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Divine Foreknowledge

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Yesterday, I took some time off to study my Bible, and read more from Boyd, and other Open Theists, and it began to unfold to me that they were debating with someone. Many thoughts, and arguments, came to my mind as I was going through Boyd's sight particularly, and I just couldn't seem to order them. There were a lot of issues to deal with all at once. Then I decided to look to a sight that I would have some kinship with, and see if anyone was discussing this. This article says a lot of what I would have said in response to Boyd, but so much more. Mr. Frame is breaking it down to the subject of Divine Foreknowledge, and I think that seems to be the main topic here in the forums concerning Open Theism right now. I am not one to usually use commentary, but I admit I am still learning a great deal about this myself. My reactions to Open Theism have been on to some degree, but off as well. I think that Frame articulates what I have been trying to say much better concerning Divine Foreknowledge than I could have ever hoped to. He has more on this topic as well, but this one struck me because some of the verses have already come up, I believe. Anyway, the Lord bless you all.


Open Theism and Divine Foreknowledge
John M. Frame

This article appeared in Douglas Wilson, ed., Bound Only Once (Moscow, ID: Canon Press, 2001), 83-94. It is used here with permission.



Open theists deny that God knows the future exhaustively. In their view, God is often ignorant about what will happen, [1] sometimes even mistaken. [2] He “expresses frustration†[3] when people do things he had not anticipated. He changes his mind when things don’t go as he had hoped. [4] In these contentions, open theists admittedly differ from “the classical view of God worked out in the western tradition†[5] that prevailed from the early church Fathers to the present with a few exceptions (such as the Socinian heresy [6] ). This classical view has been the position of all Christian theological traditions: Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, and all forms of Protestantism. [7] It affirms that God has complete knowledge of everything that happens in the past, present, and future. Thus open theism denies the historic Christian view of God’s omniscience. The present article will discuss the major issues in the controversy between the classical view and the open view.



Libertarianism

Why this radical divergence from the almost universal consensus of professing Christians? Open theists offer various reasons for their position, but the most fundamental, in my judgment, is that the classical view is inconsistent with human freedom in the libertarian sense. Since open theists (also called “freewill theistsâ€Â) want to affirm human freedom in this sense, they must abandon the classical view of God’s omniscience.

A free act in the libertarian sense [8] is an act that is utterly uncaused, undetermined. It is not caused by God, nor by anything in creation, nor even by the desires and dispositions of the one who performs the act. Such causes may “influence†or “incline†us to a certain choice, but they never determine a choice, if that choice is free in the libertarian sense. At the moment of choice, on this view, we are always equally able to choose or not to choose a particular alternative. [9] For this reason, libertarian freedom is sometimes called “liberty of indifference,†for up to the very moment of choice nothing is settled; the will is indifferent. [10]

Now if people are free in the libertarian sense, then human decisions are radically unpredictable. Even God cannot know them in advance. If in 1930 God knew that I would be writing this article in 2000, then I would not be writing it freely. I could not avoid writing it. So if my writing is a free choice in the libertarian sense, even God cannot have been certain of it in advance. Libertarian freedom excludes the classical view of God’s foreknowledge. [11]

On this view, the future is of such a nature that it cannot be known exhaustively. So open theists claim that on their view God is indeed omniscient, in the sense that he knows everything that can be known. That he lacks exhaustive knowledge of the future is no more of a limitation than his inability to make a square circle. Just as his omnipotence enables him to do everything that can be done, so his omniscience enables him to know everything that can be known. That includes knowledge of the past and present, but not the future, so open theists name their view presentism. [12]

For open theists, therefore, libertarian freedom is a fundamental premise, a standard by which all other theological statements are judged. Typically, open theists do not argue the case (such as there is) for libertarian freedom; rather, they assume it. [13] It is their presupposition. So God cannot have exhaustive knowledge of the future. Pinnock says,

However, omniscience need not mean exhaustive foreknowledge of all future events. If that were its meaning, the future would be fixed and determined, much as is the past. Total knowledge of the future would imply a fixity of events. Nothing in the future would need to be decided. It also would imply that human freedom is an illusion, that we make no difference and are not responsible. [14]

He is saying that God cannot know the future exhaustively, because if he did we would not have libertarian freedom.

In my view, however, libertarianism is both unscriptural and incoherent. [15] Scripture does speak of God determining the choices of human beings.

In Proverbs, the writer declares, “To man belong the plans of the heart, but from the LORD comes the reply of the tongue… In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps†(Prov. 16:1, 9). [16] God’s counsel, indeed, brings everything to pass: Christians are predestined to eternal life “according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose [17] of his own will†(Eph. 1:11; compare Rom. 11:36, Lam. 3:37-38). [18]

Open theist Gregory Boyd seeks to mitigate the implications of the fact that Jesus predicted Judas’ betrayal (John 6:64, 70-71, 13:18-19, 17:12). But he concedes the heart of the matter:

Scripture elsewhere teaches that a dreadful time may come when God discerns that it is useless to strive with a particular individual or a group of people any longer. At this point, he withdraws his Spirit from these people, hardens their hearts, and thus seals their destinies (e.g. Gen. 6:3; Rom. 1:24-27). [19]

Clearly Judas’ decision to betray Jesus was not free in the libertarian sense. He was not then equally able to choose either alternative. Boyd implies that many human decisions are not free in this sense.

But what human decisions are free in the libertarian sense? Scripture never teaches libertarianism or even mentions it explicitly. Libertarians do try to derive it from the biblical view of human responsibility, but Scripture itself never does that. Judas is fully responsible for his betrayal of Christ, though we saw above that it was not a free act in the libertarian sense.

Nor does Scripture ever judge anyone’s conduct, as we might expect on the libertarian view, by showing that the conduct was uncaused. [20] If only uncaused actions were morally or legally responsible, how could anyone prove moral or legal guilt? For it is impossible to prove that any human action is uncaused. Indeed, courts today as in biblical times rightly assume the opposite of libertarianism: that morally responsible actions (as opposed, for example, to accidents or insane behavior) are determined by motives. Lack of a motive diminishes or abrogates responsibility. So libertarianism, which open theists regard as the foundation of moral responsibility, actually destroys moral responsibility. [21]

These considerations show, in my view, that libertarian freedom does not exist. Therefore it provides no barrier to our confession that God knows the future exhaustively. And so important is libertarianism to the open theist position that without it, the open theist position entirely lacks credibility.



Divine Ignorance in Scripture?
Nevertheless, we should also consider the open theist contention that Scripture itself reveals a God who is sometimes ignorant about the future. Pinnock says,

Many believe that the Bible says that God has exhaustive foreknowledge, but it does not. It says, for example, that God tested Abraham to see what he would do and after the test says through the angel, “Now I know that you fear God†(Gen. 22:12). This was a piece of information God was eager to secure. In another place Moses said that God was testing the people in order to know whether they actually love him or not (Deut. 13:3).

He also mentions Jer. 32:35 (“nor did it enter my mind that they should do this abominationâ€Â) and the verses in which God hopes that “perhaps†his people will listen (Jer. 26:3, Ezek. 12:3, etc.) Throughout this discussion, Pinnock returns several times to talk about the importance of libertarian freedom, to the extent that the reader is entitled to ask if Pinnock is reading these texts through a libertarian lens.

As I indicated earlier, other open theists also discuss passages in which, on their view, God is uncertain, changes his mind, is frustrated, discovers new information, and so on. In this article I cannot deal exhaustively with this list of passages, but I will suggest some principles that bear on their interpretation: [22]

1. Typically, passages in which God “finds out†something occur in judicial contexts. In Gen. 3:9, God asks Adam, “where are you?†This is not a request for information. [23] In this verse God begins his judicial cross-examination. Adam’s responses will confirm God’s indictment, and God will respond in judgment and grace. But the same judicial context exists in other texts where God “comes down†to “find out†something. See Gen. 11:5, 18:20-21, [24] 22:12, Deut. 13:3, Psm. 44:21, 139:1, 23-24. When God draws near, he draws near as the judge. He conducts a “finding of fact†by personal observation and interrogation, then renders his verdict and sentence (often, of course, mitigated by his mercy). So none of these passages entail divine ignorance.

2. God’s “remembering†and “forgetting†are also judicial categories in Scripture, because they are covenant categories. For God to “remember†his covenant simply means for him to carry out its terms. So God “remembered†Noah and the earth’s creatures in Gen. 8:1 (compare 9:15-16, Ex. 6:5). [25] God’s “forgetting†is either his delay in fulfilling the covenant’s terms (Psm. 9:18, 13:1), or his administration of the curse to covenant breakers (Jer. 23:39).

3. When God says that something “never entered my mind†(Jer. 7:31, 19:5, 32:35) he is not confessing ignorance, but describing his standards for human behavior (still another judicial point). Note the context of Jer. 7:31:

They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire-- something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind.

The contexts of 19:5 and 32:35 are similar. “Mind†here is heart in Hebrew, often in Scripture the locus of intentions (compare 2 Chron. 7:11, Neh. 7:5). God is saying here that the horrible human sacrifice of Topheth is utterly contrary to his holy standards. God was not at all ignorant of these practices or of the danger that Israel would be tempted to sin in this way. He explicitly forbade human sacrifice in Lev. 18:21 and Deut. 18:10. So in the intellectual sense, these practices did enter his mind.

4. Some passages do say that God changes his mind in response to circumstances. Often Scripture says that God “relents†from a judgment he had planned, or regrets a course of action he had taken [26] (Gen. 6:6, 18:16-33, Ex. 32:9-14, 1 Sam. 15:35, Joel 2:13-14, Amos 7:1-6, Jonah 4:1-2). Paradoxically, however, this divine changeability is part of God’s unchangeable covenant purpose. [27] God says to Jeremiah,

If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it. (Jer. 18:7-10)

This principle means that many prophecies [28] are conditional. The nature of their fulfillment depends on human responses.

This conclusion, in itself, is congenial to open theists. But what this implies is simply that God does not intend such conditional prophecies to be revelations of his unchanging purpose. Contrary to open theists, God does have an unchanging purpose, described in Eph. 1:11 and other texts noted earlier. That purpose is unchanging, but it ordains change, including the divine relentings mentioned in the above passages. God has decreed eternally that many of his purposes will be accomplished through created means, including intercessory prayer and the responses of people to conditional prophecies.

5. There are some ways in which God does experience change when he enters the temporal world. The incarnation of Christ is the clearest example, mysterious as it is. Jesus grew in wisdom and stature (Luke 2:52) even though he was omniscient (John 2:24-25, 16:30, 21:17). He responded to events: rejoicing at this, angry at that. At one time he is rested, at another weary. He is born in Bethlehem, grows up in Nazareth. It was not merely the human nature of Jesus that underwent these changes, but the person of Jesus, the God-man.

But in a sense, God always experiences change of this kind when he is present in the world. When God met Moses in the burning bush, he said one thing, then another. When God acts in the world, in providence and redemption, his actions are temporally successive. He does one thing, then something else. He does what is appropriate in each situation, responding to one situation one way, to another another way. This is, as open theists emphasize, a kind of change.

Those who defend God’s changelessness against open theism sometimes describe these temporal successions as “anthropomorphic.†Of course in one sense everything we say about God is anthropomorphic, because we are using human language. But I don’t think the term anthropomorphic quite captures this temporal involvement of God in history. Anthropomorphic suggests that God does not really act in a temporally successive way. But in Scripture, God is really present in history, doing one thing, then another. [29]

The error of open theism is not in claiming that God’s actions in history are temporal and responsive, or even that in the temporal world there is a kind of “give and take†between God and his creatures. Open theists err, rather, in denying that in addition to God’s immanence in the world he also exists transcendently, governing everything in the world by his comprehensive decree.

So God is both fully omniscient and responsive to creatures. We may be grateful to the open theists for showing how pervasive in Scripture is the theme of divine responsiveness. But our conclusion should not be to deny God’s exhaustive sovereignty and foreknowledge. Rather, we should see him as even more sovereign than we had thought before: ruling not only from a timeless transcendent realm, but also as temporally omnipresent, existing in and with all the changing events of nature and history, using the give and take of history to accomplish his unchangeable eternal purpose, ruling immanently as the Lord.


God’s Exhaustive Knowledge of the Future

We have seen, therefore, that the divine responsiveness noted in Scripture does not refute belief in God’s eternal decree and exhaustive foreknowledge. But does Scripture give positive testimony to God’s exhaustive foreknowledge?

Scripture typically shows us God’s knowledge of the future by the phenomenon of prophecy. One aspect of prophecy is the prediction of future events. Indeed, one test of a true prophet is that his predictions must come true (Deut. 18:22). In Isaiah, God challenges the gods of the other nations to foretell the future, knowing that only he is able to do this (Isa. 41:21-23, 42:9, 43:9-12, 44:7, 46:10, 48:3-7).

Open theists agree that there is a predictive element in prophecy, but they insist that this predictive element does not imply that God has exhaustive foreknowledge. To show this, they enumerate three types of prophecy:

A prophecy may express God’s intention to do something in the future irrespective of creaturely decision. If God’s will is the only condition required for something to happen, if human cooperation is not involved, then God can unilaterally guarantee its fulfillment, and he can announce it ahead of time…

A prophecy may also express God’s knowledge that something will happen because the necessary conditions for it have been fulfilled and nothing could conceivably prevent it. But the time God foretold Pharaoh’s behavior to Moses, the ruler’s character may have been so rigid that it was entirely predictable…

A prophecy may also express what God intends to do if certain conditions obtain. [30]

I agree that in Scripture there are prophecies of all these kinds. I discussed conditional prophecies earlier, and of course I concede that God can announce his own actions independent of creaturely decision. [31] The second kind of prophecy that Rice mentions ought to be troubling to open theists, because (as I mentioned earlier in regard to Boyd’s interpretation of Judas) it suggests that some human decisions (Pharaoh’s, in the quote from Rice) are morally responsible even though they are clearly not free in the libertarian sense. It is odd to see open theists speaking of “necessary conditions†for someone’s behavior and using terms like “rigid†and “entirely predictableâ€Ââ€â€deterministic language, in support of a libertarian view of things! Of course, for open theists, Pharaoh and Judas harden themselves before their hardening becomes irreversible, that is, before God hardens them. Nevertheless, even the open theists must admit that, once the hardening has taken place, God holds these people responsible for actions they could not have avoided.

I believe, however, that, besides prophecies of these kinds, there are others that (1) do not merely state divine intentions but depend for their fulfillment on human choices, (2) imply that God’s decision determines those human choices, and (3) are not merely conditional.

Consider, as examples, the early prophecies of the history of God’s people, given by God to Noah (Gen. 9:26-27), Abraham (Gen. 15:13-16), Isaac (Gen. 27:27-29, 39-40), Jacob (Gen. 49:1-28, Balaam (Num. 23-24), and Moses (Deut. 32:1-43, 33:1-29). Here God announces (categorically, not conditionally), many centuries ahead of time, the character and history of the patriarchs and their descendants. These prophecies anticipate countless free decisions of human beings, long before any had the opportunity to form their own character.

In 1 Sam. 10:1-7, the prophet Samuel tells King Saul that after he leaves Samuel he will meet three men, and later a group of prophets. Samuel tells him precisely what the three men will be carrying and the events of the trip. Clearly here God through Samuel anticipates in detail the free decisions of the unnamed men and prophets, as well as the events of the journey. Compare a similarly detailed account of an enemy’s war movements in Jer. 37:6-11.

In 1 Kings 13:1-4, God through a prophet tells the wicked King Jeroboam that God will later raise up a faithful king, Josiah by name. This prophecy occurs three hundred years before the actual birth of King Josiah. Compare references in Isa. 44:28-45:13 to the Persian King Cyrus over a hundred years before Cyrus’s birth. [32] Many marriages, many combinations of sperm and egg, many human decisions are necessary in order for these precise individuals to be conceived, born, raised to the throne, and to fulfill these prophecies. These texts assume that God knows how all these contingencies will be fulfilled. The same is true of Jer. 1:5, in which God knows Jeremiah before he is in the womb and appoints him as a prophet. Compare also the conversation between Elisha and the Syrian Hazael in 2 Kings 8:12, and the detailed future chronology in Dan. 9:20-27 of the affairs of empires and the coming of the Messiah.

Scripture is not unclear as to how God gets this extraordinary knowledge. God knows, as I said earlier, because he controls all the events of nature and history by his own wise plan. God has made everything according to his wisdom (Psm. 104:24), and he works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will (Eph. 1:11). Therefore, God knows all about the starry heavens (Gen. 155, Psm. 147:4, Isa. 40:26, Jer. 33:22) and about the tiniest details of the natural world (Psm. 50:10-11, 56:8, Matt. 10:30). “God knows†is an oath-like utterance (2 Cor. 11:11, 2:2-3) that certifies the truth of human words on the presupposition that God’s knowledge is exhaustive, universal, and infallible. God’s knowledge is absolute knowledge, a perfection; so it elicits religious praise (Psm. 139:17-18, Isa. 40:28, Rom. 11:33-36).

So God “knows everything†(1 John 3:20). And,

Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account. (Heb. 4:13).

Does that knowledge include exhaustive knowledge of the future? Given the inadequacy of the open theist arguments, the strong emphasis in Scripture on God’s unique knowledge of the future, and the biblical teaching that God’s plan encompasses all of history, we must say yes.
 
It dawned on me that I should include this as well.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[1] Clark Pinnock, “Systematic Theology,†in Pinnock, et al., The Openness of God (Downers Grove: Inter-Varsity Press, 1994, henceforth OG), 121-24.

[2] John Sanders, The God Who Risks: A Theology of Providence (Downers Grove: Inter-Varsity Press, 1998), 132-33.

[3] Pinnock, op. cit., 122.

[4] Richard Rice, “Biblical Support for a New Perspective,†in OG, 26-35.

[5] John Sanders, “Historical Considerations,†in OG, 59.

[6] For the connection between open theism and Socinianism, see Robert B. Strimple, “What Does God Know?†in John Armstrong, ed., The Coming Evangelical Crisis (Chicago: Moody Press, 1996), 140-41 and Ben Merkle’s essay in the present volume. Sanders doesn’t mention the Socinians in his “Historical Considerations,†OG. 59-100.

[7] Gregory Boyd, in The God of the Possible (Grand Rapids: Baker, 2000), 116, says, “No ecumenical creed of the orthodox church has ever included an article of faith on divine foreknowledge,†implying that the whole matter is an open question for Christianity. If by “ecumenical†creed we mean creeds like the Apostles’ and Nicene that are accepted by all branches of Christianity, Boyd here makes a correct historical observation. But those ecumenical creeds are rather brief. They don’t include articles on justification, for example. If we move ahead to the Reformation period, however, we encounter the Westminster Confession of Faith, which says that “In [God’s] sight all things are open and manifest, His knowledge is infinite, infallible, and independent upon the creature, so as nothing is to Him contingent, or uncertain†(2.2), and the Confession reinforces this view of God’s knowledge with its view of God’s decree (3), creation (4), providence (5), free will (9), and effectual calling (10). For the Reformed tradition, at least, the extent of God’s foreknowledge is not an open question.

[8] There are, besides libertarianism, other theological senses of freedom and free will. Moral freedom, for example, is freedom from the bondage of sin, given by God’s grace (John 8:32-36, Rom. 6:7, 18-22, 8:2). Compatibilist freedom (so called because it is compatible with determinism) is the freedom to act according to one’s own nature and desires. Scripture affirms the existence of freedom in these senses, but not in the libertarian sense.

[9] Open theist William Hasker defines libertarian freedom as the view that “an agent is free with respect to a given action at a given time if at that time it is within the agent’s power to perform the action and also in the agent’s power to refrain from the action.†Hasker, “A Philosophical Perspective,†in OG, 136-37. Italics his.

[10] For a longer discussion of libertarian freedom, see R. K. McGregor Wright, No Place for Sovereignty (Downers Grove: Inter-Varsity Press, 1996), 43-62.

[11] Traditional Arminianism tries to hold both libertarianism and exhaustive divine foreknowledge. In this respect, open theism is more logical than traditional Arminianism, but it pays a high theological price for its superior logic.

[12] Sanders, The God Who Risks, 198-99.

[13] I may have missed something, of course, but in the major writings of the open theists I have yet to find a serious argument for libertarian freedom. These authors express much distaste for views like Calvinism that deny such freedom, and they speak glowingly of the freshness, spontaneity, creativity, newness, etc. that libertarianism brings us. They also mention some Scripture passages that I will discuss below, but there is always a great leap from the text to the libertarian conclusion. They also suggest (see following note) that libertarianism is necessary to moral responsibility; but they offer no argument to that effect.

[14] Pinnock, op. cit., 121.

[15] For a more thorough discussion of God’s sovereign control over free agents and the inadequacies of libertarianism, see my forthcoming Doctrine of God (Phillipsburg: P&R Publishers), especially Chapters 4, 8 (with 15 arguments against libertarianism), 14, and 16. I can only scratch the surface in this article, because I must focus on the issue of divine foreknowledge rather than on divine sovereignty in general. Much should be added, however, concerning election, reprobation, effectual calling, regeneration, and illumination, all of which presuppose God’s full sovereignty over human decisions. See also various Reformed systematic theologies on these subjects.

[16] For more examples, see Ex. 34:24, Num. 23-24, Judg. 7:22, 1 Kings 13:1-3, Ezra 6:22, Jer. 1:5, Dan. 1:9. God also foreordains sinful actions (Ex. 3:19, 4:21, 7:3, Deut. 2:30, Josh. 11:18-20, 1 Kings 12:15, Psm. 105:24, Isa. 6:9-10, 63:17, Rev. 17:17), including the betrayal and crucifixion of Jesus (Luke 22:22, John 6:64, 70-71, 13:18-19, 17:12, Acts 2:23, 4:28, 13:27). Human actions begin in the heart (Matt. 7:15-20, Luke 6:43-45), and the human heart is in God’s hands (Psm. 33:15, Prov. 21:1). People with sinful hearts cannot please God (Rom. 8:8). Their wills are not, therefore, indifferent to righteousness or sin. Faith, the human decision to believe in Christ, is a gift of God (John 6:37, 44, 65, Acts 13:48, 16:14). Those believe who are “appointed to eternal life†(Acts 13:48). Plainly God’s appointment implies that their choice was not indifferent.

[17] The reference to God’s purpose clearly indicates that God knows what he is doing. If God’s plan governs all things past, present, and future, then his knowledge extends just as broadly.

[18] Incredibly, neither Sanders, The God Who Risks, nor Gregory Boyd, God of the Possible, lists Eph. 1:11 in the Scripture index. Boyd doesn’t list Rom. 11:36 or Lam. 3:37-38 either. Sanders discusses the general contexts of the Romans and Lamentations passages, but he does not mention the indications there of the universality of God’s controlling plan.

[19] Boyd, op. cit., 38.

[20] Since Scripture never mentions libertarian freedom it obviously does not place upon it the value that Arminians and open theists ascribe to it. Open theists place such a high value on libertarian freedom that they are willing to sacrifice almost any other theological concept to accommodate it. It is the grid that governs what other theological statements are and are not acceptable. But they have no justification in valuing so highly a concept that Scripture doesn’t even mention.

[21] Calvinists and other anti-libertarians often make this point in colorful ways. James H. Thornwell says, “As well might a weather-cock be held responsible for its lawless motions as a being whose arbitrary, uncontrollable will is his only law,†Collected Writings II (Edinburgh: Banner of Truth, 1974), 180. R. E. Hobart, arguing a secular form of determinism, says, “In proportion as [a person’s action] is undetermined, it is just as if his legs should suddenly spring up and carry him off where he did not prefer to go,†in “Free Will as Involving Determinism and Inconceivable Without It,†Mind 43 (Jan., 1934), 7.

[22] For a more thorough discussion, see my Doctrine of God, especially Chapter 22.

[23] If it were, it would show God’s ignorance of the present, not the future. But open theists usually claim that God knows the present exhaustively.

[24] If in Gen. 3:9, 11:5 and 18:20-21 God’s “finding†presupposes divine ignorance, then it is ignorance about the present, not only of the future. Open theists don’t (to my knowledge) use these verses as examples of divine ignorance, because they believe that God does have exhaustive knowledge of the present. But if Gen. 11:5 and 18:20-21 can be explained without assuming divine ignorance, the same is certainly true of the other passages.

[25] Douglas Wilson comments on Gen. 8:1, “then God remembered Noahâ€Â: “Does God smack his forehead in this passage? ‘Oh, yeah! Noah!’ Or in Exodus 6:5: ‘Man, that was close! I almost forgot. The covenant!†See Wilson, Knowledge, Foreknowledge and the Gospel (Moscow, ID: Canon Press, 1997), 39. Neither Sanders nor Boyd in the books previously cited includes Gen. 8:1 or Ex. 6:5 in his Scripture index. Sanders (not Boyd) describes the rainbow of Gen. 9:14-16 as God’s “reminder to himself,†suggesting at least that God might otherwise have forgotten his plan. But such an idea impugns, not God’s knowledge of the future, but his knowledge of the past, despite the open theists’ affirmations that God’s knowledge of the past is exhaustive.

[26] In these passages, relent is typically the Hebrew nacham, which can also be translated “be grieved†or “be sorry.â€Â

[27] Indeed, it is part of the meaning of God’s covenant name Yahweh. Notice how Joel 2:13 and Jonah 4:1-2 refer to the exposition of the divine name in Ex. 34:6, 7.

[28] Not all, of course. Some prophecies explicitly exclude such conditions, as Jer. 7:15, Amos 1:3, 6, 9, Isa. 45:23, etc. Sometimes God guarantees the unconditional fulfillment of a prophecy by oath, as Psm. 110:1, Isa. 14:24, 54:9, etc. (compare Ezek. 5:11, 14:16, etc.) For an excellent account of conditional prophecy by a Reformed Old Testament scholar, see Richard Pratt, “Historical Contingencies and Biblical Predictions,†available at http://www.thirdmill.org.

[29] God “responds†to creation even when there are no human beings around. After he creates light in Gen 1, he responds by evaluating it as good and by naming the light and the darkness. We can see that any time God acts in history, in the creation, he will act responsively. In God’s acts within creation, there is always “give and take.â€Â

[30] Rice, op. cit., 51.

[31] On my view, of course, creaturely decisions are themselves the result of God’s decisions.

[32] I am assuming, of course, that Scripture is accurate in its account of when these events take place. If Scripture is God’s Word, then we must assume such accuracy, contrary to the usual approach of liberal Bible critics.
 
Now if people are free in the libertarian sense, then human decisions are radically unpredictable. Even God cannot know them in advance. If in 1930 God knew that I would be writing this article in 2000, then I would not be writing it freely. I could not avoid writing it. So if my writing is a free choice in the libertarian sense, even God cannot have been certain of it in advance.
I think that Frame is wrong here - even though I have leanings to open theism, I believe (emphasize believe) that the prevailing wisdom among philosophers and logicians is that free will and exhaustive foreknowledge are indeed compatible. I do not know how the rest of Frame's argument hangs on what I believe is an erroneous view about this matter. Please consider the following post by a now departed poster who, in the context of the post, is actually trying to talk me (Drew) out of my belief that foreknowledge and free will are incompatible. I have now changed my mind - I think the following argument is sound and shows that foreknowledge and free will are indeed not at odds as I think Frame is asserting:

Not_Registered said:
I do not believe that God's foreknowledge eliminates our ability to freely choose. William Lane Craig discusses this in part of one of his books. The following section is taken (either indirectly or verbatim) from William Lane Craig's Time and Eternity (pp. 256-263).

*****beginning of input from Craig*****

Under the section "The Compatibility of Divine Foreknowledge and Future Contingents" Craig discusses the errors fatalist make. A fatalist holds the same, or at least a similar, view that you seem to hold Drew, namely, that God's foreknowledge causes everything we do to be done necessarily thus creating merely an illusion of free will. Craig asks that we let "x" stand for any event, and then offers the following argument (from a fatalist standpoint):
Necessarily, If God foreknows x, then x will happen.

God foreknows x.

Therefore, x will necessarily happen.
Craig indicates that, based on the conclusion, that x will necessarily happen, it follows that x is not a contingent event. Because x is non-contingent (or not contingent on anything), it follows that x is not contingent on our choices, which in turn annihilates free will.

However, Craig says that the conclusion (3) is not the correct conclusion, and that the argument is logically fallacious. The correct conclusion should be: (3') Therefore, x will happen.

Craig says, "It is correct that in a valid, deductive argument the conclusion follows necessarily from the premises; that is to say, it is impossible for the premises to be true and the conclusion to be false. But the conclusion itself need not be necessary. The fatalist illicitly transfers the necessity of the inference to the conclusion itself." In short, the conclusion must necessarily follow, but it need not be necessary itself.

A major mistake fatalist make is their, as Craig states, "conflation of certainty with necessity." Given God's foreknowledge, He knows for certain what will certainly happen, but that does not mean future events are necessary.

*****end of input from Craig*****

To commit the logical fallacy which Craig discussed would be like saying (i) Sue is taller than Karen; (ii) Necessarily, if Joey is taller than Sue, then Joey is taller than Karen; (iii) Joey is taller than Sue; (iv) Therefore, Joey is necessarily taller than Karen. But, it is not true that Joey must (or necessarily) be taller than Karen. Joey could have been shorter than Karen and Sue. The correct conclusion is: (iv') Therefore, Joey is taller than Karen.

A better way to say this is the conclusion must necessarily follow the premises, but the conclusion is not necessary in and of itself. I think a good analogy to God's foreknowledge is our knowledge of past events. We know that x happened in the past, but that doesn't mean x necessarily happened. We have knowledge of x; therefore, it necessarily follows that x happened, but x wasn't necessary itself. It happened; therefore, we are certain that it happened. But, it was not necessary that it happen.

It is similar for God's foreknowledge. Aside from knowing what did happen, God knows what will happen, but that doesn't mean it must happen necessarily. Just as our knowledge of the past event did not necessitate its happening, God's knowledge of future events doesn't necessitate their happening. If a past event would have happened differently our knowledge of it would have been different, so it is not necessary that the past event happen. But, if we know that it happened then it certainly (not necessarily) happened. Similarly, if we were to act differently in the future God would have possessed the knowledge of that action instead, so our future is not necessary. But, from God's perspective (because He knows it already) it is certain. The past is what has happened for certain, but not necessarily. The future is what will happen. We determine the future (through free will), but we cannot change the future, because the future is what will happen. As Craig says, "To change the future would be to bring it about that an event which will occur will not occur, which is self-contradictory." To us the future is unknown, but to God it is known. Thus, one can propose God as the answer to the age-old question, "Who holds the future?"
 
Pinnock says:

"However, omniscience need not mean exhaustive foreknowledge of all future events. If that were its meaning, the future would be fixed and determined, much as is the past. Total knowledge of the future would imply a fixity of events. Nothing in the future would need to be decided. It also would imply that human freedom is an illusion, that we make no difference and are not responsible." [14]

He is saying that God cannot know the future exhaustively, because if he did we would not have libertarian freedom.
Although I lean towards open theism, I do not think that Pinnock's reasoning is correct, if Frame is indeed representing it correctly (and it seems that he is, the above quote from Pinnock is quite clear).

I submit that if Pinnock is saying "that God cannot know the future exhaustively, because if he did we would not have libertarian freedom", he is incorrect and I refer the reader to the argument that I posted in my post above. If Pinnock is in fact wrong, it remains to be seen how this "error" on the part of Pinnock (if I am right to call it such) affects the rest of the argument from Frame.
 
I know you are no finished reading, Drew. I just wanted to put this out in response to Craig's view.

God's Foreknowledge and Free-Will
By Stephen Charnock
From The Existence and Attributes of God, vol. 1, pp. 439-451.

God knows all future contingencies, that is, God knows all things that shall accidentally happen, or, as we say, by chance; and he knows all the free motions of men’s wills that shall be to the end of the world. If all things be open to him (Heb. iv. 13), then all contingencies are, for they are in the number of things; and as, according to Christ’s speech, those thing’s that are impossible to man, are possible to God, so those things which are unknown to man, are known to God; because of the infinite fullness and perfection of the divine understanding. Let us see what a contingent is. That is contingent which we commonly call accidental, as when a tile falls suddenly upon a man’s head as he is walking in the street; or when one letting off a musket at random shoots another he did not intend to hit; such was that arrow whereby Ahab was killed, shot by a soldier at a venture (1 kings 22:39); this some call a mixed contingent, made up partly of necessity, and partly of accident; it is necessary the bullet, when sent out of the gun, or arrow out of the bow, should fly and land somewhere; but it is an accident that it hits this or that man, that was never intended by the archer. Other things, as voluntary actions, are purely contingents, and have nothing of necessity in them; all free actions that depend upon the will of man, whether to do, or not to do, are of this nature, because they depend not upon a necessary cause, as burning does upon the fire, moistening upon water, or as descent or falling down is necessary to a heavy body; for those cannot in their own nature do otherwise; but the other actions depend upon a free agent, able to turn to this or that point, and determine himself as he pleases. Now we must know, that what is accidental in regard of the creature, is not so in regard of God; the manner of Ahab’s death was accidental, in regard of the hand by which he was slain, but not in regard of God who foretold his death, and foreknew the shot, and directed the arrow; God was not uncertain before of the manner of his fall, nor hovered over the battle to watch for an opportunity to accomplish his own prediction; what may be or not be, in regard of us, is certain in regard of God; to imagine that what is accidental to us, is so to God, is to measure God by our short line. How many events following upon the results of princes in their counsels, seem to per-sons, ignorant of those counsels, to be a haphazard, yet were not contingencies to the prince and his assistants, but foreseen by him as certainly to issue so as they do, which they knew before would be the fruit of such causes and instruments they would knit together! That may be necessary in regard of God’s foreknowledge, which is merely accidental in regard of the natural disposition of the immediate causes which do actually produce it; contingent in its own nature, and in regard of us, but fixed in the knowledge of God. One illustrates it by this similitude; a master sends two servants to one and the same place, two several ways, unknown to one another; they meet at the place which their master had appointed them; their meeting is accidental to them, one knows not of the other, but it was foreseen by the master that they should so meet; and that in regard of them it would seem a mere accident, till they came to explain the business to one another; both the necessity of their meeting, in regard of their master’s order, and the accidental-ness of it in regard of themselves, were in both their circumstances foreknown by the master that employed them. For the clearing of this, take it in this method.

to read the rest, which is very intersting, click the link below.

http://www.mbrem.com/calvinism/foreknowcharnock.htm
 
If God knows everything why did he ask the following questions in genesis chapter 3 ?

Where art thou ? (Adam)
Who told thee that thou wast naked ? (Adam)
Hast thou eaten of the tree ? (Adam)
What is this that thou hast done ? (Eve)
Because thou hast done this, (Serpent)

with love and respect, Andy153
 
Scripture does speak of God determining the choices of human beings.

In Proverbs, the writer declares, “To man belong the plans of the heart, but from the LORD comes the reply of the tongue… In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps†(Prov. 16:1, 9).
Here is Proverbs 16:1-9 in the NIV, I have added the bolding:

1 To man belong the plans of the heart,
but from the LORD comes the reply of the tongue.

2 All a man's ways seem innocent to him,
but motives are weighed by the LORD.

3 Commit to the LORD whatever you do,
and your plans will succeed.

4 The LORD works out everything for his own endsâ€â€
even the wicked for a day of disaster.

5 The LORD detests all the proud of heart.
Be sure of this: They will not go unpunished.

6 Through love and faithfulness sin is atoned for;
through the fear of the LORD a man avoids evil.

7 When a man's ways are pleasing to the LORD,
he makes even his enemies live at peace with him.

8 Better a little with righteousness
than much gain with injustice.

9 In his heart a man plans his course,
but the LORD determines his steps

I actually think this text supports the opposite conclusion from that of Frame. How would Frame respond to the connotations of libertarian free will contained in the phrases that have been rendered in bold? These phrases contain implications of libertarian free will. I cannot emphasize the following enough: when we (in our culture anyway) say that Fred "plans" or that Fred "commits" or that Fred has "motives", there is indeed the implicit belief that he is free to do so. We never say "Fred plans to buy beer" but really mean "As determined by an external agent, Fred creates a plan for beer-buying".

The very nature of our language requires that when we say "Fred plans", Fred is the subject, Fred is the one doing the planning. To suggest that there is some external agent "pulling the strings" is awkward and totally at odds with the societal convention that when we say "Fred plans" we indeed mean that "Fred plans"

I think my point here is best summed up as follows: In our culture (and I suspect in the culture from which the scriptures arose) the dominant societal paradigm involved a belief in humans as free will agents. This affects the meaning that we ascribe to statements like "Fred plans" - their very meaning embodies an implicit commitment to free will action on the part of the subject.

I think that the person who rejects libertarain free will expects us to believe that when the writer of Proverbs talks about a "man planning", we are to understand that it is really God doing the planning. But then why not say this?
 
Hi lovely:

I only read the material that was in your post. I think it has nothing to do with Craig's argument. To me, the material from Charnock basically says "what seems random to us is actually not and is really God working in the seeming randomness to work out his purposes".

1. Charnok clearly says that God knows all things. Craig does not dispute this.

2. Charnock takes the opposite position to Frame when Charnock says "he knows all the free motions of men’s wills".

I think it is clear that Charnock believes in libertarian free will and is simply saying that God can know the future exhaustively despite this. I have no problem with this, I don't think Craig would have a problem with it, and I am surprised that it would be posted by you, since Charnock contradicts Frame.

To be fair, I have not read the rest of the material.
 
Open theist Gregory Boyd seeks to mitigate the implications of the fact that Jesus predicted Judas’ betrayal (John 6:64, 70-71, 13:18-19, 17:12). But he concedes the heart of the matter:

Scripture elsewhere teaches that a dreadful time may come when God discerns that it is useless to strive with a particular individual or a group of people any longer. At this point, he withdraws his Spirit from these people, hardens their hearts, and thus seals their destinies (e.g. Gen. 6:3; Rom. 1:24-27). [19]

Clearly Judas’ decision to betray Jesus was not free in the libertarian sense. He was not then equally able to choose either alternative. Boyd implies that many human decisions are not free in this sense.
OK, but all that Boyd is conceding is that sometimes (and perhaps quite infrequently) God intervenes and "takes over the free will controls". My understanding of open theism never denied this.

As long as Judas was free to "start down that fateful road", the fact that he may have inevitably been "forced" by God to betray Jesus does not take away his responsibility - and it is his free will in his "starting down that road" that makes him responsible.
 
Judas is fully responsible for his betrayal of Christ, though we saw above that it was not a free act in the libertarian sense.
Totally agree, for the reasons stated in my previous post. But Frame has only shown that sometimes acts are not free. And, if I may be presumptuous, he (Frame) might be trying to "slip one past" the reader. Hopefully Frames is not trying make an argument of the form:

"see, Judas is responsible for his betrayal and it was not a free act...Therefore denying free will does not deny human responsibility"

This type of argument would be easilty countered by the claim that prior free will acts on the part of Judas put him (Judas) in the position where he was not free.
 
Hi Drew,

Okay, this is my second time writing this post because I lost the first one. Anyway, I am going to try again.

1. I agree with Frame mostly here, I will not deny that.

2. I think there are things that Frame is not saying, and I will address your Proverbs Scripture because of that.

3. Charnock does believe in free will, and I used him because I agree with him too, and I will explain that further.


Frame

I think Frame makes a good point that claim that just because actions have a cause does not mean that we are free from the responsibility of that action. He uses Judas as an example, and our own courts. I believe that the causing stems from Adam's sin which has left us in a fallen nature. I will explain more in my conclusion about this. So, I think Judas sinned because of His fallen nature, and his own will to feely sin, and by God directing his steps within the framework of his own will. We see that the three are true by our state of sin, Judas' own guilt which causes him to say he is sorry, and by God's prophecy coming true concering Judas' betrayal of Christ.


Proverbs 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course,
but the LORD determines his steps.


I believe that libertarian free will, as Adam new it, is not what we have. God created Adam with a free will to do good, or evil. Adam was tempted, and chose, freely, to sin. God knew that Adam would, yet He chose to create Him anyway, and with a free will. Man, due to Adam, is in a fallen nature. Man freely chooses to sin, and is guilty of that sin, but man is also bound to that sinful nature, due to Adam. God knew all of this, and provided us with a Redeemer, freely, and lovingly. Man is responsible for his plans, motives, and heart, but God directs His steps. Did God direct me to write this post? Yes. Did God allow me freedom to write in with my own motives behind it? Yes. Did God know that I was going to write this post? Yes. I believe yes to all of them, and I believe they are all compatable. I will say more about this in my conclusion as well.

Charnock

Charnock explains the created nature of man very well, and he also explains how God directs the steps of man very well. He understands that God's knowledge of the future didn't cause man to sin, but he also balances that with God's Providence, and direction, of man's footsteps.

I do not think that Charnock believes in libertarian free will in the sense that man can choose to save himself, and I do not think that he believes one can loose their salvation. Unless I am mistaken, I think Craig does.


Conclusion

He (Charnock) says that man will freely choose to love God for all eternity. I am drawing the conclusion that this is because of man's new nature in Christ. He loves God, through the action of the Holy Spirit bearing witness of Christ in an effectual, and irresistable, way, but then feely loves in that belief because of His new nature, and he can not, not love God. Therefore it is eternal. (hence, we can not loose our salvation) This is where our motives can feely do things for Christ, after we believe, and it is counted for righteousness. In contrast, I believe that while we are in a fallen nature we can freely choose to sin, and do good, but our motives are evil (vain), and we can not seek God in this state. This good, is not in God (in belief), and not counted for righteousness...though I do believe that there are natural blessings built into nature for following God's principals. Man can not choose to change his nature, only God can do that...though there is an element of free will built into it, it is not like Adam's was, because of Adam's choice. And, even after God gives us a new nature in Christ, we are still bound to our fallen flesh, and all that it encapsulates.

This is my own opinion, obviously. Nevertheless, I may not agree entirely with either of them, but I think both make an excellent argument against Open Theism.


I hope I have been clear, I tried to be. The Lord bless you.
 
Andy, I apologize that I did not respond to your post. I was posting in sort of a thinking out loud fashion, and was even posting over Drew, or at the same time. Anyway, I overlooked your post in the mix.

Andy wrote:
If God knows everything why did he ask the following questions in genesis chapter 3 ?

Where art thou ? (Adam)
Who told thee that thou wast naked ? (Adam)
Hast thou eaten of the tree ? (Adam)
What is this that thou hast done ? (Eve)
Because thou hast done this, (Serpent)

with love and respect, Andy153

I think that God spoke to Adam, Eve, and the Serpent in this manner to reveal their hearts with His communication. For example, God knew Adam and Eve were in the garden He had placed them in, but He also knew they were hiding. The question was to force them to reveal they were hiding.
God knew that satan was the deceiver, so He must have known that they were told by satan that they were naked, but he wanted to expose that before them...sort of a trial. God, whom they all answered to, was just in judging them, and sentencing them. I suppose these are simple terms, and maybe not fully covering the depth of your question, but I am trying to be clear. The Lord bless you.
 
lovely said:
I think Frame makes a good point that claim that just because actions have a cause does not mean that we are free from the responsibility of that action.


Lets imagine that a person crashes a car into a group of children and kills a few of them. Lets say that this happened because they had been (unknowingly) drugged by someone else, which had caused them to have passed out at the wheel. You think that the driver would be responsible for the death of the children?
 
Hi undertow,

undertow wrote:
Lets imagine that a person crashes a car into a group of children and kills a few of them. Lets say that this happened because they had been (unknowingly) drugged by someone else, which had caused them to have passed out at the wheel. You think that the driver would be responsible for the death of the children?

No, I think the person who drugged the driver should be held responsible, because the driver's motive was not to kill children. I do not think that this example fits with what Frame is truly saying, though, or that it reflects God's relationship with man.

I think It is dicussed here, in great detail, in the prior posts. Judas was a good example. He was foreknown by God to be the one who would betray Christ, and God still created him. Adam was tempted by satan, who's intent was evil. Judas, through Adam, was born into a sinful nature. He was, in his sinfulness, willing to betray Christ, and he acted upon it. It is caused, yet he is still guilty.

Do you think that God, with evil intention, cause man to sin (unknowingly), and be bound to a sinful nature?

The Lord bless you.
 
lovely said:
Judas, through Adam, was born into a sinful nature. He was, in his sinfulness, willing to betray Christ, and he acted upon it. It is caused, yet he is still guilty.

It seems to be caused by factors that Judas has no control over. (He obviously didn't have control over the fall of Adam.) If merely being born into a sinful nature is enough to guarantee that a person will commit a certain sin, so they are entirely determined by factors outside of their control, then they do not seem to me to be responsible for that sin. What would the difference be with the example that I have given? Or do you believe that Judas could have resisted his sinful nature, and that there is an element of free choice in his betraying Jesus?


lovely said:
Do you think that God, with evil intention, cause man to sin (unknowingly), and be bound to a sinful nature?

I am not sure that the motive of God is relevant to the issue. What is important I think is whether man has been put in a position that his behaviour is entirely determined.
 
lovely said:
He was foreknown by God to be the one who would betray Christ, and God still created him.


Do you believe that God could know the free choice of Judas before he was created? ("free choice" as in libertarian free will.)

Or does God have foreknowledge merely because of the fact that God determines the behaviour of Judas?
 
undertow said:
If merely being born into a sinful nature is enough to guarantee that a person will commit a certain sin, so they are entirely determined by factors outside of their control, then they do not seem to me to be responsible for that sin.
I agree entirely with what undertow is getting at here. I confess utter mystification at the view that we deserve punishment for acts and / or a nature over which we have no control. I am not entirely sure who believes this, but I do think it is incumbent on people like lovely to very precisely and squarely address this issue.

Lovely, I find it hard to understand your position, not because I necessarily disagree with it, but rather because I cannot seem to even understand what you are saying. I hope to start a thread shortly that addresses the definitional issues here - I think we need to understand what the other person is even talking about before we can even sensibly debate this matter.
 
I think we do need to define terms concerning man's will. I brought it up in another thread, and realized at that point it needs to be defined. I will wait for your thread, Drew. Undertow, if you don't mind, let's take it there, so this thread can continue on track with divine Foreknowledge. The Lord bless you both.
 
lovely wrote: “Judas, through Adam, was born into a sinful nature. He was, in his sinfulness, willing to betray Christ, and he acted upon it. It is caused, yet he is still guilty.â€Â

undertow wrote: “It seems to be caused by factors that Judas has no control over. (He obviously didn't have control over the fall of Adam.) If merely being born into a sinful nature is enough to guarantee that a person will commit a certain sin, so they are entirely determined by factors outside of their control, then they do not seem to me to be responsible for that sin. What would the difference be with the example that I have given? Or do you believe that Judas could have resisted his sinful nature, and that there is an element of free choice in his betraying Jesus?â€Â

My 2 cents: Did you ever consider that Judas was not condemned because he betrayed Christ, having been influenced by Satan to do it, but because he was a thief and didn’t have the love of God in him to begin with? Perhaps he was chosen by Christ on the same day he was slated to get pulverized by a runaway donkey cart. His being chosen to be the one to betray Christ added 3 years to his life to possibly repent and get right with God. If his miserable life hadn’t ended before, he was still destined to his fate by his lack of compassion for the poor and his willingness to do the deed.

lovely wrote: “Do you think that God, with evil intention, cause man to sin (unknowingly), and be bound to a sinful nature?â€Â
undertow wrote: “I am not sure that the motive of God is relevant to the issue. What is important I think is whether man has been put in a position that his behaviour is entirely determinedâ€Â

My 2 cents: What is really important to see is that just because God sovereignly uses a certain man for a certain purpose, good or evil, does not mean that ALL men are destined to a certain fate by God.

There is no reason to think that God is so hungry for honor and glory that he would make such a twisted scheme to display his power and sovereignty. Since God says he uses circumstances to test us and by our choices will determine our fates, why won‘t you simply believe him? Has he ever lied to you before?

People, this life is not a game. It’s not prewritten scripts for us to act out on this poor stage. It’s not a soap opera for angels. It’s not a puppet show for bored deities. It’s real challenges with real results. It’s a war. It’s a training field for spiritual warfare. It’s a series of lessons and tests. God really does want to find out if you have learned your lesson yet. When you think you’ve learned one lesson, he gives you another. When you get a little improvement, he tests you. If you pass, you get another lesson. Why do you think they call them trials and tribulations? It’s all good, it just doesn’t all feel good.
 
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