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[_ Old Earth _] do animals have consciousness?

evenifigoalone

Fare thee well, Felicia
2024 Supporter
What does science have to say about this?
I tend to think that animals are too complex not to have some form of consciousness, especially having pets myself. Some dog breeds are said to have the intelligence of a three year old child (Poodles and Border Collies, I believe). They do tend to be less concerned with stuff that doesn't have to do with their own survival than we do.
We generally agree that plants don't have consciousness, it seems, though I have seen some argue otherwise...all it really amounts to, though, is "you can't prove they don't".

The "leanback" mentioned in this video had a video in the playlist that was about an experiment done on animals, but the video had been removed by the user. (I hate it when that happens, grrr.)
 
There are case studies showing animals morn for the loss of another. And regardless of case studies, anyone who has a pet can give more then enough to answer yes to the question.
 
What does science have to say about this?
I tend to think that animals are too complex not to have some form of consciousness, especially having pets myself. Some dog breeds are said to have the intelligence of a three year old child (Poodles and Border Collies, I believe). They do tend to be less concerned with stuff that doesn't have to do with their own survival than we do.
We generally agree that plants don't have consciousness, it seems, though I have seen some argue otherwise...all it really amounts to, though, is "you can't prove they don't".

The "leanback" mentioned in this video had a video in the playlist that was about an experiment done on animals, but the video had been removed by the user. (I hate it when that happens, grrr.)

I would think they do have "consciousness" as the LORD created many with Nephesh...(usually translated soul). They certainly have "awareness" which is a form of consciousness. Other primates certainly demonstrate the ability to make primary "choice". But for me the question would be "Do they have awareness of their awareness?" We certainly do.

We see awareness as an aspect of our self and thus we can shape and control it to some degree. They cannot. We can use it like a tool to see abstract possibility and form symbolic forms of expression with unique meaning that requires explanation others can grasp once explained (neither aspect is possible or at least ever been demonstrated in the animal kingdom...humans being like calculus compared to animals being like the simple counting numbers...see what I mean?). Other lower forms of "animal life" are only instinct oriented for the purpose of survival and perpetuation where little or no mind is involved (IMO)....
 
Based on various scriptures which speak of, the heavens declaring God's glory, the stones themselves rising up to worship God, and other similar scriptures...I would have to postulate that animals are conscious, and not only that, but that they have a knowledge of right and wrong.

This consciousness mystery that they can't pin down (and Prolly never will) is very thought provoking. With all this new quantum physics info lately, suggesting that we live in a simulation (the matrix)...coupled with scripture's teaching that, even thinking about sinning, is in fact sinning in and of itself, then we are left with the question of, is consciousness (thoughts)...the only real and true substance that we have here on earth?
 
Ecc
21
Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
 
I would think they do have "consciousness" as the LORD created many with Nephesh...(usually translated soul). They certainly have "awareness" which is a form of consciousness. Other primates certainly demonstrate the ability to make primary "choice". But for me the question would be "Do they have awareness of their awareness?" We certainly do.

We see awareness as an aspect of our self and thus we can shape and control it to some degree. They cannot. We can use it like a tool to see abstract possibility and form symbolic forms of expression with unique meaning that requires explanation others can grasp once explained (neither aspect is possible or at least ever been demonstrated in the animal kingdom...humans being like calculus compared to animals being like the simple counting numbers...see what I mean?). Other lower forms of "animal life" are only instinct oriented for the purpose of survival and perpetuation where little or no mind is involved (IMO)....

One of the greatest divides between mankind and any given animal is language. Even among ourselves though, it's part of our history to see our culture and society as good, and a foriener's who doesn't speak the same language as something less. Barbarians, savages, and a few other terms are given to the Native Americans by the European colonists back in the day. Today we hold no excuse for that kind of thinking, but the way I see it is that our inability to communicate seperates our views of animals (and people) from being considered intelligent or show the signs of being social creatures like ourselves.

Just some thoughts. If you want some examples though, consider the behaviors of so many pets. Sometimes giving so much love, other times in spite of anger they pee on something to retaliate against us. Or consider wild birds. Always chatting with one another. Squawking, chirping, or honking like a goose. In their flocks they show signs of being very social creatures, and in their travels migrating, a person could compair them to nomads or gypsies or any other group that spend a good amount of time traveling together.
 
So your on the side that animals can know when they sin and try not to sin so they can be saved and receive the holy spirit am I right?

Wow! How you got that from what I said is a clear non-sequitur....I was just correcting that posters misunderstanding of the passage. Ecclesiastes is a secular writing of Solomon where he asks the question who knows whether they do or not...
 
Wow! How you got that from what I said is a clear non-sequitur....I was just correcting that posters misunderstanding of the passage. Ecclesiastes is a secular writing of Solomon where he asks the question who knows whether they do or not...

Animals do not "sin" since sin is a transgression of the law which was not given them...they do not require "receiving" or being "born of" His Spirit, we do....they do not consciously disobey God, we do....whether or not they get eternal life as animals is not discussed in the Bible so we CANNOT know so I have NO OPINION one way or the other....
 
Animals do not "sin" since sin is a transgression of the law which was not given them...they do not require "receiving" or being "born of" His Spirit, we do....they do not consciously disobey God, we do....whether or not they get eternal life as animals is not discussed in the Bible so we CANNOT know so I have NO OPINION one way or the other....
ok
 
The question of animal consciousness is complex, but it's clear that mammals can reason and feel emotions. Some (the great apes) are capable of inferring mental states in others, and are capable of consciously trying to deceive others.

I believe animals are innocent, since only man is recorded as having a knowledge of good and evil. Yet dogs and apes seem capable of understanding fairness. (dogs trained to do a trick for a treat, will stop performing, if they see another dog being given a better treat for the same trick).

How do we know any other entity is conscious? We can't absolutely know.

"And if I were to look inside your head, I would also see nothing but electrons," replied Klapaucius. "Come now, don't pretend not to understand what I'm saying, I know you're not that stupid! A phonograph record won't run errands for you, won't beg for mercy or fall on its knees! You say there's no way of knowing whether Excelsius's subjects groan, when beaten, purely because of the electrons hopping about inside—like wheels grinding out the mimicry of a voice—or whether they really groan, that is, because they honestly experience the pain? A pretty distinction, this! No, Trurl, a sufferer is not one who hands you his suffering, that you may touch it, weigh it, bite it like a coin; a sufferer is one who behaves like a sufferer! Prove to me here and now, once and for all, that they do not feel, that they do not think, that they do not in any way exist as being conscious of their enclosure between the two abysses of oblivion—the abyss before birth and the abyss that follows death—prove this to me, Trurl, and I'll leave you be! Prove that you only imitated suffering, and did not create it!


"You know perfectly well that's impossible," answered Trurl quietly. "Even before I took my instruments in hand, when the box was still empty, I had to anticipate the possibility of precisely such a proof—in order to rule it out. For otherwise the monarch of that kingdom sooner or later would have gotten the impression that his subjects were not real subjects at all, but puppets, marionettes. Try to understand, there was no other way to do it! Anything that would have destroyed in the littlest way the illusion of complete reality would have also destroyed the importance, the dignity of governing, and turned it into nothing but a mechanical game...."


"I understand, I understand all too well!" cried Klapaucius. "Your intentions were the noblest—you only sought to construct a kingdom as lifelike as possible, so similar to a real kingdom, that no one, absolutely no one, could ever tell the difference, and in this, I am afraid, you were successful! Only hours have passed since your return, but for them, the ones imprisoned in that box, whole centuries have gone by—how many beings, how many lives wasted, and all to gratify and feed the vanity of King Excelsius!"


Without another word Trurl rushed back to his ship, but saw that his friend was coming with him. When he had blasted off into space, pointed the bow between two great clusters of eternal flame and opened the throttle all the way, Klapaucius said:


"Trurl, you're hopeless. You always act first, think later. And now what do you intend to do when we get there?"


"I'll take the kingdom away from him!"


"And what will you do with it?"


"Destroy it!" Trurl was about to shout, but choked on the first syllable when he realized what he was saying. Finally he mumbled:


"I'll hold an election. Let them choose just rulers from among themselves."

"You programmed them all to be feudal lords or shiftless vassals. What good would an election do? First you'd have to undo the entire structure of the kingdom, then assemble from scratch ...""And where," exclaimed Trurl, "does the changing of structures end and the tampering with minds begin?!" Klapaucius had no answer for this, and they flew on in gloomy silence, till the planet of Excelsius came into view.
Stanislav Lem The Cyberiad; The Seventh Sally or How Trurl's Own Perfection Led to No Good
 
Everyone has the right, obviously, to draw from the personetic experiments such conclusions as he considers fitting. Dr. Ian Combay once said to me, in a private conversation, that I could, after all, assure the society of personoids of my existence. Now, this I most certainly shall not do. For it would have all the appearance to me of soliciting a sequel – that is, a reaction on their part. But what exactly could they do or say to me, that I would not feel the profound embarrassment, the painful sting of my position as their unfortunate Creator? The bills for the electricity consumed have to paid quarterly, and the moment is going to come when my university superiors demand the “wrapping up” of the experiment – that is, the disconnecting of the machine, or, in other words, the end of the world. That moment I intend to put off as long as humanely possible. It is the only thing of which I am capable, but it is not anything I consider praiseworthy. It is, rather, what in common parlance is generally called “dirty work.” Saying this, I hope that no one will get any ideas. But if he does, well, that is his business.
Stanislav Lem, Non Servium
 
Bagel, my dog, always gives herself away. She has a guilty look that is unmistakable. My problem, is that she's so funny when she realizes that she's done something wrong that it's hard to be angry with her.

I sure hope God looks on us that way.
 
There are case studies showing animals morn for the loss of another. And regardless of case studies, anyone who has a pet can give more then enough to answer yes to the question.
Elephants mourn their dead, even if it is a outside heard they will stop and mourn another dead elephant.
This mother mourned her baby for 4 days.
 
What does science have to say about this?
I tend to think that animals are too complex not to have some form of consciousness, especially having pets myself. Some dog breeds are said to have the intelligence of a three year old child (Poodles and Border Collies, I believe). They do tend to be less concerned with stuff that doesn't have to do with their own survival than we do.
We generally agree that plants don't have consciousness, it seems, though I have seen some argue otherwise...all it really amounts to, though, is "you can't prove they don't".

The "leanback" mentioned in this video had a video in the playlist that was about an experiment done on animals, but the video had been removed by the user. (I hate it when that happens, grrr.)
Yes, They have a spirit , heart and conscience. God created animals for man. everything God created was good, (He said so Himself) I believe in the beginning (before sin entered into God's creation) that man and animal could communicate with no confusion. The loyalty of animals to their masters is greater than many humans to mankind. Animals do not have the knowledge of good and evil. Any animal that is dangerous is usually made that way by man. I hope to see God face to face and all of His precious creation with Him.
 
Jesus said "as you do for the least of these, you have done it for Me." Animals have all the emotions we do, even if they aren't as smart as we are. They know love and grief and fear and joy just as we do. Only they are innocent, not knowing good or evil. Someone, after I lost a very beloved dog, told me that the love we get from a dog is like the love we get from God, complete and unconditional.
 
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