and the Disciple's situation while walking with Jesus I draw the following conclusions and would like to ask certain questions:

1. If justification is the central issue with having the Holy Spirit, did the disciples in any way have a present sense of justification when walking with Jesus (or a definate assurance of it)? Does their election by Jesus effect this in anyway?

2. What purpose was the account of the disciples struggles given for if it does not prefigure in anyway the struggles of later Christians post-calvary? Could Jesus trying to help them in their struggles be a type or parallel prefigurement of the Holy Spirit trying to help us from stumbling now? But if it is then is is also possible to fall away from the Holy Spirit as some disciples fell away from Jesus?

 

[golfjack]

reply

Josh, I think we must look at the ministry of the Holy Spirit to explain some things.

Let's look at John 14:15-17: I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper ( v. 16). Parakletos is the greek word used four times in the Gospel of John, and is translated Helper. The word means one call3ed alongside, to take the place of Jesus. The Lord Jesus was the first helper sent by the Father; He will give you another Helper ( v. 16). Now the Father would give the diisciples the Holy Spirit ( Parclete) to help them and all believers, to be with them in the absence of Christ. THe disciples were sorrowing because Jesus told them that He would go away, and they could not go with Him then. He said, Let not your heart be troubled.... I go to prepare a place for you....I will come again and receive you to myself; that where I am, there you may be also ( John 14:1-3).

1. The Helper will abide with you forever...and will be iin you . Let this fact comfort you in these days of trials and triibulations. Paull said We also glory in tribulations... because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us ( Romans 5:3-5). The Helper has been given to all believers to fill our hearts with the love of God.

2. The Helper was sent by the Father, in the name of Jesus, to take His place and continue to tteach His disciples all things. He would also cause them to remember all that Jesus taught them, so that they could give us the complete Word of God ( John 14:26; 2 Pewt. 1:12).

3. The Helper, Whom I shall send to you from the Father, was sent to testify of Me ( John 15:26). For almost 2 thousand years the Holy Spirit has motivaqted believers to give testimony to the saving and keeping power of the Lord Jesus Christ ( Acts 8:29-40). And the Helper will continue to fill obedient believers with the power to share their faith with the lost ( Acts 1:8).

4. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would take His doctrine and guide the Apostles as they recorded what He taught. He would help them to remember, and show them things yet to come ( Acts 1:1, 2). On the day of Pentacost the helper began His ministry of evangelizing the world and guiding the Apostles ass they wrote the New Testament. He has continued to evangelize the world and to guide believers as they study God's Word, helping them to grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus. He will continue His great ministry until Jesaus comes to rapture the church ( 1 Thess. 4:13-18).


I hope this helps Josh. May God bless, Golfjack

 

[cyberjosh]

1. The Helper will abide with you forever...and will be iin you . Let this fact comfort you in these days of trials and triibulations. Paull said We also glory in tribulations... because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us ( Romans 5:3-5). The Helper has been given to all believers to fill our hearts with the love of God.

In the other thread though I thought you implied that apostacy is possible.

I'll ask you what I asked francis in my other thread: "If salvation is a constant daily thing then what good is a constant seal of the Holy Spirit if it can be broken? I will admit that a Christian can loose his salvation if you can prove to me one thing: How a new creation, regenerated and sustained by the Holy Spirit, which is as a seal, can have the Spirit ripped away and survive? We would cease to be a new creature and our justification would be severed from us. How can the Holy Spirit depart from a believer? I see no provisions for that in Scripture."

What is your answer to this? I look forward to your reply.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[golfjack]

reply

Josh, All you have to do is study Hebrews 10:26:29. Sttudy it carefully, especially verse 26 where it says iif we sin willfully. Notice it doesn't say sins. It says sin. This has to be the unpardonable or basphemy of the Holy Spirit. This part of scripture lines up with Hebrews 6:4-6 as to how one can comitt this sin. It sets all the conditions. I really don't think many would publically reject Jesus after their saved, but it is possible. You may disagree, but I also believe that one must be Spirit-filled to qualify to be condemned under this sin. I have talked a lot about this in other threads, and I guess the conclusions of others is the only way one can lose salvation is if they weren't saved in the first place. This doesn't make any sense to me. I hope I have provided what you wanted.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[cyberjosh]

Josh, All you have to do is study Hebrews 10:26:29. Sttudy it carefully, especially verse 26 where it says iif we sin willfully. Notice it doesn't say sins. It says sin. This has to be the unpardonable or basphemy of the Holy Spirit. This part of scripture lines up with Hebrews 6:4-6 as to how one can comitt this sin. It sets all the conditions. I really don't think many would publically reject Jesus after their saved, but it is possible. You may disagree, but I also believe that one must be Spirit-filled to qualify to be condemned under this sin. I have talked a lot about this in other threads, and I guess the conclusions of others is the only way one can lose salvation is if they weren't saved in the first place. This doesn't make any sense to me. I hope I have provided what you wanted.

Thank you for replying. I personally agree that the terminology in Hebrews seems inescapable. But I have a difficult time reconciling it with the rest of Scripture. That is what I was hoping you could help me with. It seemed that the only way the Disciples could fall away (like Peter) from Jesus was because they didn't have the Holy Spirit in them. Yet we have the Holy Spirit so it seems logical to deduce that the Holy Spirit protects us against that. Do you see my reasoning? Do you see what I'm trying to get at? Can you offer any reconciliation of this with your position on salvation & security?

~Josh