VaultZero4Me said:
I am an atheist who found this board the other day. My intention is to learn views differing than my own. I was reading a comment on "The Golden Compass" and found this quote on a website. I believe it was cited to come from a Focus On the Family article.
Baehr makes the important historical point that the logical consequences of Pullman's atheism can be found in the lives of the leading atheists of the 20th Century - Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and others. "These were men who killed millions of their own people and had no respect for justice or love. Ultimately, it is a road that only leads to meaninglessness, murder and social chaos."
My question is, do the other Christian members of this board share these sentiments? I am not trying to setup a debate. I just am interested in polling the group to see what the general consensus was.
I know many other non-believers who argue the oppsoite, that in history, christianity has equaled murder and pillaging. I do not share that view, as I believe that people act on their own accord. I think that this has been a fallacy to use as an argument for atheism, and promotes no actual discourse between the two communities. I was wondering if there were of like mind on the christian side.
I do not share the sentiments of the person quoted. Focus on the Family is a right wing political organization which likes to say inflammatory things to fill its coffers from Christian "sheep". In my opinion they are being manipulated and fleeced.
This is not to say that FOTF does no good, but it is way out of its depth when it comes to politics and science. Their thinking is muddled because they are unable to separate the church and state.
I cringe whenever I hear them speak out on behalf of Christians. When they try to talk Christianity, but their politics gets in the way and when they talk politics their Christianity gets in the way.
If we were all judged by the comments of special interest groups who stand to benefit from fanning the flames of discord then we would be seen as narrow small minded bigots and we are not.
Christianity is not about judging others. That is God's job. Christianity is about showing love, compassion and forgiveness. We are told to shun the ways of the world and to not become worldly. FOTF and some vocal Christian leaders see no difference. They no longer want to save the world by preaching the gospel, but instead want to take over the political process and make it their own. They want to legislate the morals of non-Christians and try to shove it down their throats. Unfortunately it is a big turn off to non-Christians who resent being told how to live their lives.
This comment is typical of the tactics used by FOTF and other right wing groups. Instead of discussing real issues which would reveal their inadequacy they prefer to slander and sling mud, which just shows how Christianity can be reduced to the lowest common denominator when it seeks to play politics. In this case, instead of discussing their problem with the book, they try to associate it with communism and not just any communism, but communist despots. This writer is thrown in the same league as Pol Pot who annihilated millions in Cambodia. This way they do not really have to read the book or do any research, they can just make associations in the mind of the reader. This is just yellow journalism and cheapshots and not befitting of a Christian organization, if it is indeed one.
Their point is that if we start to think freely, i.e. not listen to them, then we are communists and deserve to be thrown in with the likes of those mentioned. They have one argument which they recycle over and over. Everything is a slippery slope of liberalism to them. They take something that they don't agree with and say that it will lead to blah, blah, blah, which is usually outrageous and stupid, but people buy it.
For example, they think that if we allow gays to marry our children are all going to become gay, as if it is a contagion or glamorous lifestyle that everyone is going to sign onto, ignoring all of the statistics that homosexuality has been stable time immemorial and that most people just are not attracted to people of the same sex. Logic has no place in their debates. They play on our emotions and try to get us not to think. Many right wing Christians criticize Catholics for having the pope do their thinking for them, but see nothing wrong with asking us to allow them to filter the world for us. It saves us the trouble of following issues and doing what God wants us to do (in their eyes) which is to make money, consume and go to church.
I read on this board postings talking about Islamic extremists, but we have Christian extremists who are every bit as much as nut cases as those we condemn. The only difference is that our nut cases know how to stir us up and get our money by saying things that appeal to us. They are wolves in sheep's clothing who know how to manipulate us to strengthen their organization and not the kingdom of God. We were warned about false prophets and false teachers who can quote scripture and are reminded that even the Devil can quote the Bible for his purposes. We forget that.
I am frustrated by a non-Christian, self-admitted atheist, posting this and asking if we are all like this. Not all communists are Stalins. He killed lots of communists who did not agree with him. Also not all despots are left wing. The right wing has its own share or dictators and lunatics. We forget that Hitler killed the socialists before he killed the Jews. We forget about Franco, Marcos, the Shah of Iran, and a host of others who were fascists. No not all Christians think alike politically. We are all over the political spectrum. You only hear about the noisy ones who want to raise money.
We need to not measure all Christians by the lunatic fringe and their self serving comments. We are told to emulate Christ and not each other. Man will always fall short of the standard. Christians are not perfect, just forgiven sinners. Jesus was a man of peace, love, compassion and forgiveness. He was perfect and he could have judged the adulteress when the others would stone her. Instead he said that whoever is without sin can cast the first stone. He waited and told her to go an sin no more. He offered grace and forgiveness when the others offered judgment and condemnation. That is the way we need to treat others.
Christians are repeatedly told to love one another and to pray for our enemies. We are also told that we should not judge lest we are judged. It is all about grace. If we cannot offer grace and forgiveness to others then how can we expect it from God.
It is not a popular thing to attack FOTF on a Christian board, but they have thrown their hat into the political ring and politics is all about power and control. Politics is dirty. It is of this world. We need to remember that. When we try to gain political control then we are exercising power and influence. We are trying to dominate others and force our will on them. this was not Jesus' way.
Judging by many postings that I have read, there aren't too many left wing Christians here. That does not mean that we do not exist. They are usually bullied into silence. This board is probably predominately American. I am not, so you can take comfort in that. I cannot be accused of being unAmerican because I am not one. Americans seem to be very susceptible to this accusation. When in doubt wave the flag.
I am an ardent Christian who just happens to care about others and believes that putting others' interest ahead of my own carries over into all aspects of my life, including politics. As the saying goes politics makes strange bedfellows. Sometimes that puts me in contact with people who do not see religion the same way that I do. We share a common interest in politics which is to reduce poverty and help the sick. Working together with atheists does not make me an atheist.
Some of the men you mentioned probably were atheists. It does not follow that all communists are despots or that all despots are atheists. Hitler was not an atheist. One thing that is true about all despots is that it is easier to violate human rights if you hide behind a cause whether it be communism or Christianity.
Blessings,
Dunamite
