Do you believe in the immortality of the soul?

[Soma-Sight]

Do you believe in the doctrine of the immortality of the soul?

 

[Tofuy]

i don't believe the "soul" is in any way "ours". at best, i think it's borrowed and returned to the natural public domain, perhaps multiplied, to be used by future life. i suppose that could be considered a type of immortality.

i think the idea of a soul is wonderful and important but the whole hollywood dry-ice-cloud-coming-out-of-the-chest thing is popular fiction.

 

[Soma-Sight]

I don't understand the problem with this, the Bible is clear on this. The Soul is immortal.

So God lied to Adam when He said that he would die as a result of his sin?

Also it would appear that sinners are granted eternal life for their sins?

Interesting. I think I missed that part.

 

[Free]

Soma,

I think you are confusing two nuances of life and two nuances of death.

 

[Restin]

Do you believe in the doctrine of the immortality of the soul?

(Questions)
Do you believe in an immortal soul?
1. Yes, mans soul exists and cannot be destroyed, at death it will remain even if you sinned in life.
2. No, the wages of sin is death, and you will not live without end.

"It is written"

• Eccl 9:5-6
  5 For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten. 6 Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun.
  
  Eccl 12:6-8
  6 Remember Him before the silver cord is broken and the golden bowl is crushed, the pitcher by the well is shattered and the wheel at the cistern is crushed; 7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.
  NASU. w/emphasis supplied

AMEN & AMEN!

..........Restin

 

[philbo]

Are those the only choices?

 

[guibox]

I don't understand the problem with this, the Bible is clear on this. The Soul is immortal.

I guess some might fear the ever burning bit, and are more comfortable with soul death.

Samuel.

No the Bible is not clear on this. As a matter of fact there is such little evidence in the scripture to support 'soul immortality' that Protestants should be embarassed to spout off such Catholic nonsense and call it biblical.

Let's look at the word 'soul' in the Bible shall we?

I. The Soul in the Bible

Definition: In the Bible, "soul" is translated from the Hebrew “nepheshâ€Â, and the Greek “psucheâ€Â. To many people "soul" means the immaterial or spirit part of a human being that survives the death of the physical body. But this view is not what the Bible teaches.

And the Lord God formed man out of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul. - Genesis 2:7,8

Notice that it says that man “became†a living soul. Not that man has one.
The word soul means ‘person, being’ and in some cases ‘life’. We say the poem “Old King Cole was a merry old soul†and the phrase “There’s not a soul aroundâ€Â. Nowhere in the scriptures is this soul immortal. Rather:

The soul that sinneth shall die – Ezekiel 18:20

More modern translations say this, “It is the man who sins who will dieâ€Â. This is because the whole person was a soul. The Bible definition for soul is varied. In some places it speaks of the soul as a living person, in other places as the life of an individual, and in other places it refers to animals. The soul is also used to express the emotion, love or affection of an individual. Nowhere is the term used to indicate a separate entity or conscious existence after death.

What happens when the ‘soul sins and dies�

His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth, in that very day his thoughts perish – Psalms 146:4

For the living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything. Neither have they anymore a reward for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, hatred and envy is now perished…Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might. For there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in the grave, where you go – Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10

His sons come to honor, and he knoweth it not, and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them – Job 14:21

The concept of an immortal soul was foreign to the Hebrews. Man was a wholistic being, a composite made up of parts that were all dependant of the other. Body, breath (spirit) which gives life (becomes a soul)

But what about Genesis 35:18?

And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing (for she died) that she called his name Benoni

When the OT says that 'her soul was departing', it means that her 'life left her'. This is reiterated in the addendum "for she died". You cannot take a foreign view and try to interpret it into verse.

The NT is not any different. Rather we see that the hope of eternal life was dependent on the resurrection, and not on a soul surviving death (1 Corinthians 15; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16; 1I Timothy 4:6-8; John 6:40-47; John 5:28,29; Job 14:12,13; Daniel 12:2)

We also see from these verses and others that rewards are given at the end of time and not at death (Revelation 22:12; Matthew 13:40-42; II Peter 3:7; II Peter 2:9; Job 21:30,32). Wicked souls cannot be tormented for there sins now if they are in their graves awaiting their judicial punishment for those sins. Do do so does not make God a fair, just God. It also contradicts scripture and finds no support (other than, seemingly, ONE parable in Luke 16 which many take as absolute gospel)

Other than two or three ambiguous texts, taken out of context and not used in conjuction with the rest of scripture, there is no indication that man survives death until the resurrection in the NT. You cannot take one or two texts and base a theology around it when the rest of scripture is saying something else. The Bible must be taken in totality and used to explain itself.

 

[stovebolts]

Notice that it says that man “became†a living soul. Not that man has one.
The word soul means ‘person, being’ and in some cases ‘life’. We say the poem “Old King Cole was a merry old soul†and the phrase “There’s not a soul aroundâ€Â. Nowhere in the scriptures is this soul immortal. Rather:

Hello Mate :wink: couldn't help the translation... :

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The word soul in this passage is actually "CHYYM" or, "Chayiym" which is in the PLURAL... Hence translated "Souls"... To be more specific.

The way I understand this verse to speak would be...
God breathed into Adam LIFE (in the Plural I.E. Lives). Hence, Eve was created out of Adam. Therefore, Cain and Able were created out of both Adam and Eve. Thereby extending the "Breath" :wink:

Neshama = breath or wind. Hence, you are your neshama and neshama is your soul. Neshama derives from Nesham which is to blow away. You could say that we are a neshama, but it came from God’s Nesham (Explosion, great force, wind) that was given to Adam.

The Hebrew word for Image is tselem. Tselem is nothing more than a shadow when you really break the word down. So, we are really a shadow of God. Let me pause for a moment and try and fully understand that concept the way the Hebrews would have read that. As complex as the human race is in every aspect, we are but a mere shadow of God

An interesting study and read can be found here from a post I made back in feb to verify my finding... Hebrew Study of Gen 2:7

Soo... The soul is a bit more than Old King Cole :bday:

 

[Soma-Sight]

guibox,

Nice scriptural support you have there.

It has been said that in the last days Satan will revert back to his first lie to mankind "ye shall not shurely die" in order to decieve the elect.

An immortal soul is one step away from the doctrines of reincarnation and soul migration.

Because if your soul is eternal, that means it has existed forever along with God and possibly in other physical incarnations.

Its funny how they dont really get that part in the Sunday school classes.

 

[guibox]

StoveBolts, my old nemesis. :wink: Though I don't fully agree with your reasoning, I must say that at least you make an effort to further define the argument unlike this response:

What was it the Lord said about the Jews. They have eyes to see but they see not. They have ears to hear but they hear not. Well they were not alone in this.

Apparently stating unproven assumptions is more biblical then biblical evidence itself to convince some of these people.

"No! The soul is immortal because Paul says 'to absent from the body is to be present with the Lord!' One verse that proves it! Nevermind all that 'original language' mumbo-jumbo and cross referencing with dozen of texts nonsense!" :roll:

 

[Soma-Sight]

i don't believe the "soul" is in any way "ours". at best, i think it's borrowed and returned to the natural public domain, perhaps multiplied, to be used by future life. i suppose that could be considered a type of immortality.

So you are a dualist and do not believe in the holistic necessity of the body together with soul in order for your life to continue.

Also a common belief among the occult.

Descartes "Meditations" is a classic example of this philosophy.

 

[samuel]

Don't need this twice.

 

[Drew]

I favour the idea that the soul is not immortal, because I like the idea that the "soul" is not so much a "thing" as it is a "phenomena" associated with physical activity in the brain. Lest ye think I believe that its all over at death, I will propose that God, retaining knowledge of our physical details even after we are dust, effectively reconstitutes us "physically" and so our souls spring back into being.

 

[stovebolts]

StoveBolts, my old nemesis. Though I don't fully agree with your reasoning, I must say that at least you make an effort to further define the argument unlike this response:

Nemesis or not, I still call you brother and hold you in good esteem :wink:

Brother guibox, it is not my words, yet only the original Hebrew Text 8-)

God Bless

 

[Soma-Sight]

The reason for my short reply in my last post is easy to understand. I have found it neither profitable or edifying to continue in a discussion where there is no understanding or willingness to do so present.

Hey I am more than willing to hear arguments for the immortality of the soul doctrine.

I just dont find them to be scripturally based.

For the most part they are ideas stemming from eastern occultic traditions that were never part of early Jewish Eschatology.

The evidence for the separation of body and soul is more geared towards experiences of LSD heads than any Bible verse.

Just my take, dont thimk I am condeming you.

 

[Soma-Sight]

Here is an excellent article on this subject for all interested.

http://www.british-israel.ca/immortalsoul.htm

 

[Soma-Sight]

Notice the warning of the apostle Paul, who once personally confronted Greek thinkers on Mars' Hill in ancient Athens (Acts 17:15-34). To the Greeks in Colosse in Asia Minor he wrote:

"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ" (Col. 2:8).

Jesus Christ himself warned of "making the word of God of none effect through your tradition" (Mark 7:13). "In vain they do worship me," he lamented, "teaching for doctrines the commandments of men" (Matt. 15:9).

So what does the Bible really say?

Consider first the teaching of the Old Testament. As we have seen, the Jews living in the Hellenistic world admit they took the immortal soul doctrine from Plato. It is nowhere found in the Hebrew Scriptures.

Notice Genesis 2:7: "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

Consider carefully: Man---formed of the dust of the ground, not out of spirit---"became" a living soul. A soul is what man is. It is not something a man has.

The Hebrew language further proves this point. The Hebrew word translated as "soul" in Genesis 2:7 in the widely used Authorized Version of the Bible is nephesh. Nephesh, in general, designates that which has temporary physical life. It means a creature whose life source comes through breathing. This is the same word used frequently in the first chapter of Genesis and elsewhere in reference to animals.

Notice, for example, Genesis 1:24: "And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature [nephesh] after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so."

Here the word creature is the identical Hebrew word that is used in Genesis 2:7 and throughout the Old Testament for "soul." In biblical usage, a brute beast is also a "soul"!

In Leviticus 21:11, Numbers 6:6, Haggai 2:13 and elsewhere, the word nephesh is even used with reference to a dead body.

Nephesh clearly has nothing whatsoever to do with any sort of immortal soul in man. The soul is not a separate entity from the body. It is the body! Man is a nephesh. He is a soul!

Many additional Old Testament scriptures reveal clearly the mortality ---not the immortality---of the soul. Ezekiel 18:4, 20, for example, declares that a soul can die! Read it for yourself: "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." If the soul were immortal, how could it die? It's a direct contradiction of terms!

No wonder Jewish scholars today have to point to Plato as the origin of the immortal soul doctrine

 

[Soma-Sight]

The words immortal soul are found nowhere in the Bible---Old Testament or New. The word immortal occurs only once in the entire Bible---in I Timothy 1:17, where it refers specifically to Jesus Christ!

The word immortality is found only in the New Testament, where it occurs fewer than half a dozen times. One of those places---I Timothy 6:16---clearly states that, of all humans, Jesus Christ "ONLY hath immortality"! Romans 2:7 admonishes Christians to "SEEK FOR ...immortality." If man already had immortality, he would not have to seek for it!

 

[aiki]

Hello.

I do believe that the soul is eternal. I believe this is made evident in the scriptures.

About the word "nephesh":

While it is true that in the OT this word can be used in reference to a living being (Gen. 2:7), it is not therefore necessarily limited to this particular use. Besides, Genesis 2:7 only tells us what a man is, not what he is not. Ron Rhodes, in his book "Reasoning from the Scriptures with the Jehovah's Witnesses" comments, "...while Genesis 2:7 affirms that man is a living being, it does not deny in any way that man has an immaterial nature."

Genesis 35:18 is an example of "nephesh" being used of a person's immaterial nature:

"And it came to pass as her soul was departing (for she died) that she (Rachel) called his name Ben-oni..."

The word "nephesh", besides being used to refer to living beings, is also used in reference to the seat of the emotions and experiences. One's "nephesh" can be sad (Deut. 28:65), grieved (Job 30:25), in pain (Ps. 13:2), distressed (Gen. 42:21), troubled (Ps. 6:3), and cheered (Ps. 86:4). As Ron Rhodes points out, "Clearly, man's soul can experience a wide range of emotional ups and downs. In this sense, "nephesh" seems to refer to the inner man within the human being. This is consistent with verses like 2 Kings 4:27, where we read, " The man of God said, 'Let her alone, for her soul is troubled within her.'" (nasb) (see also: Ps. 42:6 and Ps. 43:5)

Ezekiel 18:20 "The soul that sins, it shall die..."

This verse makes no explicit distinction about whether it is speaking to the soul as a living being or to the immaterial nature within a man.

Psalm 146:4 - "His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth, in that very day his thoughts perish."

When a man dies he ceases to breathe, his body decays and becomes part of the earth, and his consciousness, just like his body, ceases to be exerted upon a temporal plane. This verse doesn't say that the soul and body are one, however; only that a man's thoughts "perish" at the same time as the decease of the body. What "perish" may mean is not clearly spelled out in this verse. From what other verses in scripture say, it may not mean "the loss of being" as one might suppose. Matthew 10:28, for instance, says, "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." This verse clearly indicates that it is possible to kill the body without killing the soul. Ron Rhodes comments, "What Jesus is saying (in Matthew 10:28), then, is this: 'There is something about you which those who kill you [in your physical being] cannot touch! That something is that aspect of man which continues after the body has been lowered into the grave."

Well, gotta' go. Get back to this later.

Ciao!

In Christ, Aiki.

 

[samuel]

Removed