Are you saying you don't believe in the Trinity?
That seems to be a virus going around this forum.
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Disillusionment in the Church post New Millennium
- Thread starter JohnD
- Start date
That seems to be a virus going around this forum.
where you been. he has been on this forum for a few years and never said that he was a Trinitarian.
B
Brother Mike
Guest
The thread is not about a belief in "Trinity" I just used that as one of many examples someone might bring up. It don't matter what you believe, it matters what people claim the Word said. Is it doctrines of men as JohnD said, or is it revealed by the Holy Spirit to you?
Do you just believe things you heard all your life and run with the pack, or are you getting revelation from the Holy Spirit?
I just listed some things off the top of my head that I hear, but are not in scripture. I could care less about a "trinity" it's just an example. Nothing more than that.
Thank you Jason, I never claimed to be Trinitarian. The topic is not even important to the thread. I just posted something I personally hear in my church once in awhile...... "Jesus, the 2nd person in the Godhead." What point did Jesus only get 2nd place though? Beats me.
a
How do you relate 2nd person of the Godhead with 2nd place?
Did the Spirit of God tell you this?
Or are you speaking from the flesh?
B
Brother Mike
Guest
Human logic. The 2nd person in something is the 2nd person in place, the 2nd person to show up, the 2nd person denoting they were not the 1st person. For there to be a 2nd person, there has to be a 1st person.
If there is a 2nd apple, then their must be a 1st apple.
If Jesus was the 1st born of many brethern, then we are the some number in there, but we are not the 1st, He was.
Did you catch the part about Trinity not being the topic here? You must have missed that though. I must not be clear enough, has to be my fault I guess.
Obadiah
Member
I would certainly hope that no members of our forum would stoop so low as to try to bait another member into saying something that could be against our Terms of Service just because they think they can...
Seems there are a lot of things in our ideas of what a church should look like today that we can talk about, not just about one or two examples. Maybe some positive talk of how to improve as well as positive reasons why we do some things the way we do would be beneficial. But that's just my own personal opinion.
Seems there are a lot of things in our ideas of what a church should look like today that we can talk about, not just about one or two examples. Maybe some positive talk of how to improve as well as positive reasons why we do some things the way we do would be beneficial. But that's just my own personal opinion.
i could post the drama with phil Robertson' statements and locally and how it will affect the examples of Christ in the eyes of the locals.
This is a good illustration.I am trying to choose my words carefully because what I am about to say can be so easily misunderstood...
Better yet, I'll illustrate:
But what do we do about it?
Put the Bible (not the traditions of men) back into the authoritative position God intended all along... beginning with ourselves.
Douglas Summers
Member
Hi Mike, Do you not believe that God is "sovereign"? (1 Tim. 3:16) And that He does not know the beginning from the end? (Isa. 44:6; Rev. 22:13) He is the beginning and the end. He created the ages. (Gen. 1;1; Rev. Chapters 21 & 22) And as far as the second person of the Godhead, we are baptized in this order off their activities, The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit. (Matt. 28:18-20).
In Christ
Douglas Summers
B
Brother Mike
Guest
Wow, you come late. Your also missing the scripture about the 1st 2nd and 3rd person in the Godhead, Made known by Rome in the 1600's and your missing the God knows the beginning from the end scripture, though you did mention Isa 44:6 which does not say that at all, and Your not versed enough to bother with this.
Douglas Summers
Member
:
Hi Mike, Prov. 8:13 We may know a lot, but without this 1 Cor. Chapter 13, we are nothing but a tinkling brass cymbal. Mike, if I were a non believer, your attitude would never draw me to the Lord. The Lord has humbled me by His Grace. I find Grace missing in your post.
In Christ
Douglas Summers
B
Brother Mike
Guest
Grace is for those that ask questions. Rebuke is for those that think they know, using scriptures without understanding and ignoring many others. Your the one that started off quoting the Athanasian Creed and God is Sovereign which both are nowhere to be found in scriptures. Perhaps some more thought about what the Word of God does say would help you out. Otherwise, you need to find someone as lax as yourself to speak with.
smaller
Member
Ah, the churches!
Jesus made His most vicious statements to the "members" of Jewish religious hierarchy, the "temple rulers" for all intents and purposes.
Vehemently opposing them.
But why was that may seem to be the order of the day in the lines of questioning?
Firstly, it was JESUS who was meant to SIT IN THAT TEMPLE. They would have none of that! I'd like to think we've all gotten over THAT hurdle, and understand that it IS The Spirit of Christ who presently dwells in our respective temples, our bodies, by faith, through His unmerited Grace.
Would anyone amen this? If not, I'll amen in your behalves, because I believe this to be TRUE and TRUTHFUL for all of you who have came to Jesus, by Faith, through His Grace.
So what exactly was Jesus opposing with the leaders of the temple at that time? Please follow the lines of logic here and you may find it quite fascinating.
The Primary Warning was not to be hypocrites.
Luke 12:1
In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.
I like to give this example of not being able to see in some. We all know of the infamous "beam or log" in the eye, but WHAT IS IT? What is THAT BEAM/LOG?
Matthew 7:5
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
And quite entirely, remarkably, what that beam is has always been set right before our very eyes, yet we, or some of us, still wonder what exactly that beam/log is.
Let's look again:
Matthew 7:5
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
Got it! Thanks Jesus! I read that scripture for at least 10 years, wondering what exactly the BEAM/LOG was, when it was right there before me the entire time and I did NOT see it.
Jesus gave us a DIRECT PATH out of hypocrisy, and gave the example of the Pharisee's sight as opposed to the man, NOT of the temple, who went to his home, JUSTIFIED. I don't know about you, but I do want to go to my house, JUSTIFIED in the sight of our Lord.
So here we see, a member of the religious hierarchy, in his "thought life" before God:
Luke 18:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Self justifications may not seem to be the path that Jesus prefers, in order to avoid this kind of hypocrisy, where we may falsely think "I am not as other men are."
Uh, yeah, in regards to having sin, there is not one of us, no, not one, who is not a sinner. And I will credit any who take this matter, personally, as not being "a hypocrite." If anyone needs my confession, not that it would matter to me, but yes, I AM a sinner, no different than any man or any neighbor. And I might hope that this has removed the BEAM of HYPOCRISY from my eye.
Here, this man prayed, and was received, justified in the sight of God in Christ:
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Jesus gives us deep personal understandings here as to The Order of God in Christ.
"he that humbleth himself"
And I will perhaps admit to taking this measure to the extreme, for myself. And to make it clear, the exalting here is NOT what a person might think, that such claimaints will receive "exaltation" from other religious folk. Exaltation in this case will take one even further DOWN the ladder of weakness. That is Gods Form of exaltation.
Think of Jesus, His Death on the cross, and you will see GODS FORM of exaltation!
There will be no group applause. No amen's from any other person. No pulpit to stand in whilst the masses cheer you on.
The path for exaltation is the cross that each of us bear, in our SINs. There is actually no avoiding it for any believer.
If you were to ask me what the churches collectively suffer from between ourselves it is this:
We suffer from hypocrisy. And as a direct result of that hypocrisy, we all justify ourselves, and in that, the churches have essentially been given over to DEATH amongst each others. How? Let's just face an ugly little fact here. Just how many "churches" practice the condemnation of other sects of christianity, thinking in their own hearts, they THEY only are right? And they subsequently commit, in their own minds, just about all the other "church" members to possible eternal death in hell?
In this way, the entirety of these bodies of believers have fallen headlong into DEATH, themselves. God has basically given them over, into this practice. I would present any form of older christian orthodoxy as examples of this measure, whereby they openly commit anyone who disagrees with them, as worthy of death. (citings available upon request.)
And this "internal infection" has spread like a cancer amongst ALL the members. It is a fire that can not be put out.
Why is it, that between ourselves, as believers, we just can not seem to get OVER this hurdle? And I ask this, sincerely.
Why is it that the common practices amongst all of us is this kind of condemnation?
I thank God in Christ for this STANDARD OF LIFE, and it is the one I will bear for everyone who has called upon Jesus to save them, in faith, by His Immeasurable Grace, which Grace I believe will SWEEP through the churches at the "end time."
John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
THIS is Jesus' Own Promise, to ALL that come unto Him.
Those who practice condemnation will FALL and have already into the hands of Satan. Guaranteed from Above.
And even these, I believe, shall be saved anyway. But they will leave this earth with many regrets however, wishing that they had simply loved ALL the brethren better, in the Love we have already received In Him.
So you have my measure of HOPE to all of you. I'd also HOPE you don't find my sights offensive, as they are not meant to be that way. I am, after all, a sinner.
Jesus made His most vicious statements to the "members" of Jewish religious hierarchy, the "temple rulers" for all intents and purposes.
Vehemently opposing them.
But why was that may seem to be the order of the day in the lines of questioning?
Firstly, it was JESUS who was meant to SIT IN THAT TEMPLE. They would have none of that! I'd like to think we've all gotten over THAT hurdle, and understand that it IS The Spirit of Christ who presently dwells in our respective temples, our bodies, by faith, through His unmerited Grace.
Would anyone amen this? If not, I'll amen in your behalves, because I believe this to be TRUE and TRUTHFUL for all of you who have came to Jesus, by Faith, through His Grace.
So what exactly was Jesus opposing with the leaders of the temple at that time? Please follow the lines of logic here and you may find it quite fascinating.
The Primary Warning was not to be hypocrites.
Luke 12:1
In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.
I like to give this example of not being able to see in some. We all know of the infamous "beam or log" in the eye, but WHAT IS IT? What is THAT BEAM/LOG?
Matthew 7:5
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
And quite entirely, remarkably, what that beam is has always been set right before our very eyes, yet we, or some of us, still wonder what exactly that beam/log is.
Let's look again:
Matthew 7:5
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
Got it! Thanks Jesus! I read that scripture for at least 10 years, wondering what exactly the BEAM/LOG was, when it was right there before me the entire time and I did NOT see it.
Jesus gave us a DIRECT PATH out of hypocrisy, and gave the example of the Pharisee's sight as opposed to the man, NOT of the temple, who went to his home, JUSTIFIED. I don't know about you, but I do want to go to my house, JUSTIFIED in the sight of our Lord.
So here we see, a member of the religious hierarchy, in his "thought life" before God:
Luke 18:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Self justifications may not seem to be the path that Jesus prefers, in order to avoid this kind of hypocrisy, where we may falsely think "I am not as other men are."
Uh, yeah, in regards to having sin, there is not one of us, no, not one, who is not a sinner. And I will credit any who take this matter, personally, as not being "a hypocrite." If anyone needs my confession, not that it would matter to me, but yes, I AM a sinner, no different than any man or any neighbor. And I might hope that this has removed the BEAM of HYPOCRISY from my eye.
Here, this man prayed, and was received, justified in the sight of God in Christ:
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Jesus gives us deep personal understandings here as to The Order of God in Christ.
"he that humbleth himself"
And I will perhaps admit to taking this measure to the extreme, for myself. And to make it clear, the exalting here is NOT what a person might think, that such claimaints will receive "exaltation" from other religious folk. Exaltation in this case will take one even further DOWN the ladder of weakness. That is Gods Form of exaltation.
Think of Jesus, His Death on the cross, and you will see GODS FORM of exaltation!
There will be no group applause. No amen's from any other person. No pulpit to stand in whilst the masses cheer you on.
The path for exaltation is the cross that each of us bear, in our SINs. There is actually no avoiding it for any believer.
If you were to ask me what the churches collectively suffer from between ourselves it is this:
We suffer from hypocrisy. And as a direct result of that hypocrisy, we all justify ourselves, and in that, the churches have essentially been given over to DEATH amongst each others. How? Let's just face an ugly little fact here. Just how many "churches" practice the condemnation of other sects of christianity, thinking in their own hearts, they THEY only are right? And they subsequently commit, in their own minds, just about all the other "church" members to possible eternal death in hell?
In this way, the entirety of these bodies of believers have fallen headlong into DEATH, themselves. God has basically given them over, into this practice. I would present any form of older christian orthodoxy as examples of this measure, whereby they openly commit anyone who disagrees with them, as worthy of death. (citings available upon request.)
And this "internal infection" has spread like a cancer amongst ALL the members. It is a fire that can not be put out.
Why is it, that between ourselves, as believers, we just can not seem to get OVER this hurdle? And I ask this, sincerely.
Why is it that the common practices amongst all of us is this kind of condemnation?
I thank God in Christ for this STANDARD OF LIFE, and it is the one I will bear for everyone who has called upon Jesus to save them, in faith, by His Immeasurable Grace, which Grace I believe will SWEEP through the churches at the "end time."
John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
THIS is Jesus' Own Promise, to ALL that come unto Him.
Those who practice condemnation will FALL and have already into the hands of Satan. Guaranteed from Above.
And even these, I believe, shall be saved anyway. But they will leave this earth with many regrets however, wishing that they had simply loved ALL the brethren better, in the Love we have already received In Him.
So you have my measure of HOPE to all of you. I'd also HOPE you don't find my sights offensive, as they are not meant to be that way. I am, after all, a sinner.
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