Discussing alleged biblical contradictions/problems

[david_james]

Note from moderator: This discussion has been moved from another thread to here to prevent the former thread from being hijacked. This is now a separate discussion.

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If God wanted Cain to kill Abel, why did He punish Cain?

 

[akilae]

Re:

If God wanted Cain to kill Abel, why did He punish Cain?

Why does God in parts of the Bible condone rape? Why does he tell us to kill our own family members when they don't belive in God? Why did he create evil?

Because God can be quit vindictive when he chooses to, which he often did in the OT.

 

[david_james]

If God wanted Cain to kill Abel, why did He punish Cain?

Why does God in parts of the Bible condone rape? Why does he tell us to kill our own family members when they don't belive in God? Why did he create evil?

Because God can be quit vindictive when he chooses to, which he often did in the OT.

GOD DOESN"T CONDONE RAPE!!! :mad
God didn't create evil. Evil is not doing what God has commanded.
The thing about killing family was under the old way. I'll need to come back with a clearer answer.

 

[akilae]

GOD DOESN"T CONDONE RAPE!!!

I'm afraid he does, Numbers 31:7-18. They are not allowed to marry the women either, as the one man who does causes the Israelites to be afflicted with a plague until they basically remove his genitalia to do so. They are told to keep the girls as basically sex slaves.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 (King James Version)

28If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

29Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days

Basically, the woman raped is forced to marry her rapist. What mercy.

Deuteronomy 21:10-14 (King James Version)

10When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive,

11And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife;

12Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails;

13And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife.

14And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her.

I jut love how they refer to rape, you have humbled her. That makes it sound like a good thing, as humility is good, right?

and here is the best of the best:

Zechariah 14:1-2 (English Standard Version)

Zechariah 14
The Coming Day of the LORD
1Behold,(A) a day is coming for the LORD, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in your midst. 2For(B) I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and(C) the city shall be taken(D) and the houses plundered(E) and the women raped.(F) Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

God condones rape.

God didn't create evil.

Yes he did, and he admits to it.

Isaiah 45:7 (English Standard Version)
7I form light and create darkness,
I make well-being and(A) create calamity,
I am the LORD, who does all these things.

and

Amos 3:6 (English Standard Version)
6(A) Is a trumpet blown in a city,
and the people are not afraid?
(B) Does disaster come to a city,
unless the LORD has done it?

God creates evil.

The thing about killing family was under the old way. I'll need to come back with a clearer answer.

There is no such thing as an old way. God does not change, and all of his laws have to be kept, even the old testament ones. Jesus said in Matthew that not a single law shall pass until the end of days.

Luke 16:17 (English Standard Version)
17But(A) it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one dot of the Law to become void

Deuteronomy 11:1
Therefore thou shalt love the LORD thy God, and keep his charge, and his statutes, and his judgments, and his commandments, alway.

Matthew 5:18-19
Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall nowise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven.

Sorry, but if you don't follow all the OT laws, you're being a hipocrit and choosing which morals to follow, rather than the whole book. *shrug*

 

[david_james]

I asked someone for help and they said:
Hello David,

It looks like you have run into a person that has been well educated in atheistic teachings by someone that has gone to a great deal of time and effort to tear down the Bible without really trying to study the truth. These types are very usually quite difficult to even talk to since they are certain they are correct and you and the Bible are wrong. I'll do my best with God's help to try to help you.


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I'm afraid he does, Numbers 31:7-18. They are not allowed to marry the women either, as the one man who does causes the Israelites to be afflicted with a plague until they basically remove his genitalia to do so. They are told to keep the girls as basically sex slaves.

First of all the man that died because of the plague laid with a woman that had sex with other men prior to him not to one that was a virgin. We know this because Num 25:6 refers to her as a woman not a virgin. Secondly they are making assumptions that they were not allowed to marry those that are taken. The Israelites had laws that did not allow them to marry a female under a certain age. Those that were "taken" and kept would have been under that age of marriage in order to ascertain that they were virgins. They would have been taken and raised according to the laws that Moses had laid out.

There are no scriptures asserting where "They are told to keep the girls as basically sex slaves." This is simply nothing more than someone twisting words to mean what they want them to mean.

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Basically, the woman raped is forced to marry her rapist. What mercy.

The scripture being spoken of here is Deuteronomy 22:28-29. Again scripture is being twisted to mean something other than what is actually said. The words in the KJV "and lay hold on her" is the original Hebrew word of tâphaś that is erroneously translated into rape in some Bible versions. The word actually means to manipulate as in a more modern word of seduce. This statement is not talking of a forced relationship but one where the female is convinced to participate willingly.


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I jut love how they refer to rape, you have humbled her. That makes it sound like a good thing, as humility is good, right?

This comes from a lack of understanding scriptures and the proper usage of words. The meaning of words can be multiple meanings and even those meanings change over time. The original Hebrew word here is ‛ânâh. This word also means to defile. A woman that has been "humbled" in the old extent of this word means that they are no longer a virgin, they have basically been "defiled". The word defiled here does not mean that they are trash to be looked down on but rather that they simply are not a virgin any longer.

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and here is the best of the best:

Zechariah 14:1-2 God is telling in this portion of scripture what is going to happen. This is not the same as condoning that action.

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There is no such thing as an old way. God does not change, and all of his laws have to be kept, even the old testament ones. Jesus said in Matthew that not a single law shall pass until the end of days.

It is totally correct that God Himself does not change. This does not mean that His rules for us has not changed. As we are told in the New Testament in Joh 8:7 "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." We are also told in the NT that "All have sinned" Therefore none are able to cast that first stone.

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Sorry, but if you don't follow all the OT laws, you're being a hipocrit and choosing which morals to follow, rather than the whole book.

There is a big difference between "The Laws" and precepts given by Moses. There is also a big difference between being "under the law" and being "under grace". It would take a long time to discuss this and to explain these differences however a good place to start is in the book of Galations and Hebrews.


I will be happy to continue in pm.

Now back on topic. If God wanted Abel to die, why was He angry and why punish Cain?

 

[akilae]

If God wanted Abel to die, why was He angry and why punish Cain?

I would figure this to be an easy one, God at that time was known for having a less than... kindly attitude. It would not surprise me in the least for him to be so vindictive.

I mean, this is a being who had his own son(himself) killed when he could have just as easily washed away sin with a wave of his divine hand. A lot of what he does doesn't make sense, as being all-powerful he could do anything, at any time.

I

 

[david_james]

but my question is, why punish someone for doing something he wanted done?

 

[akilae]

Re: God wanted Abel to die

but my question is, why punish someone for doing something he wanted done?

There are two ways to answer this.

The first is simple, not everything requires a reason. But perhaps that is too simple.

The second answer is thus;

Have you ever played the Sims? Many when they do will create intricate lives for their sims, only to at some point decide to kill them, annihalate their lives for the simple fun of it. Have you ever built something, simply so as to afterwards destroy it?

God has little respect for human life, I am afraid that is undeniable. In fact, God has killed, excluding the flood, Sodom and Gemmora, over 3 million people, by his own hand.

Perhaps, just perhaps, God, at least the biblical one, is vindictive, is malevolent. Maybe he is cruel,he created evil, so why wouldn't he be?

 

[david_james]

You speak great blasphemy and should be banned!

God loves us! He treasures us! We were fearfully made! He doesn't take pleasure in the death of His creation!

 

[akilae]

You speak great blasphemy and should be banned!

I am having trouble deciding whether or not you are joking. I am merely engaging in discussion with you.

It is an attitude like that that makes it little wonder that so many were burned to the stake. Let's try to be civil, alright?

I am merely giving examples and showing you how I have to the conclusions I have through them.

God loves us! He treasures us! We were fearfully made! He doesn't take pleasure in the death of His creation!

Then I ask you, why does he kill so many, so very, very many? A being who loves their creation does not do this. A parent that kills their child over the child disobeying them would be considered insane, reprehensible, evil.

Why, if God is our divine parent, do we make an exception to the rule?

And furthermore, why is God an exception to his own rules?

I am not trying to offend you, or anybody. I am merely asking questions, in part because I am almost finished writing a novel that covers many topics similar to these, and I don't want to publish it, having arrogantly asserted myself without acknowledging those who would disagree. I am merely looking for truth, so please, act civil.

for now, I will assume you were joking in your comment.

 

[david_james]

Re: God wanted Abel to die

I am not joking! You are mocking God and that offends me.

The wages of sin is death. God doesn't enjoy punishing us.

 

[akilae]

I am not joking! You are mocking God and that offends me.

Then I pity you, for having such a closed mind leads to nothing but misery, either for yourself or others.

God doesn't enjoy punishing us.

Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. But it has to say something that while in all the Bible, Satan is only recorded killing 10 people (which occured over a bet with God) whereas God has killed millions.

Unfortunately however, regardless of God's word, actions will always speak louder.

 

[cyberjosh]

Then I pity you, for having such a closed mind leads to nothing but misery, either for yourself or others.

Akilae, please, I would ask you to be more considerate and less edgy in tone in your posts. This forum has quite a broad diversity of experience, background, and opinion on it, thus a certain level of tolerance is warranted, and please also respect the fact that this is largely a christian forum. If matters of faith seem close-minded to you then that's all you are seemingly going to encounter here, from a certain one-sided perspective. However if you learn to sincerely respect others' opinions you will find it much more edifying to speak with people you may disagree with. From some of the things you have said about God I too take a certain measure of offense, not for my own sake but God's, but I certainly say that david is entitled to his opinion. Would you not agree?

At any rate I'm sure you are a reasonable person and mean no ill intent. I would suppose that you wanted to join this forum to sincerely engage in conversation with others and not to be provocational, yes? I'm no one special but because of the way I have handled controversies on these boards here before I was offered the privilege and responsiblity of being a moderator because I have moderative spirit, and only sincere and reasonable discussions are really worth spending any time on an online community forum and having discussions with people who live around the globe and have a variety of opinion and background. It is what makes it interesting, what makes it fun, and what makes it stimulating. And most importantly "keeping the peace" is what keeps it going.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[stranger]

david_james asked:

If God wanted Cain to kill Abel, why did He punish Cain?

I'm not sure if you are quoting someone else or not as the thread was restarted.

'God wanted Cain to kill Abel' sounds like an attempt to make God the author of evil.

Cain's punishment was a result of the warning God gave Cain in Gen 4:7
"If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it."


blessings

 

[MarkT]

Then I ask you, why does he kill so many, so very, very many? A being who loves their creation does not do this.

They were destroyed because they were corrupt. If you were a farmer and you had a herd of cattle and there was mad cow disease going around, you would have to cull the herd. You would have to separate the diseased animals from the clean ones and you would have to destroy the diseased animals to save the good ones. If some are destroyed and some are left behind, what is that to you?

A parent that kills their child over the child disobeying them would be considered insane, reprehensible, evil.

Not sure where this is coming from but I think we need to explain the law. The law is greater than your law. It's not something we follow blindly as you follow your laws. It's not even understood in the same way.

Following the law doesn't make us good like you think. The law condemns to death. It's like a mathematical expression, like 2 added to 2 equals 4. It's more like the laws of physics. The action of adding 2 to 2 equals 4 - sin equals death. That's why we use words like fall and fallen - if you do this or if you continue this practice, you will fall. If you step off this path you will fall. If you follow that path, it leads to destruction. If you step off the cliff, you will fall. Now we know that the law says that those who do this deserve death.

How can we express it to you? It's not that we're saying you will be good. No one is good but God alone. We're saying you will be destroyed. Like I said, the diseased animals will be destroyed. But we believe Jesus made sacrifice for us - made us clean. Some people think the law exists to make people good, but actually it condemns everyone to death.

Christians are about saving the soul. When we say to the wicked, 'unless you repent, you will die in your sins', we are not saying it to create a perfect world or to establish ourselves as better than you. We are trying to save you from certain death. Don't listen to the devil! According to prophecy, the world as we know it will be destroyed.

Why, if God is our divine parent, do we make an exception to the rule?

When we're using the parent metaphor, we're talking about the spirit. If a man's intelligence is telling him there is no God, then he is not of God. The parent could be the devil. As Jesus said, if God was your father you would know Jesus.

 

[david_james]

stranger, I asked that question. It was to disprove the illogical statement that God wanted Abel to die.

 

[wavy]

Re:

First of all the man that died because of the plague laid with a woman that had sex with other men prior to him not to one that was a virgin. We know this because Num 25:6 refers to her as a woman not a virgin.

So Eve wasn't a virgin? (Genesis ii.22-23)? Also, the word 'woman' does not appear in the Hebrew text. 'Midianite' is feminine.

The Israelites had laws that did not allow them to marry a female under a certain age.

Oh? Where?

They would have been taken and raised according to the laws that Moses had laid out.

You mean Deuteronomy xxi.10-14, where they take them against their will, shave their head and trim their nails?

There are no scriptures asserting where "They are told to keep the girls as basically sex slaves."

Deuteronomy xxi.10-14 disagrees. They can abduct them, keep them, have sex with them, even marry them! But if they're 'not pleased' with them, they can let them go. Sounds like a sex slave to me.

The scripture being spoken of here is Deuteronomy 22:28-29. Again scripture is being twisted to mean something other than what is actually said. The words in the KJV "and lay hold on her" is the original Hebrew word of tâphaś that is erroneously translated into rape in some Bible versions. The word actually means to manipulate as in a more modern word of seduce. This statement is not talking of a forced relationship but one where the female is convinced to participate willingly.

What reputable Hebrew source do you have to support your assertion? She is seized, not 'seduced', and does not participate willingly. The rape is redressed by punishing the man in two ways: First, since the father's daughter is now violated, he will not be able to procure a bride price for her (i.e., sell her off), so the rapist has to pay her father that bride price. Secondly, the rapist has to expend further resources by providing for his victim for life, since she won't be able to get a husband otherwise to take care of her. That is why he can never divorce her. The victim is not participating 'willingly'. She receives no punishment.

I don't have the time, but if I scanned the rest of your post, I wonder how many more exegetical and linguistic errors or unsupported assertions I could find...Maybe I'll come back later.


Thanks,
Eric

 

[guitarman]

This forum reminds me of a lot of other forums I've been on. Whenever someone such as akilae brings up evidence contradicting mainstream christianity, the argument invariably falls back to "because god said so" or "he's mysterious we can't understand his ways." These are copouts. Check out this link if you want to see a huge list of biblical contradictions. http://bs4a.blogspot.com/2006/12/welcom ... eists.html

 

[cyberjosh]

This forum reminds me of a lot of other forums I've been on. Whenever someone such as akilae brings up evidence contradicting mainstream christianity, the argument invariably falls back to "because god said so" or "he's mysterious we can't understand his ways." These are copouts.

I think you should read the original thread that this was split off from (here). I defended the orthodox view with as best theological reasons as I could give, and I gave somewhat long and detailed answers. I certainly did not "copout".

~Josh

 

[radorth]

Some OT characters seem to mix up God's will, natural events and the devil, as when Job assumes God had "set me up for a target."